Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[MrSparkle]

We can use common sense with Kareem. He's there. Even as a old man he was lethal I'm the 80s.

Why do people say that we can't blame LeBron for playing with Wade and Bosh but then say things like "Did you see the help Magic and Bird had?" I've never understood that. My issue with LeBron was that the best player WENT to join up with players rather than have players COME to him.

But why does that matter? If players came to play with him to form a superteam, you'd be fine with it, but because he left a team that couldn't get those players, his efforts are diminished?

If the Cavs had found LeBron his KAJ and Worthy or McCale and Parish, he never leaves Cleveland.

The result is the same: LeBron won a title playing next to great players. Jordan won titles playing next to great players. Magic won titles playing next to great players.

If your problem with it is the process, then I call bull, because this board wouldn't be having this conversation right now if James, Wade and Bosh came here and won titles.

Ultimately, I don't hold it against Lebron for forming the super-teams. Fair enough - he did something a lot of other young/prime athletes wouldn't consider doing: he took a pay-cut to win a ring. Nobody told DeRozan he had to sign the $150m contract, kill most his team's cap options and be forced to perennially lead Toronto against a stronger Cavs team.

I'll make it simple though -- his personality seemed to rub every non-Miami resident on earth the wrong way, and even in his own reflection he regretted acting the way he did. So needless to say, there needs be no explanation: the real reason there's an asterisk next to Miami Lebron is cause he and the rest of the roster were the biggest D-Bags of all-time during those 4 years.

But also, it's fair to say that it's nicer to see a group grow together through some pains and cross the hump, as opposed to a 1 summer super-team. Atleast they lost to Dallas, but it was still a 1 year process. With the Bulls and even these Warriors, the core struggled and stuck together. I mean, a hypothetical here, but what would've been sweeter: seeing the Rose/Deng/Noah/Jimmy/Thibs crew win a single ring in 2014 (assuming no major knee problems ever happened), or having Lebron join Chicago in 2010 and seeing them win it 2-3 times the next 2 seasons? I'd go for the single "home-brew" ring, just as a fan of the game.

The Durant signing was kind of a lateral/best-option-available move. Otherwise, they risked overpaying Barnes and Bogut just to keep the team in tact. That was the first thing I looked at. Shame they had to break up that team, cause they could've won more rings with that starting line-up, but it would make zero sense paying Bogut (injury-prone) and Barnes the big bucks, with Curry's looming super max (not to mention Iguadala and other key bench players also coming off the books). That would've a been a very Pax-thing to do.

[dumbell78]

Zaza definitely pulled a Bruce Bowen on Kawhi today.

[CharityStripe34]

The Leonard injury just SUCKS. Loved seeing the Spurs take it to Golden State and showing them they're not afraid at all. I know the Warriors are a historically great team, but I think the Spurs had a chance to make it a competitive series. Leonard and Aldridge were tearing it up. Heck, if they get a rebound with 90 seconds left or whatever it was and Curry doesn't hit that three, they may have pulled it off.

[kingkirk]

I've read the thread in passing and I believe this series of posts are related to your opinion of LBJ possibly having an equal or better career than MJ. I wanted to make sure that was correct as I actually agree with you somewhat. I don't think LBJ was a better player, but his career is most likely going to be the greater of the 2 careers between the two players when you factor in the amount of success and the longevity.

Pretty much. If LeBron continues at this rate, I think it's entirely possible that he was the better career in terms of sustained success, with Jordan having the greater peak and dominance.

That said I completely agree with HS and I find it disingenuous for you to say that he's implying these guys did something illegal by circumventing the competition. He's not implying that at all. He's implying that these guys took a shortcut to their titles. Leaving in your prime to team up with other guys in their prime and top of their positions is absolutely a short cut. Nothing illegal about it, but it does feel as though it taints their "success" in comparison to the way that other superstars have earned it.

And I understand that winning a title requires really good talent and that LBJ had ever right to do what he did. But that doesn't make the title any less tainted IMO. It absolutely would have felt different all of those guys were drafted to the same team. And yes, the title would seem just as manufactured if it was earned in a Bulls uniform. It would have been enjoyable. But still manufactured.

But see, I don't consider it a shortcut. He won a title at a similar point in his career to when Michael did. Experience wise, they were very similar. LeBron stayed with the Cavs for years. He didn't leave after his first contract to chase the starlight of a bigger market or to join up with other guys when he was 23, he did it after he had been in the league for seven years.

And I don't consider these titles manufactured at all. We talk about ways to in building a title all the time. Free agency, drafting and trades. They're the avenues. He left via free agency and the Heat benefited. They won titles because of it. It's manufactured, but why is it more so than trading or drafting these guys?

We cool with Boston doing it because KG and Ray Allen were traded for, not signed?

That seems weird to me.

[Mech Engineer]

LeBron gave the Cavaliers 7 years to build a good team or get another top player. If they had got another top 20 player like Bosh, he probably would have stayed back in Cleveland or even if they had hired a Riley type GM in 2005.

The Cavs were badly run. In all fairness, Lebron was easier to build around...he likes to pass, defend. Not many stars are like that.

But, by going to Miami he ceded that legacy of being the top player ever. And, Pop's brain fart gave him an extra ring. He needs to win 4 more times to even come in the discussion with MJ.

Durant is not a mentally tough guy. He had a top 10 player with him and choked multiple times. He can win 10 titles and I still consider him as not a mentally tough player.

I am a Bulls can first and an NBA fan second. There is no chance that LeBron or Durant can sniff anything MJ achieved. Durant would have quit basketball if he had faced the physical play of Pistons.

[Lexluthor]

I really do believe the Spurs window has closed this team is not going to beat the Warriors or Cavs.

[Mech Engineer]

I really do believe the Spurs window has closed this team is not going to beat the Warriors or Cavs.

What....the Spurs have a bigger window than both the Cavs and Warriors. Kawhi, Mills are not old. Their young guys are contributing and once they lose their real old guys, they will add better fitting pieces next to Kawhi. They might lose this year
because of Kawhi's injury but they will be back next year.

[kingkirk]

What....the Spurs have a bigger window than both the Cavs and Warriors. Kawhi, Mills are not old. Their young guys are contributing and once they lose their real old guys, they will add better fitting pieces next to Kawhi. They might lose this year
because of Kawhi's injury but they will be back next year.

The Spurs' window isn't closed, but their window isn't more open than Cleveland or Golden State, or have their franchise pillars set for the next 3-4 seasons.

Gasol, Aldridge, Parker, Ginobili and Lee are all in the rotation for San Antonio. They're over 30 and will be out of the league in a few years.

The Spurs have 1-2 more seasons with this group before they have to retool. Their window isn't wider than Cleveland or Golden State, even if their best player is younger than James, Curry and Durant.

[erlim]

The Leonard injury just SUCKS. Loved seeing the Spurs take it to Golden State and showing them they're not afraid at all. I know the Warriors are a historically great team, but I think the Spurs had a chance to make it a competitive series. Leonard and Aldridge were tearing it up. Heck, if they get a rebound with 90 seconds left or whatever it was and Curry doesn't hit that three, they may have pulled it off.

I always got pissed at Zaza, I always felt like he targeted Rose after he came back from injuries. That **** just really inadvertently lived up to his contract and then some.

[Ice Man]

It's good to be Klay. You can get 6 points, 5 fouls, and nobody will remember because your team won. This is why there are superteams. If Jimmy Butler did that, or Russ Westbrook, or James Harden, they would be fried. But Klay does it and all is cool, he can sleep just fine.

And next game if Curry or Durant pee in the bed, then Klay and others will bail them out.

[HomoSapien]

By saying 'circumventing competition', you're implying they did something wrong or illegal. They didn't. They left as free agents. They have that right, just as anyone does. They didn't demand trades. They did everything they could to win titles on their own. It didn't happen.

Well, Maq pointed out how disingenuous this first part was and he's right. I'm not implying it's illegal and for you to jump to that conclusion is silly. The definition of circumventing literally means to avoid something. In this case, it's competition. There's nothing to do with legality here.

And again, no one is saying there's anything "wrong" with it. What's being argued that Lebron's achievements with the Heat were lessened circumventing his primary conference competition.

If LeBron, Wade and Bosh were all drafted by the same team, you wouldn't debating LeBron's greatness. But because he left, we are. That's weird.

That's fair. I wouldn't. It's a double standard.

Yes, I agree with you. It would be better if stars were more dispersed across teams rather than flooding to one or two teams. But that's on the system, not the player.

Why would you detract from a player's legacy because they happen to play in a system that allows them to move?

In order for LeBron to not leave, the Cavs had to draft or trade for his stars. They never did, so he left. You're going to hold it against him for his team not being able to build around him? Why is that LeBron's fault? He can't control that.

And I find a level of hypocrisy to this answer. If LeBron never leaves Cleveland, he never wins a title. Those killing him for leaving would probably be the same ones killing him for never winning a ring.

Again, this has nothing to do with fault. No one is suggesting he be thrown in prison. I'm just arguing that it's a nuance that deserves being mentioned when discussing where LeBron ranks.

[HomoSapien]

Wow, Dan.

You're sure missing a big key point.

Why on earth would any Bulls fan root for the Warriors to beat our record?

I'm a Bulls fan. I wanted to see the Warriors break the Bulls' record. I wanted to see history.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but growing up overseas and being under 30 you most likely weren't a fan of the dynasty Bulls. That's fine, it doesn't make you any less of a fan, but it probably means you don't have an affinity for the Jordan Bulls teams. I sure as hell don't have any feelings for the Jerry Sloan/Van Lier Bulls.

That said, you're certainly in the minority of Bulls fans who actively wanted to see the Warriors beat the Bulls record.

[kingkirk]

Well, Maq pointed out how disingenuous this first part was and he's right. I'm not implying it's illegal and for you to jump to that conclusion is silly. The definition of circumventing literally means to avoid something. In this case, it's competition. There's nothing to do with legality here.

And again, no one is saying there's anything "wrong" with it. What's being argued that Lebron's achievements with the Heat were lessened circumventing his primary conference competition.

And I'm arguing his achievements shouldn't be lessened.

That's fair. I wouldn't. It's a double standard.

Which is my problem with the whole thing and why I think it's hypocritical/doesn't make sense.

Again, this has nothing to do with fault. No one is suggesting he be thrown in prison. I'm just arguing that it's a nuance that deserves being mentioned when discussing where LeBron ranks.

That's fine, but I don't think impacts anything. Or at least it shouldn't. Did KAJ moving from MIlwaukee to LA impact his legacy as one of the GOATs at all? Why does no one talk about Shaq moving from Orlando to LA then to Miami as something that has tarnished his legacy?

The only reason it's a perceived problem for LeBron legacy is he, more than anyone else ever, has the most legitimate shot at dethroning Jordan from the top. We never talk about lesser players jumping ship and winning titles elsewhere. Kevin Garnett is now revered as an NBA champion despite moving teams.

[kingkirk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but growing up overseas and being under 30 you most likely weren't a fan of the dynasty Bulls. That's fine, it doesn't make you any less of a fan, but it probably means you don't have an affinity for the Jordan Bulls teams. I sure as hell don't have any feelings for the Jerry Sloan/Van Lier Bulls.

That said, you're certainly in the minority of Bulls fans who actively wanted to see the Warriors beat the Bulls record.

You're wrong, yes. I was introduced to NBA basketball because of the Jordan Bulls era. I wouldn't be a Bulls fan had Michael not dominated the game and pushed the product into foreign countries.

If I'm in the minority, that's fine. I'm able to detach myself from a record like that. It changes nothing.

[HomoSapien]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but growing up overseas and being under 30 you most likely weren't a fan of the dynasty Bulls. That's fine, it doesn't make you any less of a fan, but it probably means you don't have an affinity for the Jordan Bulls teams. I sure as hell don't have any feelings for the Jerry Sloan/Van Lier Bulls.

That said, you're certainly in the minority of Bulls fans who actively wanted to see the Warriors beat the Bulls record.

You're wrong, yes. I was introduced to NBA basketball because of the Jordan Bulls era. I wouldn't be a Bulls fan had Michael not dominated the game and pushed the product into foreign countries.

If I'm in the minority, that's fine. I'm able to detach myself from a record like that. It changes nothing.

My fault, I was under the assumption that you never saw the dynasty play live.

[Lexluthor]

I really do believe the Spurs window has closed this team is not going to beat the Warriors or Cavs.

What....the Spurs have a bigger window than both the Cavs and Warriors. Kawhi, Mills are not old. Their young guys are contributing and once they lose their real old guys, they will add better fitting pieces next to Kawhi. They might lose this year
because of Kawhi's injury but they will be back next year.

Oh please even if he was healthy they are not going to beat the warriors four our of seven in a playoff series. You have to be perfect to beat the Warriors.

[HomoSapien]

That's fine, but I don't think impacts anything. Or at least it shouldn't. Did KAJ moving from MIlwaukee to LA impact his legacy as one of the GOATs at all? Why does no one talk about Shaq moving from Orlando to LA then to Miami as something that has tarnished his legacy?

The only reason it's a perceived problem for LeBron legacy is he, more than anyone else ever, has the most legitimate shot at dethroning Jordan from the top. We never talk about lesser players jumping ship and winning titles elsewhere. Kevin Garnett is now revered as an NBA champion despite moving teams.

Kareem and Shaq actually went to teams that were worse than the teams they were leaving.

Shaq going to Miami is also different because LA essentially picked Kobe over him. KG was also traded because Minnesota decided it was time to rebuild.

If you don't think there's anything cheap about joining forces with the best players in your conference then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[kingkirk]

Kareem and Shaq actually went to teams that were worse than the teams they were leaving.

Shaq going to Miami is also different because LA essentially picked Kobe over him. KG was also traded because Minnesota decided it was time to rebuild.

If you don't think there's anything cheap about joining forces with the best players in your conference then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess I just don't understand why people are fine to justify things if players are drafted or traded, but the moment it comes to moving in free agency, it's viewed as a sin of sorts.

It's weird.

[kingkirk]

Evidence from the GB.

As long as LeBron is on the Cavs people will always believe this.

Not true, everyone here loves Lebron including me. I am his biggest fan.

We've been lied to for years.

[HomoSapien]

Kareem and Shaq actually went to teams that were worse than the teams they were leaving.

Shaq going to Miami is also different because LA essentially picked Kobe over him. KG was also traded because Minnesota decided it was time to rebuild.

If you don't think there's anything cheap about joining forces with the best players in your conference then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess I just don't understand why people are fine to justify things if players are drafted or traded, but the moment it comes to moving in free agency, it's viewed as a sin of sorts.

It's weird.

For me the the difference is this:

If you're trying to be the best, your goal should be to beat the best. If you're colluding with the best, you're basically saying you're unsure that you could beat the best. Again, I'm not saying the rings don't count, but it's part of the discussion with ranking players.

If they were drafted together, it was organic and out of his control. To win with those guys, meant they grew together. But to join them when they're all in the middle of their primes is well... it's a short cut.