The Zach Lavine Problem

[Just_Bullz]

I agree the Bulls are in an interesting position now, just as the Timberwolves would've been with him.

He's not a No. 1 guy on a championship team.....he's probably not a No. 2 guy either, though that could be a possibility depending on the rest of the team. But at the same time, you'll probably have to pay him as a top-two guy on your team (though the injury may help that).

But that doesn't mean he's a bad player, or one that you shouldn't keep as part of your core. I see the Jamal Crawford comp thrown a lot, but I actually think he can be more Ray Allen. Now, when you hear the name Ray Allen you think HOF and winning titles and such, but he was only to the playoffs four times in his 11-year career before he was traded to Boston. Does that mean he was a bad player or that those teams shouldn't have built around him? Not really. Sometimes, you just need more talent around you in order to be successful.

I really appreciate wolves fans coming over to the bulls forum to offer their 2 cents on zach and dunn. Really soften the blow of us giving up the #16 and selling the #38.

Seems like zach's work ethic is admirable and what i really like is he improves every year. He may not be the focal point on a team as of now but who knows, his work ethics may make him become another butler in a few years.

[HomoSapien]

I agree the Bulls are in an interesting position now, just as the Timberwolves would've been with him.

He's not a No. 1 guy on a championship team.....he's probably not a No. 2 guy either, though that could be a possibility depending on the rest of the team. But at the same time, you'll probably have to pay him as a top-two guy on your team (though the injury may help that).

But that doesn't mean he's a bad player, or one that you shouldn't keep as part of your core. I see the Jamal Crawford comp thrown a lot, but I actually think he can be more Ray Allen. Now, when you hear the name Ray Allen you think HOF and winning titles and such, but he was only to the playoffs four times in his 11-year career before he was traded to Boston. Does that mean he was a bad player or that those teams shouldn't have built around him? Not really. Sometimes, you just need more talent around you in order to be successful.

I really appreciate wolves fans coming over to the bulls forum to offer their 2 cents on zach and dunn. Really soften the blow of us giving up the #16 and selling the #38.

Seems like zach's work ethic is admirable and what i really like is he improves every year. He may not be the focal point on a team as of now but who knows, his work ethics may make him become another butler in a few years.

I second this.

I'd feel a lot better about the trade if LaVine were healthy and the 16th pick wasn't included.

[WindyCityBorn]

I think Lavine is going to be a great asset. He will get paid much less due to his recovery. He will be an uber efficient 22ppg shooter for us.

Lavine is baller and only 22. I really believe we have our backcourt for the next 10 years. Dunn and Levine are both all-star talents. I don't think Minnesota does that deal if Lavine wasn't injured.

[WindyCityBorn]

A sampling of ACL tears and returns:

Al Harrington - Jan 25th - Oct 31 2002 9 months
Al Jefferson - Feb 10th - Oct 28th 2009 8.5 months
Corey Brewer - Dec 3rd - Oct 28th 2009 11 months
Jamal Crawford - July 17 2001 - Mar 3 2002 7.5 months
Iman Shumpert - Apr 27 2012 - Jan 17 2013 9 months
Derrick Rose - Apr 28 2012 - Oct 29 2013 18 months

I'm thinking a full 12 months he'll be out. We probably not gonna get Lavine on a decent deal and just trade him.

Why would we trade a young athletic SG with ridiculous shooting ability? At 21 years old he could be our SG for the next 10 years or more. I see no need to trade him. Dunn and Lavine is our backcourt for the long haul and most on here will agree by the end of season.

[VooDoo7]

I'm just baffled by this. To the max.

I mean, we've seen countless examples of ACL-injured players becoming shadows of themselves (or just never reaching their potential):

Rose
Rondo
Nate Robinson
Rubio
J. Parker
Gallinari
Shaun Livingston

The list goes on.

Hilarious that Pax said we got a "fantastic young lotto player." Give me a break. It's basically gonna be a countdown to the next time, unless he seriously adjusts and reduces his athletic game, and hopefully it's not after the contract extension.

I'm sure it's already been said, but Jabari was actually MUCH more explosive after coming off his first torn ACL. A lot had to do with him strengthening his core and getting his body in better shape. Sadly, he tore his other ACL last season.

Torn ACL isn't the death sentence it was years ago. But I understand your concern. Trust me.

[step]

He also has a lighter bone and muscle structure.

Have I missed the part where players undergo body composition scans nowadays as common practice & this data is publicly released for all to see?

Yeah. That's what you missed.

Oh please do tell what evidence you have to support such a claim.

[Murphs56]

I second Wolves fans that have come over here to give props to Zach. The guy is a relentless worker and always looking to improve. He gets a reputation as only a high flyer but he's a lot more than that - Quite frankly, there have been debates on the Wolves forum and Twitter about who is ultimately going to be the better player between LaVine and Wiggins. Zach played that well last year up until his injury. Honestly, he was the Wolves must reliable shooter and doesn't shy away from crunch time situations.

The Wolves mishandled him his first 2 years as well. Under Flip & Mitchell he was playing way too many minutes at backup PG and he clearly was uncomfortable doing so. Once he made the full time switch to the 2, his improvement was off the charts. He'll never be a great defender, but he'll certainly improve as time goes on. As long as he comes back from his injury 100% (Which he will because he works so damn hard) you guys are getting an excellent player and person.

The mainstream is so quick to judge this trade the day of and say you got fleeced but that bothers the heck out of me because it makes it look like LaVine is a bum. Which is 100% false.

[patryk7754]

Lavine is the most bona fide talent we got in return for Jimmy (health willing), however I would argue that he is not the type of guy you want to jump start a multi-year rebuild.

This is because he only has 1 year left on his contract. If he's going to be a part of this rebuild, we are going to have to pay him A LOT of money which greatly diminishes his value. When building a new core, the last thing you want to be doing is handing out expensive deals to non-max players. Those are almost always the worst value contracts in the NBA. Very rarely do the contributions of such players exceed their cost.

Will Lavine blossom into a max player?

Even if not, will he receive a max contract anyway a la Harrison Barnes?

Would we have been better off getting future draft picks that would line up better with our lotto picks to come?

Players like Barnes got the max because GMs understood that once the cap increased, their contracts would be friendly. Barnes average 20+ points and plays lock down defense. That's pretty good for 20mil.

I believe the max for Lavine would be 20mil in the first year. He has increased his scoring average by 4 points every season of his career, along with his shooting percentages. If that trend continues, he'll be average 26.9 ppg by the time his contract is up. It would be naive not to take his knee injury into consideration when projecting his career. Say because of his knee injury he averages 23/24 ppg when his contract is done, that will probably be worth the max.

[bennjuiced34]

I believe LaVine could become a perfect 6th man. Maybe carve out a role like Jamal Crawford did?

I question LaVine's upside as a 2-way player. But off the bench? Dude could be lethal as a scorer. Less pressure to have to defend too.

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[WindyCityBorn]

I believe LaVine could become a perfect 6th man. Maybe carve out a role like Jamal Crawford did?

I question LaVine's upside as a 2-way player. But off the bench? Dude could be lethal as a scorer. Less pressure to have to defend too.

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Sixth man? More like all-star and 24ppg scorer. Some of you are seriously underrating this guy. His production was damn good for the 3rd option on a team two guys scoring in the mid-twenties. And he is only 21. His defense needs to get better, but when has that ever relegated a guy with his kind of talent to the bench? Never...

[atticus14]

Torn ACL isn't the death sentence it was years ago. But I understand your concern. Trust me.

This is the same hope we held onto with Rose.

We already listened to things like " It's not like it used to be, there's been all kinds of medical advances that should help!"

[WindyCityBorn]

Torn ACL isn't the death sentence it was years ago. But I understand your concern. Trust me.

This is the same hope we held onto with Rose.

We already listened to things like " It's not like it used to be, there's been all kinds of medical advances that should help!"

Who cares about Rose? He was obviously a head case. There is concrete evidence that an ACL is no longer a career killer for athletes. Rose was also hurt by the fact that his jump shot is trash. Lavine's game is way more diverse.

[tedwilliams1999]

Torn ACL isn't the death sentence it was years ago. But I understand your concern. Trust me.

This is the same hope we held onto with Rose.

We already listened to things like " It's not like it used to be, there's been all kinds of medical advances that should help!"

Who cares about Rose? He was obviously a head case. There is concrete evidence that an ACL is no longer a career killer for athletes. Rose was also hurt by the fact that his jump shot is trash. Lavine's game is way more diverse.

My field isn't going to be Orthopedics, but I do have a good amount of experience in sports medicine: I understand why everyone is apprehensive about LaVine's ACL injury, especially given what we went through with Rose. But ACL reconstructions now use grafts from tendons that are thicker than our native knee ligaments. In all likelihood, LaVine's repaired knee is going to become stronger than it ever was before, as he hones in on quads/hamstring strengthening, along with neuromuscular training. He's going to regain essentially 100% of his athletic ability and develop as he normally would.

Most studies also show that re-injury rates are no higher than they are in a healthy knee. In fact, athletes are just as likely to injury the opposite knee, than they are to re-injure the reconstructed knee. I honestly would have no qualms about giving LaVine a strong contract extension right now, especially after hearing about his work ethic. His injury was a contact one, and he normally has excellent landing mechanics.

[Wingy]

Bulls purgatory sentence will be if this kid resigns on a big deal and then blows out a knee again. Obviously I hope not, and mostly for Zach's sake...screw the Bulls.

Chances are higher. It is known. Can't believe we're flirting with this again so soon.

[sco]

I think I'm going to be saying this for a long time:

The Bulls will not be a contender for 5 years. We need to find 3 guys as good as Butler before we're there - and even then, they need to be developed. It is within the realm of possibilities that Zach could be one of them - so we see what we have there. Generally, though, the strategy should be to have a good environment to get, develop, assess young talent as quickly as possible and then jettison anyone who isn't great.

That said, if we make a "huge mistake" and sign Zack to a max deal, it will be coming off the books when we're ready and he may still have value as a trade asset.

If our windows was 2 years, I'd worry; it's not - so the risk is Zack being an impediment to a Bulls championship is low.

[MC3]

Bulls purgatory sentence will be if this kid resigns on a big deal and then blows out a knee again. Obviously I hope not, and mostly for Zach's sake...screw the Bulls.

Chances are higher. It is known. Can't believe we're flirting with this again so soon.

I hope Bulls and Zach can deal some unique extension. It's less than full max, but it's more years. Maybe even make it front-load max-contract if that's possible with CBA. As Bulls during early rebuild can pay Lavine full max money, but as years go salary decreases so it gives us eventual "flexiblity" to put a team around him.

[Dominator83]

Torn ACL isn't the death sentence it was years ago. But I understand your concern. Trust me.

This is the same hope we held onto with Rose.

We already listened to things like " It's not like it used to be, there's been all kinds of medical advances that should help!"

Who cares about Rose? He was obviously a head case. There is concrete evidence that an ACL is no longer a career killer for athletes. Rose was also hurt by the fact that his jump shot is trash. Lavine's game is way more diverse.

Yea I'm not going to proclaim if he'll be better or worse athletically, but it is a huge difference being that Zach can shoot and Rose couldn't. That's a big difference.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

We're not trading him. The Bulls traded for him, and included the #16 to get it done, because they think he is a key piece in the rebuild.

Jerry doesn't have the stomach for a 5 year tear-down/rebuild. I'm guessing Gar/Pax sold him on a quick turn-around. Suck for a year or two and then combine those lotto picks with LaVine/Lauri/Dunn and a key FA signing or two. I won't speak to the reality of that plan - but I do think locking the 22yr old LaVine in to a long-term deal is part of it.



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[Magilla_Gorilla]

And FWIW - Phillys first move in their 'process' was to trade Jrue Holiday for a kid who had just torn his ACL and a future first.


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[TheSuzerain]

We're not trading him. The Bulls traded for him, and included the #16 to get it done, because they think he is a key piece in the rebuild.

Jerry doesn't have the stomach for a 5 year tear-down/rebuild. I'm guessing Gar/Pax sold him on a quick turn-around. Suck for a year or two and then combine those lotto picks with LaVine/Lauri/Dunn and a key FA signing or two. I won't speak to the reality of that plan - but I do think locking the 22yr old LaVine in to a long-term deal is part of it.



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I'll speak to the reality of that plan: Non-existent