Doug on "2014 Plan"

[Concept Coop]

I'm all for future flexibility but keeping Brewer, Korver, and Watson and then using the MMLE on a SG would still give us a ton of options going forward and we would be a much better team this season as well.

Even letting Asik walk if Rose comes back and that team catches a break or two they could possibly win a title. We got clear downgrades across the board when we didn't necessarily have to if the goal was to have capspace for 2014.

This offseason has shown our owners true colors more than any others before it.

Rightly or wrongly (I tend to agree with Transplant, in that its wrongly), the Bulls obviously concluded that this year was a lost year. That is the only definitive takeaway there is, in my opinion.

I don't like it. But given that this is obviously their view, and that I have to accept it, I'm having a hard time being too critical of how they are approaching things going forward (that being staying flexible while preserving the ability to put together a contender in Rose's next full season, rather than deciding, today, to sacrifice that season as well).

Personally, I am fine with the ownership doing what they have promised all along: avoiding the tax for a team that won't contend for a championship.

[BuffaloBull]

That's wrong.

If the Bulls were smart, they would have...

Green font?

I didn't advocate that plan. But to sit here and say they had to make choices on who they got is wrong. They COULD have kept Omer and added the others, they choose not to. I wouldn't have kept Omer either.

I certainly would have traded Brewer, Watson and Korver for TPE and i feel the only reason they did with Korver was the cap hit.

The thing with that though is you're using all your cash at draft time to do these deals, and you're presupposing that FA is going to shake out a certain way. It might have been you wanted that cash to facilitate a deal that came up unexpectedly, or to pursue a trade you didn't think you'd make that suddenly became available. In hindsight, doing what you've proposed makes perfect sense, but it's never that clear as it's unfolding in front of you.

In the new CBA, you can only spend and receive up to 3 mill, total, per season either way, so it makes sense to use that asset prudently.

[babblin-on]

I'm all for future flexibility but keeping Brewer, Korver, and Watson and then using the MMLE on a SG would still give us a ton of options going forward and we would be a much better team this season as well.

Even letting Asik walk if Rose comes back and that team catches a break or two they could possibly win a title. We got clear downgrades across the board when we didn't necessarily have to if the goal was to have capspace for 2014.

This offseason has shown our owners true colors more than any others before it.

Rightly or wrongly (I tend to agree with Transplant, in that its wrongly), the Bulls obviously concluded that this year was a lost year. That is the only definitive takeaway there is, in my opinion.

I don't like it. But given that this is obviously their view, and that I have to accept it, I'm having a hard time being too critical of how they are approaching things going forward (that being staying flexible while preserving the ability to put together a contender in Rose's next full season, rather than deciding, today, to sacrifice that season as well).

I think if they were really interested in the bolded, they'd have gotten Courtney Lee or OJ Mayo.

[Ralphb07]

I don't think the Bulls trended water with the bench players they got. I think the Bulls looked at the new CBA and realized some of their players were overpaid. The Bulls came in to the summer knowing they would spend the MLE and BPE and felt they could get good players with those. Maybe the Bulls didn't go after a long term player via trade with the non guarantees, but none were really available.

I really like the position the Bulls are in. They added some nice players who I feel could serve as good bench guys in our championship run in Kirk, Belinelli and Butler. They received a TPE of 5 mil to use on acquiring someone down the road and have some nice chips coming their way in Nikola and the Cats pick.

That's wrong.

If the Bulls were smart, they would have traded Watson+cash to a cap team for a future 2nd, Brewer+cash to a cap team for a future 2nd and done the Korver deal. Then acquire Marco and Kirk with their TPE, then acquire Mayo via TPE to a long term deal. THEN they could have kept Asik. And STILL have their tax payer MLE.

Rose/Hinrich/Teague
Hamilton/Mayo/Belinelli
Deng/Butler/Radmanovic
Boozer/Gibson
Noah/Asik/Mohammed

All that team took was the financial ability to do it. I can see the argument to letting Omer walk due to the cost. But they could have added every single player they've added just by being creative.

Well since you said it's WRONG, it must be

They traded Korver for a TPE. Both Watson and Brewer got VET MINIMUM deals with new teams. Doesn't that show us maybe just maybe teams DID NOT think either guy was worth their current contracts? So since it's the Bulls, teams should just give us 2nd round picks for nothing? I wish it worked that way but sorry it doesn't

Unless you were paying 8 mil to Mayo (he's not worth that) no team was going to get him on a long term deal. Mayo will opt out next year trying to get another payday.

I really think people need to get away from well we're the Bulls so other teams must help us out. It doesn't work that way.

[Pnjguy]

If the Bulls get Jabari Parker in next year's draft, all of these problems go away.....expect to see guys like Deng, Boozer, and Noah, "nurse" their injuries a little longer this upcoming year.

[BuffaloBull]

Doug I think you are kind of deciding what their plan is and then stating it needed to be done now. That just doesn't seem likely. Instead of assuming they don't know what they are doing, I would assume we don't know exactly what the plan is, but if it's 2014, they are more than fine for now.

I like the discussion of alternate plans, but when we get into the territory of assuming we know better, when we don't, I have to pause.

Pure cap space is one tool, it's not the bullet. Having that leverage and being flexible are the main items, and while remaining really good.

KyRV

I think Buffalo is spot on and I think everyone should really read everything he has written in this thread. As a side note I enjoy Buffalo's post a lot. I actually go looking for stuff he writes. He has a great mind....

Once people get away from who we lost and actually just look at this summer of who we got, they will see that this team with Rose is still very competitive but also has flexibility going forward. Gibson on his new deal will still be an asset. The cats pick, Nikola and even the TPE of 5 mil are all assets.

I'm not sure if people listen to Gar on Bulls.com yesterday but there is a 5 minute interview and it was a good listen.

Wow, thanks for the compliment Ralph. Remind me to send you a copy of my book if/when it ever gets published.

You actually came around on Asik quicker than I did. I thought he could still be an asset on that contract until I realized he would be poison pill second year. It was just tough. And losing Omer stinks. But the Bulls have consistently taken pain today for the promise of better returns tomorrow: it was one of the factors in drafting Asik in the first place. Letting him go is a move in that vein and it stinks, but if the Bulls are able to use their flexibility in the next couple of seasons to add that final core player I'll remember what it took to get there.

[KissedByaRose1]

This offseason has shown our owners true colors more than any others before it.

Jerry said he would pay for a winner. Next year, we won't be a contender. We've learned nothing about the ownership that we didn't already know.

The Celtics were one win away from going to the NBA Finals with a old thing and injured roster of

Rondo/Dooling
Allen/Pietrus
Pierce/Pietrus
Bass/Hollins
Garnett/Stiemsa

(Sorry for spelling errors)

That team is much much worse than

Rose/Watson
Hamilton/Korver/Brewer
Deng/Korver
Boozer/Gibson
Noah/Nazr

Would a lot of things have to go right? Sure but it's not completely improable that team could win a title and still be in great cap situation to improve.

Our owner threw that away because he didn't want to pay the tax after us as fans made the Bulls one of the most profitable teams in the NBA for the past 20 years.

Absolutely unacceptable. PAY THE DAMN TAX.

[Neusch23]

Doug talked about big M coming over from europe, and paying him 3 mill. Couldn't we wait on that until we have signed who ever we want? Since we own his rights can't we wait, and offer him that AFTER we filled in the rest of the players. It isn't like they are ear marking salary for him? That would have us more under the cap to offer a big deal.

[Bruteque]

Those aren't real choices, you are just totally making this up.

In comparison to the average NBA front office, collectively, fans are about 10% as smart as they think they are.

That was obviously a conceptual demonstration, not an exercise in "making up actual numbers."

Dealing in assets with value yet to be firmly established is how you add value (and obviously, it is also how you lose value). When you are comfortable with the firmly established value of your team, you make the moves the Bulls FO has been making this offseason. You take on other firmly established value. If you are not satisfied with that, then you need to take chances, as Riersen (spelling?) has pointed out. Maybe you win, maybe you don't.

Please, sir. Tell me what the front office could have done to improve our championship chances by 1,000%.

You are missing the point. The question is, what is your goal? If your talent level goal is 1.5 rounds of playoffs, then given what we have right now, the best strategy is to sign/trade/deal in firmly established value. That maximizes our chances of staying at that talent level. If you are not satisfied with that and you want to aim higher, then risk is virtually necessarily involved. Maybe you get better, maybe you get worse. Your chances of getting better and getting worse are both increased with higher risk moves dealing with assets which don't yet have firmly established values. It's just that you don't really have much of a choice if you are not satisfied with your current talent level.

[Concept Coop]

This offseason has shown our owners true colors more than any others before it.

Jerry said he would pay for a winner. Next year, we won't be a contender. We've learned nothing about the ownership that we didn't already know.

The Celtics were one win away from going to the NBA Finals with a old thing and injured roster of

Rondo/Dooling
Allen/Pietrus
Pierce/Pietrus
Bass/Hollins
Garnett/Stiemsa

(Sorry for spelling errors)

That team is much much worse than

Rose/Watson
Hamilton/Korver/Brewer
Deng/Korver
Boozer/Gibson
Noah/Nazr

Would a lot of things have to go right? Sure but it's not completely improable that team could win a title and still be in great cap situation to improve.

Our owner threw that away because he didn't want to pay the tax after us as fans made the Bulls one of the most profitable teams in the NBA for the past 20 years.

Absolutely unacceptable. PAY THE DAMN TAX.

If "Rose" is pre-injury - sure; we're the better team. But he won't be.

And Boston was only in it because of freak injuries. They were never a threat to win a championship otherwise.

[Concept Coop]

You are missing the point. The question is, what is your goal? If your talent level goal is 1.5 rounds of playoffs, then given what we have right now, the best strategy is to sign/trade/deal in firmly established value. That maximizes our chances of staying at that talent level. If you are not satisfied with that and you want to aim higher, then risk is virtually necessarily involved. Maybe you get better, maybe you get worse. Your chances of getting better and getting worse are both increased with higher risk moves dealing with assets which don't yet have firmly established values. It's just that you don't really have much of a choice if you are not satisfied with your current talent level.

Your argument is based on a lot of assumptions.

You don't know what deals could have been made. Also - you are putting an imaginarly time table on the process. Why do they need to make these moved yesterday?

[Pnjguy]

If the Teague draft pick didn't signal the stockpile of assets to be traded, i don't know what else could have.

[Ralphb07]

Wow, thanks for the compliment Ralph. Remind me to send you a copy of my book if/when it ever gets published.

You actually came around on Asik quicker than I did. I thought he could still be an asset on that contract until I realized he would be poison pill second year. It was just tough. And losing Omer stinks. But the Bulls have consistently taken pain today for the promise of better returns tomorrow: it was one of the factors in drafting Asik in the first place. Letting him go is a move in that vein and it stinks, but if the Bulls are able to use their flexibility in the next couple of seasons to add that final core player I'll remember what it took to get there

I like Omer a lot, but I think some people play NB2K a little too much. A lot of people thought Omer deal was one that was an asset, which it wouldn't have been. It's also why the big spending Knicks didn't match Lin.

Just like saying the Bulls could of traded Brewer and Watson for picks. Yes that is a great idea and would of been good to do. Heck KC in a article last week said the Bulls in fact tried. But now looking at what Brewer and Watson got, doesn't that show us that their value on old deals weren't worth anything? So why would team X give you a 2nd rd pick for some cash. Isn't that 2nd rd pick worth more for team X to hold on to.

I don't mind people bashing the Bulls but comes with stuff that could actually of happen, not what if's.

[DanTown8587]

The thing with that though is you're using all your cash at draft time to do these deals, and you're presupposing that FA is going to shake out a certain way. It might have been you wanted that cash to facilitate a deal that came up unexpectedly, or to pursue a trade you didn't think you'd make that suddenly became available. In hindsight, doing what you've proposed makes perfect sense, but it's never that clear as it's unfolding in front of you.

In the new CBA, you can only spend and receive up to 3 mill, total, per season either way, so it makes sense to use that asset prudently.

Yeah, you only get money to spend at the draft and the Bulls hadn't spent any so giving it away at the draft is the right thing to do. The Bulls could have done those deals and would have the exact same amount of cash they do now.

The only argument would be to keep the deals to package them. I would rather take a bird in the hand (and get the TPE) than two in the bush (hope that some massive contract becomes available between the draft and July 10th)

[DanTown8587]

I don't think the Bulls trended water with the bench players they got. I think the Bulls looked at the new CBA and realized some of their players were overpaid. The Bulls came in to the summer knowing they would spend the MLE and BPE and felt they could get good players with those. Maybe the Bulls didn't go after a long term player via trade with the non guarantees, but none were really available.

I really like the position the Bulls are in. They added some nice players who I feel could serve as good bench guys in our championship run in Kirk, Belinelli and Butler. They received a TPE of 5 mil to use on acquiring someone down the road and have some nice chips coming their way in Nikola and the Cats pick.

That's wrong.

If the Bulls were smart, they would have traded Watson+cash to a cap team for a future 2nd, Brewer+cash to a cap team for a future 2nd and done the Korver deal. Then acquire Marco and Kirk with their TPE, then acquire Mayo via TPE to a long term deal. THEN they could have kept Asik. And STILL have their tax payer MLE.

Rose/Hinrich/Teague
Hamilton/Mayo/Belinelli
Deng/Butler/Radmanovic
Boozer/Gibson
Noah/Asik/Mohammed

All that team took was the financial ability to do it. I can see the argument to letting Omer walk due to the cost. But they could have added every single player they've added just by being creative.

Well since you said it's WRONG, it must be

They traded Korver for a TPE. Both Watson and Brewer got VET MINIMUM deals with new teams. Doesn't that show us maybe just maybe teams DID NOT think either guy was worth their current contracts? So since it's the Bulls, teams should just give us 2nd round picks for nothing? I wish it worked that way but sorry it doesn't

Unless you were paying 8 mil to Mayo (he's not worth that) no team was going to get him on a long term deal. Mayo will opt out next year trying to get another payday.

I really think people need to get away from well we're the Bulls so other teams must help us out. It doesn't work that way.

Bulls trade CJ Watson and cash to Sacramento for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick
Bulls trade Ronnie Brewer and cash to Charlotte for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick

Not saying giving up anything at all for these other teams. All they have to do is some paperwork.

[Ralphb07]

Bulls trade CJ Watson and cash to Sacramento for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick
Bulls trade Ronnie Brewer and cash to Charlotte for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick

Not saying giving up anything at all for these other teams. All they have to do is some paperwork.

Maybe those teams weren't interested in the little cash helping the Bulls land TPE. Every team is looking to improve their team. You have to keep in mind teams will also go head to head for players and just giving the Bulls all those assets for little cash may not be worth it in the long run.

Also only being able to spend 3 mil a year, the Bulls may be using that to get Hamilton's deal off the books during this season.

[DuckIII]

If the Bulls get Jabari Parker in next year's draft, all of these problems go away.....expect to see guys like Deng, Boozer, and Noah, "nurse" their injuries a little longer this upcoming year.

Jabari Parker can't qualify for next year's draft.

[DuckIII]

But given that this is obviously their view, and that I have to accept it, I'm having a hard time being too critical of how they are approaching things going forward (that being staying flexible while preserving the ability to put together a contender in Rose's next full season, rather than deciding, today, to sacrifice that season as well).

I think if they were really interested in the bolded, they'd have gotten Courtney Lee or OJ Mayo.

Both are available next summer.

[Bruteque]

You are missing the point. The question is, what is your goal? If your talent level goal is 1.5 rounds of playoffs, then given what we have right now, the best strategy is to sign/trade/deal in firmly established value. That maximizes our chances of staying at that talent level. If you are not satisfied with that and you want to aim higher, then risk is virtually necessarily involved. Maybe you get better, maybe you get worse. Your chances of getting better and getting worse are both increased with higher risk moves dealing with assets which don't yet have firmly established values. It's just that you don't really have much of a choice if you are not satisfied with your current talent level.

Your argument is based on a lot of assumptions.

You don't know what deals could have been made. Also - you are putting an imaginarly time table on the process. Why do they need to make these moved yesterday?

The conclusion is indeed based on a few reasonable assumptions, like Noah is tradeable for his fair value in another position. It is entirely possible that those reasonable assumptions turn out to be false, but I am not going to dwell on those improbabilities too much.

I never asserted that they need to make those kind of moves yesterday. Need is a function of aim. I only said that they didn't and the fact that they didn't suggests a particular aim.

[Rerisen]

The only reason the Bulls are a contending team right now is lucking into draft picks - lucking into the #1 pick with Rose, having Noah fall to them.

Interesting reminder.

The pick that became Rose came out of a 2008 Bulls team that, much like this one, was expected to be very good, but probably had little shot at a title. But instead of being very good, they ended up falling on their face that season - which we could do this year.

And when we added a talent like Rose to a team that had just underachieved, or fell back one season due to various things, but still had talent, we instantly became respectable the next two years, even with a bad coach.

Our team now has more inherent talent than that 2008 team did, just Derrick being out half the year is really going to set us back this seaosn. But if you were to add some lottery talent to such a cast, we could rise up real fast. Much faster and farther than we did in 09.

People like to bash the draft, and how many busts come out of it. But every good player comes out of it too. That's how 99% of the players get into the league.