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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

cjbulls
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1521 » by cjbulls » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:58 pm

ZOMG wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
It's not about "wanting" to play big. In the pros, you play the way your team's analytics people tell you to play - particulary if you're not a star/superstar. Yes, that's an oversimplification, but there's a lot of truth in it.

Big guys are taking threes because they're being told to take threes. If you can regularly make that shot, it's the best shot in basketball, and it doesn't matter what we think. Plus it's a way to combat the changed defensive rules of the NBA by creating space in the middle.

Doesn't make any sense to keep crying about "soft big men wanting to be guards" and shooting from the perimeter. That's the game now.


Nobody on the 76ers wants Joel Embiid shooting threes except for Joel Embiid. And I guess if you had Shaq now you’d tell him to start practicing his threes, right?

Wiseman’s talent is his combo of length, strength and athleticism. Those advantages are eliminated when he’s 25 feet from the hoop.

3 point shooting is important, but not for everyone. Unfortunately you’re still stuck thinking about the game in a static fashion (threes!) instead of understanding how unbalanced it is right now and where the alternative advantages can be found.


That's why I said "In the pros, you play the way your team's analytics people tell you to play - particulary if you're not a star/superstar".

Embiid is a star and they always get more leeway to do stupid s**t. Still, although Embiid isn't a good outside shooter, it doesn't hurt him to project at least some threat from the perimeter.

As for Shaq... that's why I said "If you can regularly make that shot, it's the best shot in basketball". And this remains true. The big guys who can shoot SHOULD be taking threes.

These days, a big who can't shoot needs to be really, really good at other things (Shaq was the most physically dominant player in the entire league). This is why players like Wendell are close to useless. He probably has the least trade value of all the Bulls who play regular minutes. The fact that quite a few Bulls fans seem to want to build around him boggles the mind.

If Carter doesn't develop a more or less dependable outside shot before his rookie deal runs out, he's in danger of being out of the league.


You’re changing the subject of my original post that you objected to. I wished that big men like Wiseman would play to their strengths and you wanted them to take 3s because analytics. Now you’re sidestepping it all.

That Carter take is quite a few steps too far as well

So to get back on topic, do you think Wiseman should be focusing on 3s or playing effectively inside/near the paint?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1522 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:06 pm

cjbulls wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Nobody on the 76ers wants Joel Embiid shooting threes except for Joel Embiid. And I guess if you had Shaq now you’d tell him to start practicing his threes, right?

Wiseman’s talent is his combo of length, strength and athleticism. Those advantages are eliminated when he’s 25 feet from the hoop.

3 point shooting is important, but not for everyone. Unfortunately you’re still stuck thinking about the game in a static fashion (threes!) instead of understanding how unbalanced it is right now and where the alternative advantages can be found.


That's why I said "In the pros, you play the way your team's analytics people tell you to play - particulary if you're not a star/superstar".

Embiid is a star and they always get more leeway to do stupid s**t. Still, although Embiid isn't a good outside shooter, it doesn't hurt him to project at least some threat from the perimeter.

As for Shaq... that's why I said "If you can regularly make that shot, it's the best shot in basketball". And this remains true. The big guys who can shoot SHOULD be taking threes.

These days, a big who can't shoot needs to be really, really good at other things (Shaq was the most physically dominant player in the entire league). This is why players like Wendell are close to useless. He probably has the least trade value of all the Bulls who play regular minutes. The fact that quite a few Bulls fans seem to want to build around him boggles the mind.

If Carter doesn't develop a more or less dependable outside shot before his rookie deal runs out, he's in danger of being out of the league.


You’re changing the subject of my original post that you objected to. I wished that big men like Wiseman would play to their strengths and you wanted them to take 3s because analytics. Now you’re sidestepping it all.

That Carter take is quite a few steps too far as well

So to get back on topic, do you think Wiseman should be focusing on 3s or playing effectively inside/near the paint?


The gist of my posts is that Wiseman is far less valuable in today's NBA than his likely draft position would imply. I don't envy the GM who has to make that decision.

It's one thing to ALSO be able to play in or near the paint. It's another thing to ONLY be able to do that.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1523 » by Tetlak » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:16 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Tetlak wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
That's why I said "In the pros, you play the way your team's analytics people tell you to play - particulary if you're not a star/superstar".

Embiid is a star and they always get more leeway to do stupid s**t. Still, although Embiid isn't a good outside shooter, it doesn't hurt him to project at least some threat from the perimeter.

As for Shaq... that's why I said "If you can regularly make that shot, it's the best shot in basketball". And this remains true. The big guys who can shoot SHOULD be taking threes.

These days, a big who can't shoot needs to be really, really good at other things (Shaq was the most physically dominant player in the entire league). This is why players like Wendell are close to useless. He probably has the least trade value of all the Bulls who play regular minutes. The fact that quite a few Bulls fans seem to want to build around him boggles the mind.

If Carter doesn't develop a more or less dependable outside shot before his rookie deal runs out, he's in danger of being out of the league.


The bolded is an absolutely absurd take.

Gobert, Drummond, Tristan, Whiteside all averaged over 30 mpg.

Harrell, Steven Adams, Jared Allen, Derrick Favors, Mitch, Zeller, Deandre, WCS all averaged over 20 mpg.

The list of centers who can't shoot yet played between 10-20 mpg is insanely high.

I'm not sure what you think you're watching. Wendell will not be out of the league unless he gets hounded by the injury bug constantly.


You listed a whole bunch of great shotblockers, rimrunners, shotmakers and intimidators. Wendell is none of these things.

And yet some of these guys' teams still couldn't wait to get rid of them.


Ok. I don't want to spend too much time on this so I'll pick the most similar player to Wendell in the 30 mpg bracket.

Tristan Thompson.

Wendell blocks more shots, dunks the ball more, has the same career drtg despite never playing on a good team, and has significantly better dbpm among other things.

You can look at players in each of the brackets I listed above and find that they are objectively worse than Wendell at the things you listed.

I am not a Wendell fan by any means but you're doing the man wrong.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1524 » by gobullschi » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:38 pm

Wiseman’s value is based on the projection that his offensive game will develop into something more than rim running, lobs, & put backs. His FT% is an encouraging sign that an outside shot may develop.

In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract. If Wiseman can’t prove he has one of those abilities, he shouldn’t be a top 5 pick.

This is what makes WCJ so frustrating. He was supposed to be shooting threes and have above average passing skills. So far, none of those things have materialized.
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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1525 » by StunnerKO » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:07 pm

Yikes


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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1526 » by cjbulls » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:12 pm

gobullschi wrote:Wiseman’s value is based on the projection that his offensive game will develop into something more than rim running, lobs, & put backs. His FT% is an encouraging sign that an outside shot may develop.

In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract. If Wiseman can’t prove he has one of those abilities, he shouldn’t be a top 5 pick.

This is what makes WCJ so frustrating. He was supposed to be shooting threes and have above average passing skills. So far, none of those things have materialized.


This is a misnomer. Embiid taking no outside shots is a max player.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1527 » by cjbulls » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:16 pm

ZOMG wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
That's why I said "In the pros, you play the way your team's analytics people tell you to play - particulary if you're not a star/superstar".

Embiid is a star and they always get more leeway to do stupid s**t. Still, although Embiid isn't a good outside shooter, it doesn't hurt him to project at least some threat from the perimeter.

As for Shaq... that's why I said "If you can regularly make that shot, it's the best shot in basketball". And this remains true. The big guys who can shoot SHOULD be taking threes.

These days, a big who can't shoot needs to be really, really good at other things (Shaq was the most physically dominant player in the entire league). This is why players like Wendell are close to useless. He probably has the least trade value of all the Bulls who play regular minutes. The fact that quite a few Bulls fans seem to want to build around him boggles the mind.

If Carter doesn't develop a more or less dependable outside shot before his rookie deal runs out, he's in danger of being out of the league.


You’re changing the subject of my original post that you objected to. I wished that big men like Wiseman would play to their strengths and you wanted them to take 3s because analytics. Now you’re sidestepping it all.

That Carter take is quite a few steps too far as well

So to get back on topic, do you think Wiseman should be focusing on 3s or playing effectively inside/near the paint?


The gist of my posts is that Wiseman is far less valuable in today's NBA than his likely draft position would imply. I don't envy the GM who has to make that decision.

It's one thing to ALSO be able to play in or near the paint. It's another thing to ONLY be able to do that.


So Shaq and Ewing and prime Dwight Howard wouldn’t make it in today’s NBA?

Or Rudy Gobert for that matter?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1528 » by bigsexy70 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:19 pm

I’m very much leaning towards a trade back. I don’t love any of these prospects. So if we could trade back to 8 or something and get a pick and still tack Okoro or Halliburton to Hayes I’m ecstatic. (Also just rediscovered my login so after like 4 years I’m happy to be back with my people on here!!!!!!!!)
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1529 » by JohnnyTapwater » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:27 pm

StunnerKO wrote:Yikes


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Why did he do that with his shot?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1530 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:41 pm

StunnerKO wrote:Yikes


Read on Twitter
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Damn. The original tweet with the video was deleted. Hopefully they didn't **** it up too bad
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1531 » by Nate3carp » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:46 pm

100proof wrote:
Nate3carp wrote:
100proof wrote:
You can get him much later in the draft, if that is who you all like you should trade down.

Which brings me to why I am here, what would it take to get the #4 pick?

I think it completely depends on how far back we are trading (or if it’s out of the draft completely). Are you asking as a hypothetical, or as a Celts fan specifically?


I guess both?

I know that Kira Lewis is slotted, in most drafts, to be available at the 14th or even later spots. Most of Celtics fans have him as our pick, heck even the mock voted draft in the draft board has Kira as being the Celtics pick.


For me at least, if that is who the Bulls wanted, it would make sense to trade down, add another asset and save the money of the draft position. Its what Danny did with Tatum. Traded down, saved money, got tatum and got what turned into Romeo Langford.

I would love the Celtics to be able to grab 1 of Wiseman, Okongwu, Okoro or Haliburton as those are our needs, so to me at least, a deal between Bulls and Celtics would make sense. You all get your guy, we get ours. Question is what is the cost?

Hayward, Romeo, #14 and a future first
for
Porter, Satoransky and #4?

Past 2 seasons have Hayward and Porter a wash statistically, only that Otto has only played 56 games and Hayward has played 124 games.

Sato can give Celtics a little vet depth, Romeo give you guys more youth

Anyways just a rambling thought I guess.

That is basically the exact trade I was thinking of. Wasn't sure if Celts would be more inclined to do a future pick or #26 this year. From Bulls perspective, I'd prefer a future pick.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1532 » by 100proof » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:01 pm

Nate3carp wrote:
100proof wrote:
Nate3carp wrote:I think it completely depends on how far back we are trading (or if it’s out of the draft completely). Are you asking as a hypothetical, or as a Celts fan specifically?


I guess both?

I know that Kira Lewis is slotted, in most drafts, to be available at the 14th or even later spots. Most of Celtics fans have him as our pick, heck even the mock voted draft in the draft board has Kira as being the Celtics pick.


For me at least, if that is who the Bulls wanted, it would make sense to trade down, add another asset and save the money of the draft position. Its what Danny did with Tatum. Traded down, saved money, got tatum and got what turned into Romeo Langford.

I would love the Celtics to be able to grab 1 of Wiseman, Okongwu, Okoro or Haliburton as those are our needs, so to me at least, a deal between Bulls and Celtics would make sense. You all get your guy, we get ours. Question is what is the cost?

Hayward, Romeo, #14 and a future first
for
Porter, Satoransky and #4?

Past 2 seasons have Hayward and Porter a wash statistically, only that Otto has only played 56 games and Hayward has played 124 games.

Sato can give Celtics a little vet depth, Romeo give you guys more youth

Anyways just a rambling thought I guess.

That is basically the exact trade I was thinking of. Wasn't sure if Celts would be more inclined to do a future pick or #26 this year. From Bulls perspective, I'd prefer a future pick.


I think from Celtics it would be the same preference.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1533 » by jump » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:01 pm

Not sure that is such a great trade. Otto and Hayward are sort of a wash, better if Hayward is healthier than Otto. Sato v Langford? I'm not sure about this either. Yes, Romeo might become a more valuable player IF he reaches is potential. Didn't show much in his rookie season. So basically, you're trading #4 for #14 and a late 1st round pick in the future. Is that a good deal? Meh. That will be too late to get Vassell and probably Lewis or Nesmith. I don't think this is a good trade.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1534 » by Chicagoat » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:49 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
StunnerKO wrote:Yikes


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Read on Twitter
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Damn. The original tweet with the video was deleted. Hopefully they didn't **** it up too bad




I found the video
AKME? More like MEAK with how they're afraid to make a move to push us in one direction.

Continuity :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1535 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:00 pm

Chicagoat wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
StunnerKO wrote:Yikes


Read on Twitter
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Read on Twitter
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Damn. The original tweet with the video was deleted. Hopefully they didn't **** it up too bad




I found the video


Why are they teaching these guys to travel?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1536 » by Pax for Prez » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:34 pm

Latest Mocks Drafts (Top 4)

Ringer: Edwards, Avdija, Ball and Hayes
SI: Edwards, Wiseman, Ball and Avdija

Links:
https://nbadraft.theringer.com/
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/10/14/nba-mock-draft-projections-post-finals
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1537 » by TheFinishSniper » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:14 pm

Vassell is off my board. What they did to you and your shot... Goddamn.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1538 » by PlayerUp » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:50 pm

cjbulls wrote:This isn’t the nfl draft. Trades don’t come together that easily. Boston has been trying to package picks for two years with little success.


Boston has been trying to package picks to move up into the lottery. Big difference between moving up to #20 and moving up into the mid lottery.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1539 » by SfBull » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:11 pm

PaKii94 wrote:I'm very meh on advija now. He doesn't pop out for me. He will probably be a good role player but then I'd rather have vassell cause he can be an even better role player

You can be right about him but where we'll find a player above role level at #4?
I'm not so enthusiastic about this draft.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1540 » by SfBull » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:20 pm

Almost Retired wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Both Hayes and Deni both could easily be busts. They both have major flaws in their game and none of us should be sold on either of them. In fact it would not surprise me if picks 1-7 are all busts and the picks 8-20 turn out to be decent picks.

Onyeka Okongwu, Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell are the safest picks in my opinion. Think all 3 can be quality NBA starters and I doubt anyone would argue otherwise.

Kira Lewis is the gem prospect in my opinion but I think the mocks are wrong and he'll go in the lottery. Poku could be the poor mans version of Giannis of this draft. There are also other potential gem prospects such as Tyrell Terry.

Overall trading down makes sense but surely every team in the lottery will be looking to do the same thing which makes it seem less likely we can pull off a trade moving down in this draft.


Despite some reservations if Deni is there at #4 I would take him. He could be quite a mismatch at SF. His playmaking abilities would make everyone else on the court that much better. From what I read he is an extremely hard worker. I think it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he could make great strides from his first training camp to his second season. He could get token minutes if OPJ stays healthy. Then let OPJ walk after the season. The new management crew wants to put more emphasis on player development. That's music to me ears because I've been disappointed in the devolopment of our players for years now. And we've been ill served by the team's former medical staff.

However Deni might not be there at #4. Some mocks have him going as high as #1 to Minny. I hope not. But we have to have a plan. I really like Vassel as a future glue-guy, 3&D starter by his 2nd year. #4 is probably too high for Vassel, but not by much. I don't see any great trading down possibilities except the one someone mentioned earlier with us trading #4 to Atlanta for #6 and Huerter. I'd do that deal. Not sure they would.

A final point. I see that several mocks have us now taking Toppin. I hope that's not the case. We need wings who can defend and hit open shots, or a playmaking wing like Deni. We have enough front court and back court players. With question marks attached to every prospect this year we might as well draft for need.

Can you send links from these mocks picking Deni at #1?I didn't find any of that.

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