Around The NBA

[TheStig]

It wouldn't matter. Players would just add more opt out years so once traded they could opt out early and recoup the money.
Most don't even give a **** about losing the SuperMax.

You can only have one player option year in the current CBA if I'm not mistaken.

I agree in general though, if you are a superstar player, we have seen the supermax isn't really meaningful. The NBA would be better without it. We've seen that it doesn't entice legit super duper stars to stay and only causes small market teams to overpay even more for non super duper stars.

The good news for everyone is the NBA is making serious bank. That means the players are paid a ton more, but the owners are also making a ton more too. You no longer need to be a superstar or even a star to be generationally wealthy. A 10 year MLE guy is making 100M dollars now.

The supermax wasn't really that much more money anyway. They get the 5/225. But the 8 year FA who takes a 2+1 and then hits FA at year 10, isn't really losing money when he signs another max at year 10. They go up to to that 35% at 10 years. They're just losing that 5% on 2 years. Look at Kawhi. He didn't take the supermax in SA. He signed a 2+1 for 30% of the cap with the Clips and will be a 10 year FA when he has an opt out next year. He's not losing a ton of money when he signs another max. He'll just be losing about 5 mill per year on the 2 years till he hits 10 years.

If they wanted to fix the supermax. They'd make it more impactful like 40% of the cap (having only 30% count toward the cap same as a max) and having it include a no trade clause for the team. IE it's 10 mill a year more for the 2 years and 5 mill a year for the next 2-3 but they have to commit to the team.

[TheStig]

Does the Heat even have big enough contracts to do a Harden trade? Harden under Riley would be interesting but I'm not sure he's the type of player Riley wants. The Bucks could do Middleton + filler, don't think that's enough for HOU and the Bucks can't trade anymore picks.

Absolutely, Dragic, Iggy, Leonard works to match salaries. Just got to add Herro, Nunn, precious and every 1st and swap they'll ever have. Then you got Harden, Butler, Bradley and Bam.

Didn't they just resign Dragic? Do we know when he can be traded?

Typically signed players can be traded by Dec 15 in normal years. I think it's still around there or a little later this year.

[dougthonus]

Don't you only get a couple of tags though? And they can still hold out like they do in the NFL.

You could make the rule franchise tag only in two consecutive years, and it gives a team 2 years to deal with a problem.

The reverse trade kicker will not eliminate a trade request. But it will eliminate the drama and foolishness and public spectacle of it. Removing the drama and aggressive nature will make it that the franchise doesn't have it's hand forced well in advance and held hostage. The players will have to remain professional and honor their deal or it will cost them 15%. It will give the franchise some time to see if things can be fixed during the year or do a deal like the PG13 deal.

My theory, and who knows what would happen in reality, is that it would basically work the same, just not be official. However, the team would know, the fans would know, like if you look at Harden's situation, he can just show up late to training camp, be caught partying in Brooklyn with photos of KD, and say no comment, and does the situation really change materially?

[TheStig]

Don't you only get a couple of tags though? And they can still hold out like they do in the NFL.

You could make the rule franchise tag only in two consecutive years, and it gives a team 2 years to deal with a problem.

The reverse trade kicker will not eliminate a trade request. But it will eliminate the drama and foolishness and public spectacle of it. Removing the drama and aggressive nature will make it that the franchise doesn't have it's hand forced well in advance and held hostage. The players will have to remain professional and honor their deal or it will cost them 15%. It will give the franchise some time to see if things can be fixed during the year or do a deal like the PG13 deal.

My theory, and who knows what would happen in reality, is that it would basically work the same, just not be official. However, the team would know, the fans would know, like if you look at Harden's situation, he can just show up late to training camp, be caught partying in Brooklyn with photos of KD, and say no comment, and does the situation really change materially?

How would they know if they weren't allowed to leak it and the player still had to come. You know this trade demand, list of teams and such isn't coming from the rockets. We didn't know about the PG13 trade request. He just got traded one day.

And the team could choose to keep him and try to convince him or they could go out and get the best deal. They don't need to deal with a distressed asset.

[dougthonus]

How would they know if they weren't allowed to leak it and the player still had to come. You know this trade demand, list of teams and such isn't coming from the rockets. We didn't know about the PG13 trade request. He just got traded one day.

I just think it becomes trivial for Harden to send a message where the Rockets read between the lines and then are forced to ask him where he would accept a trade to, and then he gives a list, but the trade was the Rockets idea.

Not sure what relevance George is exactly, he was traded literally 3 days after making his demand, the Harden situation has probably been brewing for 3+ months now.

And the team could choose to keep him and try to convince him or they could go out and get the best deal. They don't need to deal with a distressed asset.

They still have these same choices now more or less.

The George situation was different, not because George was quiet about his trade demand, but because the Clippers needed to pay up to get Kawhi and were thus doubly desperate in an all or nothing situation.

If the Rockets were smart, they would have started investigating trade talk months ago, and could have dumped him to Milwaukee and taken back the package the Bucks gave out for Holiday and would have been way better off than anything else they will do, but they played their cards wrong.

Harden being a brat hurts their leverage, but he could make the situation untenable without officially demanding a trade and thus still reducing the Rockets leverage.

[MrFortune3]

PG13 signing that extension makes the FA market look worse and worse. Granted it was always about Giannis but the amount of players not taking the money and signing the extension seems to be less and less.

[MrFortune3]

It wouldn't matter. Players would just add more opt out years so once traded they could opt out early and recoup the money.
Most don't even give a **** about losing the SuperMax.

You can only have one player option year in the current CBA if I'm not mistaken.

I agree in general though, if you are a superstar player, we have seen the supermax isn't really meaningful. The NBA would be better without it. We've seen that it doesn't entice legit super duper stars to stay and only causes small market teams to overpay even more for non super duper stars.

The good news for everyone is the NBA is making serious bank. That means the players are paid a ton more, but the owners are also making a ton more too. You no longer need to be a superstar or even a star to be generationally wealthy. A 10 year MLE guy is making 100M dollars now.

I worded that improperly. I didn't mean more actual option years but that superstars would just have as earlier a PTO to force the team to trade them.

I feel that a lot of the player movement is driven by the fans themselves criticizing players for their perceived failures.
"You're not a real superstar if you don't win a championship" "Your team should have won X amount of titles by now"
Can't complain about superstars demanding trades when teams won't build around them properly.

[dougthonus]

I worded that improperly. I didn't mean more actual option years but that superstars would just have as earlier a PTO to force the team to trade them.

Gotcha, yeah, we've seen that trend already.

I feel that a lot of the player movement is driven by the fans themselves criticizing players for their perceived failures.
"You're not a real superstar if you don't win a championship" "Your team should have won X amount of titles by now"
Can't complain about superstars demanding trades when teams won't build around them properly.

More often than not being absurdly lucky is the way to build around superstars. You typically need two, and even getting 1 takes a ton of luck, getting 2 takes absurd luck. You can do things to put yourself in position to be absurdly lucky, but even if you do, you're more likely than not to fail. 97% of teams don't have what it takes every year.

[MrFortune3]

I worded that improperly. I didn't mean more actual option years but that superstars would just have as earlier a PTO to force the team to trade them.

Gotcha, yeah, we've seen that trend already.

I feel that a lot of the player movement is driven by the fans themselves criticizing players for their perceived failures.
"You're not a real superstar if you don't win a championship" "Your team should have won X amount of titles by now"
Can't complain about superstars demanding trades when teams won't build around them properly.

More often than not being absurdly lucky is the way to build around superstars. You typically need two, and even getting 1 takes a ton of luck, getting 2 takes absurd luck. You can do things to put yourself in position to be absurdly lucky, but even if you do, you're more likely than not to fail. 97% of teams don't have what it takes every year.

I agree, but in the social media era, fans are savage with critiques of superstars.
It's takes a **** ton of luck to win championships, talent is key but luck is crucial because you have to be healthy, you need camaraderie and etc to win it all.

It is hard to build championship teams and even harder to keep them together.

[dougthonus]

I agree, but in the social media era, fans are savage with critiques of superstars.
It's takes a **** ton of luck to win championships, talent is key but luck is crucial because you have to be healthy, you need camaraderie and etc to win it all.

It is hard to build championship teams and even harder to keep them together.

Agreed. I also agree with your point that it has to be wearing on players too. I can see why someone whom is say the 5th best player in the league feels worn out by people saying he's not good enough to win a title.

[TheStig]

How would they know if they weren't allowed to leak it and the player still had to come. You know this trade demand, list of teams and such isn't coming from the rockets. We didn't know about the PG13 trade request. He just got traded one day.

I just think it becomes trivial for Harden to send a message where the Rockets read between the lines and then are forced to ask him where he would accept a trade to, and then he gives a list, but the trade was the Rockets idea.

Not sure what relevance George is exactly, he was traded literally 3 days after making his demand, the Harden situation has probably been brewing for 3+ months now.

And the team could choose to keep him and try to convince him or they could go out and get the best deal. They don't need to deal with a distressed asset.

They still have these same choices now more or less.

The George situation was different, not because George was quiet about his trade demand, but because the Clippers needed to pay up to get Kawhi and were thus doubly desperate in an all or nothing situation.

If the Rockets were smart, they would have started investigating trade talk months ago, and could have dumped him to Milwaukee and taken back the package the Bucks gave out for Holiday and would have been way better off than anything else they will do, but they played their cards wrong.

Harden being a brat hurts their leverage, but he could make the situation untenable without officially demanding a trade and thus still reducing the Rockets leverage.

A reverse trader kicker puts consequences on the player. It makes them give something up if they're going to blow up the team on the fly.

The point was that no one really knew he was on the market. It wasn't weeks before the season.

And the Holiday return would be horrible for Harden. It's a ton of picks that would be garbage with two MVP's and Middleton as the core. Harden is an elite player. You can't trade him for Bledsoe, Hill and a bunch of late 1sts. It's different with Holiday because that wasn't enough to get a Giannis extenstion.

[dougthonus]

A reverse trader kicker puts consequences on the player. It makes them give something up if they're going to blow up the team on the fly.

Do you think the reverse trade kicker goes in no matter what or only if you demand a trade? Because again, you seem to be missing the point, you just never demand a trade. You just act like a brat until the team gets the idea and offers to trade you and the kicker is gone. It would become impossible to enforce from a practical standpoint.

As an example, there are exceptions that allow you to void NBA contracts that exist now for bad behavior, but they are also unenforceable. The Wizards couldn't void Arenas contract when he brought guns into the locker room and threatened someone. That's all I mean. Like theoretically, yeah, you'd like to be able to put something in there that says you really have to do your best, or you forfeit money and not only that, no one else is allowed to pay you either to make up for it, you just lose it, but I don't think there is any practical way to make that a reality.

The point was that no one really knew he was on the market. It wasn't weeks before the season.

Not sure if you are referring to George or Harden? George asked the Thunder to move him to where Kawhi was going to go and then it happened 3 days later. He wasn't ever really on the market and wasn't demanding a trade universally the way Harden is to my knowledge. Not that it really matters, because I think your point is simply to illustrate that if the player can't publicly pressure the organization that the return is better and George did this by choice not force.

And the Holiday return would be horrible for Harden. It's a ton of picks that would be garbage with two MVP's and Middleton as the core. Harden is an elite player. You can't trade him for Bledsoe, Hill and a bunch of late 1sts. It's different with Holiday because that wasn't enough to get a Giannis extenstion.

The picks come due so far into the future that team would be broken up even with Harden IMO. Not to mention, I'd wager that Milwaukee couldn't afford to keep it together anyway.

[HomoSapien]

Mavs waived Barea. I'm sure he'll end up on a contender, but I wouldn't mind having him on the bench.

[TheStig]

A reverse trader kicker puts consequences on the player. It makes them give something up if they're going to blow up the team on the fly.

Do you think the reverse trade kicker goes in no matter what or only if you demand a trade? Because again, you seem to be missing the point, you just never demand a trade. You just act like a brat until the team gets the idea and offers to trade you and the kicker is gone. It would become impossible to enforce from a practical standpoint.

As an example, there are exceptions that allow you to void NBA contracts that exist now for bad behavior, but they are also unenforceable. The Wizards couldn't void Arenas contract when he brought guns into the locker room and threatened someone. That's all I mean. Like theoretically, yeah, you'd like to be able to put something in there that says you really have to do your best, or you forfeit money and not only that, no one else is allowed to pay you either to make up for it, you just lose it, but I don't think there is any practical way to make that a reality.

The point was that no one really knew he was on the market. It wasn't weeks before the season.

Not sure if you are referring to George or Harden? George asked the Thunder to move him to where Kawhi was going to go and then it happened 3 days later. He wasn't ever really on the market and wasn't demanding a trade universally the way Harden is to my knowledge. Not that it really matters, because I think your point is simply to illustrate that if the player can't publicly pressure the organization that the return is better and George did this by choice not force.

And the Holiday return would be horrible for Harden. It's a ton of picks that would be garbage with two MVP's and Middleton as the core. Harden is an elite player. You can't trade him for Bledsoe, Hill and a bunch of late 1sts. It's different with Holiday because that wasn't enough to get a Giannis extenstion.

The picks come due so far into the future that team would be broken up even with Harden IMO. Not to mention, I'd wager that Milwaukee couldn't afford to keep it together anyway.

The point would be that there are still trade requests but it would be subtly and not disturb the whole franchise. The current way is just devastating most of the time. This would help tilt the power from entirely with the player to more of something they'd have to work together. And just like the player acts like a brat, the team can simply keep him for years and fine them.

Giannis is 26. He'll still be in his prime in 5 years. Harden is 31. He'll still likely be an all star level player in 5 years. Giannis would take the supermax and James likely takes an extenstion to be there for the next 4-5 years. Middleton is 29. No reason to believe that the bucks wouldn't remain a strong playoff team for the 5 years they own the picks and swaps.

[Ccwatercraft]

PG13 signing that extension makes the FA market look worse and worse. Granted it was always about Giannis but the amount of players not taking the money and signing the extension seems to be less and less.

It's a ridiculous contract IMO, crazy money on players these days.

[MrFortune3]

I agree, but in the social media era, fans are savage with critiques of superstars.
It's takes a **** ton of luck to win championships, talent is key but luck is crucial because you have to be healthy, you need camaraderie and etc to win it all.

It is hard to build championship teams and even harder to keep them together.

Agreed. I also agree with your point that it has to be wearing on players too. I can see why someone whom is say the 5th best player in the league feels worn out by people saying he's not good enough to win a title.

I think that fans tend to look at dynasties and feel it's easy to assemble. Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe, Duncan, Parker and Manu are hard to find and mesh together for titles.

[Ccwatercraft]

I agree, but in the social media era, fans are savage with critiques of superstars.
It's takes a **** ton of luck to win championships, talent is key but luck is crucial because you have to be healthy, you need camaraderie and etc to win it all.

It is hard to build championship teams and even harder to keep them together.

Agreed. I also agree with your point that it has to be wearing on players too. I can see why someone whom is say the 5th best player in the league feels worn out by people saying he's not good enough to win a title.

I think that fans tend to look at dynasties and feel it's easy to assemble. Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe, Duncan, Parker and Manu are hard to find and mesh together for titles.

Hes good enough to win a title, but so was curry, lebron, it's been a hard 10 year run against some goliaths. There's no shame in losing to some fantastic teams.

[MrFortune3]

Agreed. I also agree with your point that it has to be wearing on players too. I can see why someone whom is say the 5th best player in the league feels worn out by people saying he's not good enough to win a title.

I think that fans tend to look at dynasties and feel it's easy to assemble. Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe, Duncan, Parker and Manu are hard to find and mesh together for titles.

Hes good enough to win a title, but so was curry, lebron, it's been a hard 10 year run against some goliaths. There's no shame in losing to some fantastic teams.

In this era, there is a ton of shame. Players cannot live it down, especially not with former players also saying guys need to a win a ring.

[Repeat 3-peat]

So much for the 21' free agent class. The years after 21' also do not look good.

If a team wants to acquire a star, it's through trades.

[StunnerKO]

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