GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

[Lexluthor]

That person must never watch Bulls games.

I have been watching bulls game. You would think by now he would be more aggressive by now.But he hasn't.

Not aggressive enough how exactly? Offensively?

Yes

[kulaz3000]

I have been watching bulls game. You would think by now he would be more aggressive by now.But he hasn't.

Not aggressive enough how exactly? Offensively?

Yes

But he only gets so many touches per game, being that he is down the totem pole as far as offensive touches go. And considering that, and the fact that he isn't a ball stopper, he gets up a decent amount of shots.

[WindyCityBorn]

I have been watching bulls game. You would think by now he would be more aggressive by now.But he hasn't.

Not aggressive enough how exactly? Offensively?

Yes

He is 4th option in the starting lineup. 5th when Carter is healthy. I think you are expecting too much too soon. He looks good with his limited opportunities.

[fleet]

Well Pat has gotten to the point where he is not forcing things almost to a fault. But pretty remarkable discipline that he makes mistakes and then completely stops. How many players make mistakes over and over and never stop. He literally won’t open it up if he can’t do it proficiently without mistakes, even if the team generally encouraged him to push it some more. 11 shots is a good enough amount though (Knicks). Even if he literally doesn’t do anything other than play D, take his own shots, and move the ball.

[RoseTheFuture22]

Pat Williams need to assert himself more on the defensive end in term of rebounds, rebounds, and steals. On offense, he needs to either shoot open treys or roll to the basket to initiate foul contacts. It’s simple basketball.

The rebounding numbers have been the only really concerning thing that stands out for me with him so far. It's not like anyone else on our team is gobbling up rebounds so I am not sure why it is his numbers are so low. He wasn't that great at rebounding in college either and he is going to have to get a lot better if he eventually is going to slide to the 4

[GoBlue72391]

I really question if PWill's development would be better served coming off the bench. He's such low usage as a starter. I feel like he would be higher in the scoring pecking order coming off the bench. How much can he develop as a 5th option barely getting any shots/touches?

While obviously still raw, I definitely feel like his skill set is being under utilized. In past years where we had high picked rookies they were way more involved in the offense than PWill is.

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[kodo]

His offense & aggression I'm not worried about this early at his age, which is young even for a 1 & done. But is he really even an elite defender? I'm not seeing it. He's got good awareness weakside and one of our best weakside spot up defenders, but on ball his lack of lateral movement is normal for a guy his size, which isn't great vs P&R handlers. He's a 15th percentile P&R defender, but 70th percentile spot up defender.

But if someone is picked 4th as a defender, I would think on-ball defense is what you're really paying for. But I have to cut him some slack, a lot of his P&R stats are hurt by being the guy that has to guard Lebron, Kawhi, etc.. and we've decided to throw zero help his way.

[ZOMG]

I really question if PWill's development would be better served coming off the bench. He's such low usage as a starter. I feel like he would be higher in the scoring pecking order coming off the bench. How much can he develop as a 5th option barely getting any shots/touches?

Absolutely agree. The 2nd unit has to be reworked now anyway, as Thad is cementing his place in the starting lineup for the time being and Otto looks like he's 56 years old. IMO Temple is now being wasted, as the Vet Squad framework has disappeared from around him.

I'd move Coby, PWill and Gafford to the bench unit to play with Otto and Sato.

Starters would be Zach, Temple, Thad, Lauri and Hutch (to defend quick wings).

[PaKii94]

I really question if PWill's development would be better served coming off the bench. He's such low usage as a starter. I feel like he would be higher in the scoring pecking order coming off the bench. How much can he develop as a 5th option barely getting any shots/touches?

Absolutely agree. The 2nd unit has to be reworked now anyway, as Thad is cementing his place in the starting lineup for the time being and Otto looks like he's 56 years old. IMO Temple is now being wasted, as the Vet Squad framework has disappeared from around him.

I'd move Coby, PWill and Gafford to the bench unit to play with Otto and Sato.

Starters would be Zach, Temple, Thad, Lauri and Hutch (to defend quick wings).

Then our bench would become weak. I think the tweak should be sato and Thad for coby and gafford.

Sato/Lavine/PWill/Lauri/Thad
Coby/val/temple/opj/gafford

Coby can be the sparkplug for the second unit while having 3 vet stabilizers next to him to take off some of the playmaking pressure

[Indomitable]

I am not impressed with the pick. I wanted the bulls to draft Haliburton . Who cares if he the youngest player in the draft. He is proving me right with the Tyrus Thomas and Michael Kidd-Gilcrist comparisons

These are the two worst comps for Willy that I’ve seen.

This thread has went dòwn the drain. Pat will be fine.

[madvillian]

His offense & aggression I'm not worried about this early at his age, which is young even for a 1 & done. But is he really even an elite defender? I'm not seeing it. He's got good awareness weakside and one of our best weakside spot up defenders, but on ball his lack of lateral movement is normal for a guy his size, which isn't great vs P&R handlers. He's a 15th percentile P&R defender, but 70th percentile spot up defender.

But if someone is picked 4th as a defender, I would think on-ball defense is what you're really paying for. But I have to cut him some slack, a lot of his P&R stats are hurt by being the guy that has to guard Lebron, Kawhi, etc.. and we've decided to throw zero help his way.

There's very few "elite defenders" in the NBA. I'd settle for above average honestly. He's held his own as a rookie, and as you noted he's fighting over screens against superstars many nights chasing Lebron, Leonard, etc.

[chicagoballer]

He has not had enough playing time for me to draw any real conclusions. I think he is smart in not being too aggressive. I expect his aggression to increase in the next couple years. He is observing and learning for now. My primary criticism is his slow release. He is ok off the dribble, but spot-up jump shot is toooooo slow for the NBA. His hesitancy shooting is mainly because the defender closes before he releases, and now its a tough shot.

[PaKii94]

I'm content with PWill but I really wanted his teammate in vassell. Looks like his defense and IQ are already translating. Once his offense catches up he's going to be a stud player:

https://airalamo.com/2021/01/24/san-antonio-spurs-rookie-devin-vassell-own-class/

[Clocian]

Watch on YouTube

[Lunartic]

Two issues with some of criticism

PWill is a larger, stronger defender and those types have issues guarding fast, quick wings. Even Kawhi and Lebron have issues with fast craft guards. Williams has done a good job on defense. Moving him out of the starting lineup to maximize his offense would work but It would leave a gaping hole in the starting five defensively.
The Bulls have a severe need for defensive players, Williams is arguably the best or second best defender on the team.

A bench lineup of

Sato
Valentine
Temple
Williams
Gafford

Would be intriguing, definitely undersized but very mobile, multiple handlers, 4 shooters, good defense and Valentine and Temple look similar enough to confuse defenders

[gardenofsound]

Two issues with some of criticism

PWill is a larger, stronger defender and those types have issues guarding fast, quick wings. Even Kawhi and Lebron have issues with fast craft guards. Williams has done a good job on defense. Moving him out of the starting lineup to maximize his offense would work but It would leave a gaping hole in the starting five defensively.
The Bulls have a severe need for defensive players, Williams is arguably the best or second best defender on the team.

A bench lineup of

Sato
Valentine
Temple
Williams
Gafford

Would be intriguing, definitely undersized but very mobile, multiple handlers, 4 shooters, good defense and Valentine and Temple look similar enough to confuse defenders

Lebron was the Rose Stopper in 2011 when Rose was MVP. And he stopped Rose... certainly disrupted him.

Lebron in 2021 is not the same defensive player as Lebron in 2011, or even 2005.

Pat's physical profile is somewhat similar to Lebron's, so I don't think it's physique per-se.

But of course, Lebron is an insanely high bar of comparison, on both ends of the floor.

[Lunartic]

Two issues with some of criticism

PWill is a larger, stronger defender and those types have issues guarding fast, quick wings. Even Kawhi and Lebron have issues with fast craft guards. Williams has done a good job on defense. Moving him out of the starting lineup to maximize his offense would work but It would leave a gaping hole in the starting five defensively.
The Bulls have a severe need for defensive players, Williams is arguably the best or second best defender on the team.

A bench lineup of

Sato
Valentine
Temple
Williams
Gafford

Would be intriguing, definitely undersized but very mobile, multiple handlers, 4 shooters, good defense and Valentine and Temple look similar enough to confuse defenders

Lebron was the Rose Stopper in 2011 when Rose was MVP. And he stopped Rose... certainly disrupted him.

Lebron in 2021 is not the same defensive player as Lebron in 2011, or even 2005.

Pat's physical profile is somewhat similar to Lebron's, so I don't think it's physique per-se.

But of course, Lebron is an insanely high bar of comparison, on both ends of the floor.

That's an oft repeated myth about Lebron and Rose. Rose was hero balling and Lebron had an elite help defender in Wade constantly backing him up. Rose had no issue blowing by Lebron the majority of the time, it was the help defense that stymied him.
The Heat relied on the fact that the bulls had no scorers otherwise of Rose and they built their defense around doubling him.

I can show you lots of footage of smaller, faster players torching young Lebron. In today's NBA it's almost impossible to 1v1 guard a star player consistently.

[ZOMG]

Two issues with some of criticism

PWill is a larger, stronger defender and those types have issues guarding fast, quick wings. Even Kawhi and Lebron have issues with fast craft guards. Williams has done a good job on defense. Moving him out of the starting lineup to maximize his offense would work but It would leave a gaping hole in the starting five defensively.
The Bulls have a severe need for defensive players, Williams is arguably the best or second best defender on the team.

A bench lineup of

Sato
Valentine
Temple
Williams
Gafford

Would be intriguing, definitely undersized but very mobile, multiple handlers, 4 shooters, good defense and Valentine and Temple look similar enough to confuse defenders

Takes like this make my head spin.

I mean... how can people possibly be saying that Patrick Williams is a top 2 defender on this team? It's absurd. It's surely not based on anything that's actually happening in games. Are people judging his defensive ability from a rose-tinted view of his physical profile or something?

I haven't seen this kind of defensive overrating since people were in awe of Dunn's undisciplined steal-hunting which kept burning his teammates.

[DroseReturnChi]

Two issues with some of criticism

PWill is a larger, stronger defender and those types have issues guarding fast, quick wings. Even Kawhi and Lebron have issues with fast craft guards. Williams has done a good job on defense. Moving him out of the starting lineup to maximize his offense would work but It would leave a gaping hole in the starting five defensively.
The Bulls have a severe need for defensive players, Williams is arguably the best or second best defender on the team.

A bench lineup of

Sato
Valentine
Temple
Williams
Gafford

Would be intriguing, definitely undersized but very mobile, multiple handlers, 4 shooters, good defense and Valentine and Temple look similar enough to confuse defenders

Takes like this make my head spin.

I mean... how can people possibly be saying that Patrick Williams is a top 2 defender on this team? It's absurd. It's surely not based on anything that's actually happening in games. Are people judging his defensive ability from a rose-tinted view of his physical profile or something?

I haven't seen this kind of defensive overrating since people were in awe of Dunn's undisciplined steal-hunting which kept burning his teammates.

Name good defensive players then that could take on the star players. Probably young and thats it.
White is garbage. Lavine is still below avg. Lauri avg or slightly above. Carter overall defense is good but he just offers 0 rim protection which is fail for his position. Being a top defender on a garbage team is nothing to be proud of.

[Lunartic]

Two issues with some of criticism

PWill is a larger, stronger defender and those types have issues guarding fast, quick wings. Even Kawhi and Lebron have issues with fast craft guards. Williams has done a good job on defense. Moving him out of the starting lineup to maximize his offense would work but It would leave a gaping hole in the starting five defensively.
The Bulls have a severe need for defensive players, Williams is arguably the best or second best defender on the team.

A bench lineup of

Sato
Valentine
Temple
Williams
Gafford

Would be intriguing, definitely undersized but very mobile, multiple handlers, 4 shooters, good defense and Valentine and Temple look similar enough to confuse defenders

Takes like this make my head spin.

I mean... how can people possibly be saying that Patrick Williams is a top 2 defender on this team? It's absurd. It's surely not based on anything that's actually happening in games. Are people judging his defensive ability from a rose-tinted view of his physical profile or something?

I haven't seen this kind of defensive overrating since people were in awe of Dunn's undisciplined steal-hunting which kept burning his teammates.

Well we don't want your head to spin, so lets talk it through.

Generally speaking, when we claim that X player isn't the best defender, we provide examples of who actually is.

In the starting lineup, we have
Zach - bad/below average defender, terrible help defender
Coby - possibly the worst defender in the league at his position
Lauri - at best an average man to man defender and terrible on help and rim
WCJ - above average help defender but slow and can't keep up with quicker bigs and has gotten destroyed in his matchups
Thad - Probably the Bulls best defender hence why I called Pat the second best

Gafford - high energy big with average defense
Valentine - can't guard a paperbag
Temple - solid

I'm just curious who you think are the Bulls best defenders that actually get minutes? At worst, Williams is the 3rd best defender on the team and at best he's the best. He's actually forced Lebron James and Kawhi Leonard into misses, taking difficult shots and was even commended by Lebron James on his defense. Thad and Temple are the only defenders you can make an argument for over Pat.