2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[SfBull]

Both Hayes and Deni both could easily be busts. They both have major flaws in their game and none of us should be sold on either of them. In fact it would not surprise me if picks 1-7 are all busts and the picks 8-20 turn out to be decent picks.

Onyeka Okongwu, Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell are the safest picks in my opinion. Think all 3 can be quality NBA starters and I doubt anyone would argue otherwise.

Kira Lewis is the gem prospect in my opinion but I think the mocks are wrong and he'll go in the lottery. Poku could be the poor mans version of Giannis of this draft. There are also other potential gem prospects such as Tyrell Terry.

Overall trading down makes sense but surely every team in the lottery will be looking to do the same thing which makes it seem less likely we can pull off a trade moving down in this draft.

Despite some reservations if Deni is there at #4 I would take him. He could be quite a mismatch at SF. His playmaking abilities would make everyone else on the court that much better. From what I read he is an extremely hard worker. I think it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he could make great strides from his first training camp to his second season. He could get token minutes if OPJ stays healthy. Then let OPJ walk after the season. The new management crew wants to put more emphasis on player development. That's music to me ears because I've been disappointed in the devolopment of our players for years now. And we've been ill served by the team's former medical staff.

However Deni might not be there at #4. Some mocks have him going as high as #1 to Minny. I hope not. But we have to have a plan. I really like Vassel as a future glue-guy, 3&D starter by his 2nd year. #4 is probably too high for Vassel, but not by much. I don't see any great trading down possibilities except the one someone mentioned earlier with us trading #4 to Atlanta for #6 and Huerter. I'd do that deal. Not sure they would.

A final point. I see that several mocks have us now taking Toppin. I hope that's not the case. We need wings who can defend and hit open shots, or a playmaking wing like Deni. We have enough front court and back court players. With question marks attached to every prospect this year we might as well draft for need.

I am probably way off here, but I think that folks who love Deni are wearing Luca-colored glasses. I see Deni as a career bench guy. He is good with the basket ball, but nothing says elite about this guy. Can make lay-ups and mid-range shots against sub-NBA talent, but not a great shooter, one hand dominant, he may be ok as a defender, but not elite. I much prefer a guy like Vassell who looks to be an elite defender who can already shoot. Coming in as a good shooter is HUGE...I'm just not the guy who buys into betting that guys will become great shooters.

I'd do #4 for #6 plus Huerter in a second...no way we get that deal. I really hope ATL is not interested in keeping Collins because he wants a MAX deal, and strike a deal for him (like #4 plus Lauri).

I might look at #4 for #8, #27 and #36 from NY. Most years I wouldn't, but I think there may be a gem in the late 1st or early 2nd.

NY would be really desperate for trading 3 picks for a #4 in a weak draft.Why wouldn't they do the scouting work themselves looking for some sleeper at #27 or #36?

[SfBull]

https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

Deep analysis about Deni, I'm just curious to see if he'll slip like Michael Porter Jr in 2018 with more scouting data like that.

[SfBull]

2020 NBA Draft rumors roundup: Minnesota still looking to trade out of No. 1

Link:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/10/14/2020-nba-draft-rumors-roundup-minnesota-still-looking-to-trade-out-of-no-1/

• Where the doubt comes in is with Wiseman is if he can be a star player. A few around the league say yes, but there is a lot of concern he will not be happy in his role in the league. The concern is he wants the ball, wants to face up and attack like Giannis Antetokounmpo or Anthony Davis, and Wiseman simply isn’t that good. He’s not going to be that guy at the NBA level. Would he continue to work hard in a lesser role?

This seems like my biggest concern. Who does Wiseman see himself as and what happens when he isn’t allowed to play that inefficient way?

Still worth the risk at #4, but it would be nice to go back to a world where big men wanted to play big.

It's not about "wanting" to play big. In the pros, you play the way your team's analytics people tell you to play - particulary if you're not a star/superstar. Yes, that's an oversimplification, but there's a lot of truth in it.

Big guys are taking threes because they're being told to take threes. If you can regularly make that shot, it's the best shot in basketball, and it doesn't matter what we think. Plus it's a way to combat the changed defensive rules of the NBA by creating space in the middle.

Doesn't make any sense to keep crying about "soft big men wanting to be guards" and shooting from the perimeter. That's the game now.

Which is worse to watch now than the old game IMO.But the young guys certainly love that "evolution".

[Nate3carp]

Not sure that is such a great trade. Otto and Hayward are sort of a wash, better if Hayward is healthier than Otto. Sato v Langford? I'm not sure about this either. Yes, Romeo might become a more valuable player IF he reaches is potential. Didn't show much in his rookie season. So basically, you're trading #4 for #14 and a late 1st round pick in the future. Is that a good deal? Meh. That will be too late to get Vassell and probably Lewis or Nesmith. I don't think this is a good trade.

That’s fair. Romeo would probably be considered a top 10 pick in this draft, potentially top 5. But yea, didn’t get much run on a good Celtics team. I think he had some injuries, but if Celtics are fine moving off him, it might say something. I think I’d probably still do it, as I still have high hopes for Romeo (IU fan admittedly), but would hope for top end protections on the future pick (such as it rolling over for a few years if it’s too low).

[JohnnyTapwater]

I'm on that ledge alone - I know

Read on Twitter

[LateNight]

I'm on that ledge alone - I know

Read on Twitter

Nah - I see the upside there. Definitely intriguing, but you have to believe he’s improved

[gobullschi]

Wiseman’s value is based on the projection that his offensive game will develop into something more than rim running, lobs, & put backs. His FT% is an encouraging sign that an outside shot may develop.

In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract. If Wiseman can’t prove he has one of those abilities, he shouldn’t be a top 5 pick.

This is what makes WCJ so frustrating. He was supposed to be shooting threes and have above average passing skills. So far, none of those things have materialized.

This is a misnomer. Embiid taking no outside shots is a max player.

Embiid’s footwork is generational. This is a bad comparison. Wiseman hasn’t shown that type of ability.

Embiid is shooting 80% from the free throw line. He has a jump shot... maybe not consistently from three, but the rest of his game is so elite, it doesn’t matter.

[cjbulls]

Wiseman’s value is based on the projection that his offensive game will develop into something more than rim running, lobs, & put backs. His FT% is an encouraging sign that an outside shot may develop.

In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract. If Wiseman can’t prove he has one of those abilities, he shouldn’t be a top 5 pick.

This is what makes WCJ so frustrating. He was supposed to be shooting threes and have above average passing skills. So far, none of those things have materialized.

This is a misnomer. Embiid taking no outside shots is a max player.

Embiid’s footwork is generational. This is a bad comparison. Wiseman hasn’t shown that type of ability.

Embiid is shooting 80% from the free throw line. He has a jump shot... maybe not consistently from three, but the rest of his game is so elite, it doesn’t matter.

You said, "In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract."

I gave an example why that's not true. Now you want to add more exceptions to your list?

Rudy Gobert is up next. Not worth a second contract?

Wiseman doesn't need to be the best center in the NBA to be worth the #4 pick in this draft.

[gobullschi]

This is a misnomer. Embiid taking no outside shots is a max player.

Embiid’s footwork is generational. This is a bad comparison. Wiseman hasn’t shown that type of ability.

Embiid is shooting 80% from the free throw line. He has a jump shot... maybe not consistently from three, but the rest of his game is so elite, it doesn’t matter.

You said, "In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract."

I gave an example why that's not true. Now you want to add more exceptions to your list?

Rudy Gobert is up next. Not worth a second contract?

Wiseman doesn't need to be the best center in the NBA to be worth the #4 pick in this draft.

Really? Name your top 10 centers in the NBA. All of them can shoot or pass. Embiid and Gobert are more the exception to the rule and that because they are so elite in other areas. Wiseman doesn't have the footwork of a guy like Embiid and doesn’t have the freakish length of Gobert.

The reason I say it isn’t worth a “second contract” is because the current NBA is built on guard and forward play AND building a ‘big three’. Teams can’t waste cap space on a center unless they’re going to be elite players (Jokic/Embiid). The other important factor is how cheaply you can fill the center position with rim running, defensive-minded centers. (Dwight Howard, Javale McGee, Daniel Theis, PJ Tucker)

Wiseman’s skill set is based on using his quickness (ala Chris Bosh). Having a jump shot will be critical to his success in the NBA. I’m not opposed to drafting Wiseman, but if he never develops an outside shot, special passing ability, or Embiid like footwork than the Bulls wasted a draft pick because those players can be signed for pennies.

[cjbulls]

Embiid’s footwork is generational. This is a bad comparison. Wiseman hasn’t shown that type of ability.

Embiid is shooting 80% from the free throw line. He has a jump shot... maybe not consistently from three, but the rest of his game is so elite, it doesn’t matter.

You said, "In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract."

I gave an example why that's not true. Now you want to add more exceptions to your list?

Rudy Gobert is up next. Not worth a second contract?

Wiseman doesn't need to be the best center in the NBA to be worth the #4 pick in this draft.

Really? Name your top 10 centers in the NBA. All of them can shoot or pass. Embiid and Gobert are more the exception to the rule and that because they are so elite in other areas. Wiseman doesn't have the footwork of a guy like Embiid and doesn’t have the freakish length of Gobert.

The reason I say it isn’t worth a “second contract” is because the current NBA is built on guard and forward play AND building a ‘big three’. Teams can’t waste cap space on a center unless they’re going to be elite players (Jokic/Embiid). The other important factor is how cheaply you can fill the center position with rim running, defensive-minded centers. (Dwight Howard, Javale McGee, Daniel Theis, PJ Tucker)

Wiseman’s skill set is based on using his quickness (ala Chris Bosh). Having a jump shot will be critical to his success in the NBA. I’m not opposed to drafting Wiseman, but if he never develops an outside shot, special passing ability, or Embiid like footwork than the Bulls wasted a draft pick because those players can be signed for pennies.

So you have a list of guys, and then make excuses for the ones that don't fit. What about Whiteside (with a good attitude), Drummond, Sabonis, Steven Adams. You also have prime Deandre Jordan and prime Clint Capela These are all highly productive players and Wiseman is a cut above almost all of them with his length/athleticism combo.

What are you going to do when Wiseman is a good center. "All centers need to pass and shoot, except for Embiid's footwork, Gobert's length and Wiseman's athleticism."

Just admit you overstated the situation and move on. A center that can shoot effectively is nice-to-have, but not required if they can make up for it in other areas.

[gobullschi]

You said, "In today’s NBA, centers need to have an efficient outside shot or elite passing ability (plus defense) to be worth a second contract."

I gave an example why that's not true. Now you want to add more exceptions to your list?

Rudy Gobert is up next. Not worth a second contract?

Wiseman doesn't need to be the best center in the NBA to be worth the #4 pick in this draft.

Really? Name your top 10 centers in the NBA. All of them can shoot or pass. Embiid and Gobert are more the exception to the rule and that because they are so elite in other areas. Wiseman doesn't have the footwork of a guy like Embiid and doesn’t have the freakish length of Gobert.

The reason I say it isn’t worth a “second contract” is because the current NBA is built on guard and forward play AND building a ‘big three’. Teams can’t waste cap space on a center unless they’re going to be elite players (Jokic/Embiid). The other important factor is how cheaply you can fill the center position with rim running, defensive-minded centers. (Dwight Howard, Javale McGee, Daniel Theis, PJ Tucker)

Wiseman’s skill set is based on using his quickness (ala Chris Bosh). Having a jump shot will be critical to his success in the NBA. I’m not opposed to drafting Wiseman, but if he never develops an outside shot, special passing ability, or Embiid like footwork than the Bulls wasted a draft pick because those players can be signed for pennies.

So you have a list of guys, and then make excuses for the ones that don't fit. What about Whiteside (with a good attitude), Drummond, Sabonis, Steven Adams. You also have prime Deandre Jordan and prime Clint Capela These are all highly productive players and Wiseman is a cut above almost all of them with his length/athleticism combo.

What are you going to do when Wiseman is a good center. "All centers need to pass and shoot, except for Embiid's footwork, Gobert's length and Wiseman's athleticism."

Just admit you overstated the situation and move on. A center that can shoot effectively is nice-to-have, but not required if they can make up for it in other areas.

If I have to allocate the teams cap space towards specific positions, the center position comes last. I would rather pay Dwight Howard 2 million dollars than Steven Adams/Clint Capela 25 million.

The players you named are solid NBA players, I just don’t value that position as highly as you do. It’s not just me either. Look around the league. Teams want centers that aren’t liabilities on offense. Maybe I generalized offensive ability with shooting the ball and passing the ball too much?

[TeamMan]

https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

Deep analysis about Deni, I'm just curious to see if he'll slip like Michael Porter Jr in 2018 with more scouting data like that.

MPJ had a back injury and did not play most of the season in college.

It's not the same.

[SfBull]

https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

Deep analysis about Deni, I'm just curious to see if he'll slip like Michael Porter Jr in 2018 with more scouting data like that.

MPJ had a back injury and did not play most of the season in college.

It's not the same.

Yes it´s not the same,just pointing out how Deni´s stock can fall when and if that type of scouting information comes around,

[cjbulls]

Really? Name your top 10 centers in the NBA. All of them can shoot or pass. Embiid and Gobert are more the exception to the rule and that because they are so elite in other areas. Wiseman doesn't have the footwork of a guy like Embiid and doesn’t have the freakish length of Gobert.

The reason I say it isn’t worth a “second contract” is because the current NBA is built on guard and forward play AND building a ‘big three’. Teams can’t waste cap space on a center unless they’re going to be elite players (Jokic/Embiid). The other important factor is how cheaply you can fill the center position with rim running, defensive-minded centers. (Dwight Howard, Javale McGee, Daniel Theis, PJ Tucker)

Wiseman’s skill set is based on using his quickness (ala Chris Bosh). Having a jump shot will be critical to his success in the NBA. I’m not opposed to drafting Wiseman, but if he never develops an outside shot, special passing ability, or Embiid like footwork than the Bulls wasted a draft pick because those players can be signed for pennies.

So you have a list of guys, and then make excuses for the ones that don't fit. What about Whiteside (with a good attitude), Drummond, Sabonis, Steven Adams. You also have prime Deandre Jordan and prime Clint Capela These are all highly productive players and Wiseman is a cut above almost all of them with his length/athleticism combo.

What are you going to do when Wiseman is a good center. "All centers need to pass and shoot, except for Embiid's footwork, Gobert's length and Wiseman's athleticism."

Just admit you overstated the situation and move on. A center that can shoot effectively is nice-to-have, but not required if they can make up for it in other areas.

If I have to allocate the teams cap space towards specific positions, the center position comes last. I would rather pay Dwight Howard 2 million dollars than Steven Adams/Clint Capela 25 million.

The players you named are solid NBA players, I just don’t value that position as highly as you do. It’s not just me either. Look around the league. Teams want centers that aren’t liabilities on offense. Maybe I generalized offensive ability with shooting the ball and passing the ball too much?

The point of the draft is to take the best possible player. So even if you don’t value the position as highly, a good/great center is worth more than a middling guard/wing. You’re artificially limiting your options otherwise.

And you can play that salary game with anyone too. I’d rather have Lou Williams at 8 million than Russell Westbrook at 38 million.

[gobullschi]

So you have a list of guys, and then make excuses for the ones that don't fit. What about Whiteside (with a good attitude), Drummond, Sabonis, Steven Adams. You also have prime Deandre Jordan and prime Clint Capela These are all highly productive players and Wiseman is a cut above almost all of them with his length/athleticism combo.

What are you going to do when Wiseman is a good center. "All centers need to pass and shoot, except for Embiid's footwork, Gobert's length and Wiseman's athleticism."

Just admit you overstated the situation and move on. A center that can shoot effectively is nice-to-have, but not required if they can make up for it in other areas.

If I have to allocate the teams cap space towards specific positions, the center position comes last. I would rather pay Dwight Howard 2 million dollars than Steven Adams/Clint Capela 25 million.

The players you named are solid NBA players, I just don’t value that position as highly as you do. It’s not just me either. Look around the league. Teams want centers that aren’t liabilities on offense. Maybe I generalized offensive ability with shooting the ball and passing the ball too much?

The point of the draft is to take the best possible player. So even if you don’t value the position as highly, a good/great center is worth more than a middling guard/wing. You’re artificially limiting your options otherwise.

And you can play that salary game with anyone too. I’d rather have Lou Williams at 8 million than Russell Westbrook at 38 million.

Your not comprehending my point.

Look at the centers that started in the NBA finals over the last decade. JaVale McGee, Tristan Thompson, Dwight Howard (old version), Chris Anderson, Serge Ibaka (old version), etc. Most of them are defensive centers with limited offensive ability that were signed on cheap contracts. Why? It's because it makes more sense to allocate your cap towards a player that isn't a liability on the offensive end and you can find these guys for a fraction of the price than guys like Lou Williams.

I never said that the Bulls shouldn't draft James Wiseman. I actually like him as a prospect more than Wendell Carter Jr. The issue I have with drafting James Wiseman is his relatively unknown skill set and how it will translate against NBA men. He only played 3 games this season where he went up against South Carolina State, UIC, & Oregon and was matched up against guys that were 6'8".

In order for James Wiseman to be worth a top 5 pick for ANY team, his offensive skill set need major development. There are some encouraging signs based on his shooting form and free throw percentage (70%). The Bulls just need to be confident their drafting a player that will develop into a guy that's closer to Joel Embiid than Nerlens Noel.

[Bulldog23]

I like Kira Lewis, his stats really pop out at me. I look for guards that can defend, pass, rebound and score. He hits all those marks at at a good level. The Bulls have two good big men...so finding guards that can set them up and score off them is important, run the pick and roll. I keep looking for guards similar Denver. Maxey, Kira, and Hayes fall in that category for me.

[Leslie Forman]

I'm on that ledge alone - I know

Read on Twitter

Nah, he's a toolsy guy and the big stat difference between him and Lamelo isn't so big when you take their situational context into account.

[chefo]

https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

Deep analysis about Deni, I'm just curious to see if he'll slip like Michael Porter Jr in 2018 with more scouting data like that.

I hope every exec picking in the first 3 loves that report and pass on the kid so that the Bulls get a shot at him.

Deni is as tall as WCJ for some context. 6'9 guys with his speed and vision are not a dime a dozen. He also has legit decent ball-handling skills. His average stats are meaningless because his coach used him sparingly as a warm body the first half of the season and in the Euroleague before the break. Then, surprise, surprise, he did better when he got more usage.

Yeah, he'll probably top out at 34-35% 3 point shooter and 65%-67% FT shooter, but so what? Guys his size who can ball handle in the P&R and on the break usually do well, especially for how strong he appears to be for somebody who's still a scrawny teen. If Lauri had his ball-handling and foot work, and his tenacity, as a 4th year NBA player, he'd be a top 15 player in the league.

When Deni inevitably puts on another 10 pounds of upper body strength, he'd be nightmare to guard when driving. Just look at his videos and highlights. He knows he's a big guy that can bully other players. I saw several times him bumping off the other team's bigs on drives. Again, he's just a teenager playing against grown men. If he ever learns (and is allowed to get away with) the LeBron stiff-arm semi-extended elbow when driving--good luck with guarding with anything but another really big wing, and there are not that many of these either.

I guess I just like guys who understand and are able to take what the D gives them. If you're open, shoot. If you're guarded by a small bully ball him. If you drive, play big and welcome contact. When you handle, look to pass when doubled or in traffic. This board has been harping on Zach for being unable to make these reads 6 years into his NBA career. This kid has already shown much of the above as a teen.

Having a big secondary ball-handler who has that much dog in him will probably be a huge blessing for this team.

[TheSuzerain]

I understand the desire to go for wings, and that's usually the right impulse.

But the wing prospects just aren't impressive this year. Deni is a mid-1st round caliber prospect. Vassell has seemingly messed up his shot which was pretty much his only strength offensively.

If there was an actual good wing prospect this year, they'd be going in the top 3.

[gobullschi]

I’m still waiting on the draft measurements. I’m hoping Edwards measures out at 6’5 w/o shoes. He’s my #1 choice right now.