2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[TheSuzerain]

Motivated Whiteside was impactful. Look at his 15-16 or 16-17 season before he got paid to get a sense of what a focused version can do.

You’re ignoring that Whitesides biggest deficiency is the mental side of the game. There aren’t those same issues expected for Wiseman.

They kind of are the same issues? Wiseman has had red flags around motivation/focus for a long time now.

And even early Whiteside never looked impactful in the +/- or on/off sense.

Taken straight from his Ringer profile on Wiseman: "High-character person who works hard on and off the court. He’s intelligent, too; These are positive personality traits that could aid his development."

However, there are some different character concerns. Someone did post a recent note (I don't remember where from) that stated he wanted to be more like AD and Giannis. I agree this is a problem. This kid has been hyped as a top prospect since day 1 and will be selected very high. It's not clear how well he will take to being a rich man's DeAndre Jordan or Hassan Whiteside. That is a real issue to investigate.

As for Whiteside, he was the top Heat player on Simple Rating each of 2015-16 through 2018-19 seasons (PER vs. Opponent PER + plus/minus). And he's always been a positive plus/minus player.

http://www.82games.com/1516/1516MIA.HTM

Probably not the best time to be talking about how impactful Whiteside was for the Heat...

Overall, I do think Whiteside is a pretty good starting center. But his impact has always trailed well behind his box-score numbers.

I also think Whiteside is a pretty reasonable projection for what Wiseman will become.

I think there's a safeness to picking Wiseman. But I am unconvinced of the upside case for a guy who is a non-shooter and non-passer.

[PhilLeotardo]

I feel like everyone who passes up on Markus Howard is going to regret it deeply

His shot isn’t normal. It’s a thing of pristine beauty, and it’ll only get better, which is crazy to ponder

[TheSuzerain]

Yeah I want Markus Howard in Round 2.

He is the best scorer in the draft, and he might not go 1st round. That's very bizarre.

[sco]

They kind of are the same issues? Wiseman has had red flags around motivation/focus for a long time now.

And even early Whiteside never looked impactful in the +/- or on/off sense.

Taken straight from his Ringer profile on Wiseman: "High-character person who works hard on and off the court. He’s intelligent, too; These are positive personality traits that could aid his development."

However, there are some different character concerns. Someone did post a recent note (I don't remember where from) that stated he wanted to be more like AD and Giannis. I agree this is a problem. This kid has been hyped as a top prospect since day 1 and will be selected very high. It's not clear how well he will take to being a rich man's DeAndre Jordan or Hassan Whiteside. That is a real issue to investigate.

As for Whiteside, he was the top Heat player on Simple Rating each of 2015-16 through 2018-19 seasons (PER vs. Opponent PER + plus/minus). And he's always been a positive plus/minus player.

http://www.82games.com/1516/1516MIA.HTM

Probably not the best time to be talking about how impactful Whiteside was for the Heat...

Overall, I do think Whiteside is a pretty good starting center. But his impact has always trailed well behind his box-score numbers.

I also think Whiteside is a pretty reasonable projection for what Wiseman will become.

I think there's a safeness to picking Wiseman. But I am unconvinced of the upside case for a guy who is a non-shooter and non-passer.

Whiteside could be an elite C if he shed is attitude and wasn't such a FT liability.

[PlayerUp]

Yeah I want Markus Howard in Round 2.

He is the best scorer in the draft, and he might not go 1st round. That's very bizarre.

He's 5'9 right?

[PlayerUp]

I'm seeing Knicks' fans proposing #4 for #8 and Knox on youtube. But with Knox numbers being worse than even Hutchinson's, I see no reason to do that trade.

Knox is terrible and he's playing on the Knicks. #27 Pick > Knox.

[PhilLeotardo]

I'm seeing Knicks' fans proposing #4 for #8 and Knox on youtube. But with Knox numbers being worse than even Hutchinson's, I see no reason to do that trade.

Knox is terrible and he's playing on the Knicks. #27 Pick > Knox.

Disagree. Knox still has awesome upside & is a baby. He was forced to play under one of the worst coaching staffs in league history last year. He’s raw but he’s definitely still an intriguing piece

I still probably wouldn’t do the trade, but Knox is certainly worth a lot more than the 27th pick in one of the worst drafts of all time

[PhilLeotardo]

Taken straight from his Ringer profile on Wiseman: "High-character person who works hard on and off the court. He’s intelligent, too; These are positive personality traits that could aid his development."

However, there are some different character concerns. Someone did post a recent note (I don't remember where from) that stated he wanted to be more like AD and Giannis. I agree this is a problem. This kid has been hyped as a top prospect since day 1 and will be selected very high. It's not clear how well he will take to being a rich man's DeAndre Jordan or Hassan Whiteside. That is a real issue to investigate.

As for Whiteside, he was the top Heat player on Simple Rating each of 2015-16 through 2018-19 seasons (PER vs. Opponent PER + plus/minus). And he's always been a positive plus/minus player.

http://www.82games.com/1516/1516MIA.HTM

Probably not the best time to be talking about how impactful Whiteside was for the Heat...

Overall, I do think Whiteside is a pretty good starting center. But his impact has always trailed well behind his box-score numbers.

I also think Whiteside is a pretty reasonable projection for what Wiseman will become.

I think there's a safeness to picking Wiseman. But I am unconvinced of the upside case for a guy who is a non-shooter and non-passer.

Whiteside could be an elite C if he shed is attitude and wasn't such a FT liability.

So, if he became a completely different person/player, he’d be an elite C?

[cjbulls]

Probably not the best time to be talking about how impactful Whiteside was for the Heat...

Overall, I do think Whiteside is a pretty good starting center. But his impact has always trailed well behind his box-score numbers.

I also think Whiteside is a pretty reasonable projection for what Wiseman will become.

I think there's a safeness to picking Wiseman. But I am unconvinced of the upside case for a guy who is a non-shooter and non-passer.

Whiteside could be an elite C if he shed is attitude and wasn't such a FT liability.

So, if he became a completely different person/player, he’d be an elite C?

The point is, Wiseman doesn’t have the weaknesses that were just listed. So yes, thats the player the Bulls should consider drafting at 4

[TheSuzerain]

Yeah I want Markus Howard in Round 2.

He is the best scorer in the draft, and he might not go 1st round. That's very bizarre.

He's 5'9 right?

5'11"

[Leslie Forman]

Whiteside could be an elite C if he shed is attitude and wasn't such a FT liability.

No, he never could be. His basketball IQ is too poor, his feet too slow, his skillset too lacking. His attitude in Portland has been fine.

He's just slow, figuratively and literally.

[MrSparkle]

With the athletic big men, you are looking realistically at 3-5 years of their speed and hops before their weight and injuries slow them down. Gobert is really the only exception I can think of, and he's got a freakish wing-span and hasn't seen a whole lot of playoff mileage. So, I do think it's important that these guys have strong handles, good hands, high IQ and potential to shoot that 3P in order to have good careers beyond their young primes. When you consider it ALSO takes them about 2-3 years to develop, this is why I think big men are generally the worst investment in the NBA.

Even Draymond - someone I consider one of the best all-around players of the decade... the hybrid combo forward/big ... what did he have, a 3-year window of his elite peak? He's got the skills, IQ and experience to still come back and ball for a long time, but he really doesn't have the quick feet anymore, which enabled him to be a super switch defender and a drive-threat with the ball. He was a swiss-army knife from 14-17, but in many ways GSW needed Durant to compensate for Draymond's decline (and the rest of their depth declining).

Bam had a great year and will probably get better. He's got good skills. But realistically, unless he becomes a really good shooter (which I know he's working on), I do think you're looking at a 3-4 year window of him being a high-impact player. I don't know if it was more because of the injury or more because of the Lakers' match-ups, but the finals series was a good example of how limited he was with less pep.

But if the draft is as mediocre as everyone thinks it is, and Wiseman hopes to be somewhere between Whiteside or Bam, I'm not lamenting adding a true 7ft. with athleticism and offensive potential to this team. But I probably acknowledge it's not really putting the Bulls build on any contending trajectory. Also, that college sample size is really brutal when you consider the 3 games and the quality of opponents. Maybe I'm crazy but I see Poku as a more interesting gamble, with lower floor and higher ceiling.

I still don't entirely understand why American trainers haven't adopted European big man development for young prospects. Is it a combination of coordination and height that Spaniards and Eastern Europeans in a higher ratio, or is it in their youth training? I lean towards the latter. Can you imagine if Howard, Ayton and Wiseman modeled Sabonis, Scola and Pau from their youth instead of David Robinson and Bosh?

[MrFortune3]

I think the big questions for Wiseman are:

What will he do significantly better than Hassan Whiteside? How will those things translate to him being more impactful than Whiteside?

Motivated Whiteside was impactful. Look at his 15-16 or 16-17 season before he got paid to get a sense of what a focused version can do.

You’re ignoring that Whitesides biggest deficiency is the mental side of the game. There aren’t those same issues expected for Wiseman.

They kind of are the same issues? Wiseman has had red flags around motivation/focus for a long time now.

And even early Whiteside never looked impactful in the +/- or on/off sense.

Wiseman’s question marks are in game. He sometimes loafs on the court and doesn’t give full effort because he’s been so good for so long.

[PlayerUp]

Wiseman’s question marks are in game. He sometimes loafs on the court and doesn’t give full effort because he’s been so good for so long.

His motor issues go back to high school where he would not even try to push up and down the court. It's not really talked about much but people lacking motivation, work ethics, lack of motor are prospects you should stay away from.

[PlayerUp]

Yeah I want Markus Howard in Round 2.

He is the best scorer in the draft, and he might not go 1st round. That's very bizarre.

He's 5'9 right?

5'11"

I think we can buy a 2nd and get him and AK historically takes gambles so we shall see.

[cjbulls]

He's 5'9 right?

5'11"

I think we can buy a 2nd and get him and AK historically takes gambles so we shall see.

Did I miss where we were short on undersized scoring talent? We used one of these guys in a year for about 5 straight years. It was helpful on a defensive minded team that needed scoring. Don’t see the relevance on this current roster.

[cjbulls]

Wiseman’s question marks are in game. He sometimes loafs on the court and doesn’t give full effort because he’s been so good for so long.

His motor issues go back to high school where he would not even try to push up and down the court. It's not really talked about much but people lacking motivation, work ethics, lack of motor are prospects you should stay away from.

Where are these motor questions? His ringer profile all but says the opposite and I’ve seen nothing questioning his motor. Link?

[chicago paxsons]

I had heard that there were concerns of edwards’ drive as a player, but i don’t have any links to confirm the rumor, and with wiseman’s motor being a possible issue, i am hesitant at the idea of drafting them. I know with edwards, it could be just a rumor not based in any reality, but i can’t disprove it as if i was a part of draft interviews so i feel like the rumors should be taken as a mildly worrying possibility.

I know part of the garpax strategy was to draft based on character which, even though i’m happy they’re gone, i still think character should play a part in who we draft. I would prefer the bulls draft a high character/hard working player who may not be as talented than a more talented player who may have issues in those areas.

That doesn’t mean i’m against drafting for potential or for sticking to a rigid drafting dogma like garpax, but as we get more news on this board about prospects, it makes me more happy about where we are in the draft. We are right inbetween the top picks of the draft which, aside from deni, i’m not a fan of and players who are considered to be worse but i like much more.

[TheSuzerain]

5'11"

I think we can buy a 2nd and get him and AK historically takes gambles so we shall see.

Did I miss where we were short on undersized scoring talent? We used one of these guys in a year for about 5 straight years. It was helpful on a defensive minded team that needed scoring. Don’t see the relevance on this current roster.

We have very little offensive talent on the team. Our defense was actually league-average. It's our horrible offense that made us one of the worst teams in the league.

We need shots to flow to better/more efficient scorers. Howard would probably be the best scorer on the roster aside from Lavine.

[TheSuzerain]

Wiseman’s question marks are in game. He sometimes loafs on the court and doesn’t give full effort because he’s been so good for so long.

His motor issues go back to high school where he would not even try to push up and down the court. It's not really talked about much but people lacking motivation, work ethics, lack of motor are prospects you should stay away from.

Where are these motor questions? His ringer profile all but says the opposite and I’ve seen nothing questioning his motor. Link?

It comes from AAU where he was not nearly as dominant as he should have been.

He has looked more dominant and hard-working in his college games and the hoop summit, but the sample size is obviously crazy small (less than 100 minutes).