Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks)

[nomorezorro]

i have expressed some interest in trading for ball, but i think everyone needs to make sure they're fully aware of the type of player lonzo ball is.

lonzo is almost certainly never going to be a legitimate starting PG except in very specific situations when the rest of a lineup can cover for his major deficiencies. we shouldn't be trading for him with the assumption he would be a long-term solution at starting PG. he's been trash this season, and there's plenty of reason to believe his solid 3pt shooting last season was an aberration. he can't run a halfcourt offense, can't do anything at the rim, won't attack a defense, is often scared of looking for a shot outside of wide-open catch-and-shoot opportunities.

someone might read that and wonder, "gee, why would you want to trade for ball then?" and the answer to that is: there's a version of lonzo ball that's a useful player, especially if he's actually a solid catch-and-shoot threat. he's a great transition guard and does have good passing skills. he's solid on defense. i can see those skills meshing well with zach's strengths/weaknesses, and i'd be interested in renting lonzo to get a glimpse at how that pairing works out in practice.

you don't trade anything of value for him, though. give em denzel and hutch or something, sure.

[coldfish]

Every few pages I feel the need to pipe in on just how horrible of an idea this is.

I'll focus on just the PG aspect of it. The Bulls don't use a PG dominant offense. Virtually no one does. At most in the NBA, the offense is focused on a superstar like Lebron who can do it all.

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

The idea of a PG focused offense comes from the old NBA defense rules where it was illegal to cheat off players. A non shooter (Greg Ostertag) could just stand above the top of the arc and force his defender to be out of the play. Those rules let a PG come down and pick which guy he wanted to feed or run PnR with. In the old days, the PG was like a QB. Those days are gone.

[drosestruts]

Every few pages I feel the need to pipe in on just how horrible of an idea this is.

I'll focus on just the PG aspect of it. The Bulls don't use a PG dominant offense. Virtually no one does. At most in the NBA, the offense is focused on a superstar like Lebron who can do it all.

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

The idea of a PG focused offense comes from the old NBA defense rules where it was illegal to cheat off players. A non shooter (Greg Ostertag) could just stand above the top of the arc and force his defender to be out of the play. Those rules let a PG come down and pick which guy he wanted to feed or run PnR with. In the old days, the PG was like a QB. Those days are gone.

Very much agree that we'd want a capable 3-point shooter here.

Speaking of which..... New Orleans is shopping a veteran point guard who's shooting a career best 41% on a career high 5.4 3PA per game.

Yes, I'm once again advocating we trade for Eric Bledsoe. I honestly feel like the Pelicans would accept a Satoransky and Felicio package for Bledsoe.

We upgrade without having to deal any young pieces or future assets.

[MrSparkle]

Every few pages I feel the need to pipe in on just how horrible of an idea this is.

I'll focus on just the PG aspect of it. The Bulls don't use a PG dominant offense. Virtually no one does. At most in the NBA, the offense is focused on a superstar like Lebron who can do it all.

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

The idea of a PG focused offense comes from the old NBA defense rules where it was illegal to cheat off players. A non shooter (Greg Ostertag) could just stand above the top of the arc and force his defender to be out of the play. Those rules let a PG come down and pick which guy he wanted to feed or run PnR with. In the old days, the PG was like a QB. Those days are gone.

Very much agree that we'd want a capable 3-point shooter here.

Speaking of which..... New Orleans is shopping a veteran point guard who's shooting a career best 41% on a career high 5.4 3PA per game.

Yes, I'm once again advocating we trade for Eric Bledsoe. I honestly feel like the Pelicans would accept a Satoransky and Felicio package for Bledsoe.

We upgrade without having to deal any young pieces or future assets.

I only take Bledsoe with a (reasonable) pick coming back (obviously wouldn’t be their lotto FRP).

[sco]

Every few pages I feel the need to pipe in on just how horrible of an idea this is.

I'll focus on just the PG aspect of it. The Bulls don't use a PG dominant offense. Virtually no one does. At most in the NBA, the offense is focused on a superstar like Lebron who can do it all.

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

The idea of a PG focused offense comes from the old NBA defense rules where it was illegal to cheat off players. A non shooter (Greg Ostertag) could just stand above the top of the arc and force his defender to be out of the play. Those rules let a PG come down and pick which guy he wanted to feed or run PnR with. In the old days, the PG was like a QB. Those days are gone.

Very much agree that we'd want a capable 3-point shooter here.

Speaking of which..... New Orleans is shopping a veteran point guard who's shooting a career best 41% on a career high 5.4 3PA per game.

Yes, I'm once again advocating we trade for Eric Bledsoe. I honestly feel like the Pelicans would accept a Satoransky and Felicio package for Bledsoe.

We upgrade without having to deal any young pieces or future assets.

I only take Bledsoe with a (reasonable) pick coming back (obviously wouldn’t be their lotto FRP).

I'd take him with Ball and NAW.

[weneeda2guard]

Every few pages I feel the need to pipe in on just how horrible of an idea this is.

I'll focus on just the PG aspect of it. The Bulls don't use a PG dominant offense. Virtually no one does. At most in the NBA, the offense is focused on a superstar like Lebron who can do it all.

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

The idea of a PG focused offense comes from the old NBA defense rules where it was illegal to cheat off players. A non shooter (Greg Ostertag) could just stand above the top of the arc and force his defender to be out of the play. Those rules let a PG come down and pick which guy he wanted to feed or run PnR with. In the old days, the PG was like a QB. Those days are gone.

Very much agree that we'd want a capable 3-point shooter here.

Speaking of which..... New Orleans is shopping a veteran point guard who's shooting a career best 41% on a career high 5.4 3PA per game.

Yes, I'm once again advocating we trade for Eric Bledsoe. I honestly feel like the Pelicans would accept a Satoransky and Felicio package for Bledsoe.

We upgrade without having to deal any young pieces or future assets.

I only take Bledsoe with a (reasonable) pick coming back (obviously wouldn’t be their lotto FRP).

Bledsoe idea is bad imo he owed money until 2023. He not worth compromising the cap space for

On the other hand if pelicans are willing to add some assets to Bledsoe it would be something to look at in order to increase our package for beal. Which is the way I think we should go if we want to land beal.

I.e lauri to a team who will give up a 1st rd pick for him

Land another 1st rd pick from pelicans for taking on the Bledsoe money.

Now you take our pick those 2 new picks coby porter jr and maybe Chandler Hutchison and send that to Washington for beal. That's coby and Hutchinson 2 young assets, porter jr for the money off the books and 3 1st rd picks. Most of the top teams willing to unload for beal won't have a more promising package than that mainly because a team like say Denver all their picks will likely be late 1st rd picks. Where as the picks we send could still be lottery picks.

[drosestruts]

Very much agree that we'd want a capable 3-point shooter here.

Speaking of which..... New Orleans is shopping a veteran point guard who's shooting a career best 41% on a career high 5.4 3PA per game.

Yes, I'm once again advocating we trade for Eric Bledsoe. I honestly feel like the Pelicans would accept a Satoransky and Felicio package for Bledsoe.

We upgrade without having to deal any young pieces or future assets.

I only take Bledsoe with a (reasonable) pick coming back (obviously wouldn’t be their lotto FRP).

Bledsoe idea is bad imo he owed money until 2023. He not worth compromising the cap space for

On the other hand if pelicans are willing to add some assets to Bledsoe it would be something to look at in order to increase our package for beal. Which is the way I think we should go if we want to land beal.

I.e lauri to a team who will give up a 1st rd pick for him

Land another 1st rd pick from pelicans for taking on the Bledsoe money.

Now you take our pick those 2 new picks coby porter jr and maybe Chandler Hutchison and send that to Washington for beal. That's coby and Hutchinson 2 young assets, porter jr for the money off the books and 3 1st rd picks. Most of the top teams willing to unload for beal won't have a more promising package than that mainly because a team like say Denver all their picks will likely be late 1st rd picks. Where as the picks we send could still be lottery picks.

Bledsoe's deal is partially guaranteed for $4M his last season. So really it's only this year ($17M), next year ($18M), last year ($4M to release him, $19M to keep him).

I don't think the Bulls will be any sort of player in free agency this summer so I don't mind having Bledsoe on the books. If summer of 22 we want more room, we cut him loose and only take a cap hit of $4M.

I don't think they'd give up a 1st to move him, certainly not a good one, maybe the Lakers 1st this summer (which will probably be 30th).

I just don't see many options for upgrading our roster without giving up anything. We can basically get Bledsoe for free, this is rare.

[Indomitable]

Every few pages I feel the need to pipe in on just how horrible of an idea this is.

I'll focus on just the PG aspect of it. The Bulls don't use a PG dominant offense. Virtually no one does. At most in the NBA, the offense is focused on a superstar like Lebron who can do it all.

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

The idea of a PG focused offense comes from the old NBA defense rules where it was illegal to cheat off players. A non shooter (Greg Ostertag) could just stand above the top of the arc and force his defender to be out of the play. Those rules let a PG come down and pick which guy he wanted to feed or run PnR with. In the old days, the PG was like a QB. Those days are gone.

You are right and I need to stay patience. In the past I have always been against this.

[DroseReturnChi]

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

Another lonzo bash thread and not watching his career in new orleans. Its easy to claim White is a better shooter but if you look at it cloesly lonzo is the better reliable shooter. not only that, that defense and playmaking is what makes him desirable.
he basically makes lauri into an all star with his feeds.

White literally does nothing better than Ball in every aspect its embarrassing. worst case, ball is a 6'6 kris dunn playing sf.

[RedBulls23]

Did a pod on Lonzo Ball. Check it. Some good insight on his season thus far.

Read on Twitter

[MrSparkle]

Look at how the Bulls play. How much they move the ball when things are going well. As soon as the ball leaves a player's hands, he has to be a threat to shoot or get underneath in order to help his teammates. For even a PG, that's most of the time. The Bulls are currently starting or even playing a total of ZERO non shooters on the perimeter. You guys are taking that for granted. As soon as you put a Lonzo Ball out there, his defender is going to cheat into the middle and screw up the entire offense. A lot of the movement you guys are seeing is afforded by the spacing.

As bad as Coby has been, teams aren't leaving him.

Another lonzo bash thread and not watching his career in new orleans. Its easy to claim White is a better shooter but if you look at it cloesly lonzo is the better reliable shooter. not only that, that defense and playmaking is what makes him desirable.
he basically makes lauri into an all star with his feeds.

White literally does nothing better than Ball in every aspect its embarrassing. worst case, ball is a 6'6 kris dunn playing sf.

Lonzo has a career FT% of 49%, after 4 years. Coby is at 80% at 2 years (and 86% this season).

Are you sincerely suggesting that Lonzo is a better shooter? Share the shrooms!

[kodo]

Lonzo's shooting in NOP, last year/this year:

Floater: 24%-21%
Mid Range; 32%-38%
Long 2: 27%-52%
3P: 37% - 32%
Assisted: 82% - 75%

So the trend is that he's really developed his long 2 at the cost of his 3 pointer. His mid range is so bad he should never take it, but that's true for many players. I think what's concerning is that he was highly assisted last year, like a PF/C at 82%, and now that he's shooting more on his own this year his 3P% has dropped significantly. This is kind of proving that he needs to be set up to hit 3s reliably, his playstyle is looking more & more like Kirk Hinrich. Good lengthy defender, can pass within an offense, scores by becoming spot up shooter instead of off the dribble. His floater in particular, which is what you need to run P&R plays, is abysmal. Tomas is a backup PG and his floater is a career 45%, and he can pull that play off.

White so far:
Floater: 37%
Mid Range; 55%
Long 2: 33%
3P: 36%
Assisted: 69%

This is White's first year of playing PG, and his shooting #s are better than Lonzo's. Floater is ahead of Lonzo's, mid range is ahead of Lonzo's, long 2 is basically the same and not a shot you want to take many of anyway, 3p% is better.
Most importantly, White's assisted % is lower so he's doing more off the dribble.

White is also averaging more assists per game than Lonzo this year.

I don't see replacing White with Lonzo as an upgrade, I like Lonzo because I'm assuming he's a pure value add to the team and we are not giving up White. If he replaces White, I don't see the win, especially if we have to pay Lonzo a bigger salary than his rookie scale of $11M. White is a cost controlled wait&see for several years.

Both guys have had a really bad year, so both could improve. I see both as gambles on player development which is the AKME strategy they've been repeating non-stop.

[Ice Man]

There have been many, many threads over the years floating the idea of trading for a high draft pick, solely because the guy was a high draft pick. This is one of them. If Lonzo had been a #22 selection, nobody would be talking about whether we should trade for a point guard who only makes half his free throws.

On occasion, those suggestions were right. In hindsight, Julius Randle would have been a fine acquisition. But 80%+ of the time the deal would have been a dud, because high draft picks who haven't panned out are overpriced assets. Much of their perceived value consists of their name recognition.

[cjbulls]

There have been many, many threads over the years floating the idea of trading for a high draft pick, solely because the guy was a high draft pick. This is one of them. If Lonzo had been a #22 selection, nobody would be talking about whether we should trade for a point guard who only makes half his free throws.

On occasion, those suggestions were right. In hindsight, Julius Randle would have been a fine acquisition. But 80%+ of the time the deal would have been a dud, because high draft picks who haven't panned out are overpriced assets. Much of their perceived value consists of their name recognition.

Eh, I think the high draft picks are picked high for good reasons, so to the extent they haven’t delivered there’s a thought that new scenery could unlock that potential. It’s a bit circumstantial though and depends on the reasoning. Its worked out for Randle and a little bit for Fultz pre-injury. Lonzo’s case is a bit more suspect since he’s been given chances to be a pg in the past and hasn’t really showed the skills. But at this point he is largely played off ball so there’s still a sliver of hope that a different offense could suit him better.

I know I proposed throwing all the Bulls cap money at Randle (for 2 years) instead of Sato/Thad as a flyer while the Bulls prepped for FA ‘21. People said we had Lauri and Wendell so we shouldn’t want a 3rd big. In the end, I now think it wouldn’t have worked yet Randle exceeded everyone’s expectations. So who knows. Randle was gifted an opportunity in NY I don’t think he’d have gotten in Chicago. And it’s not clear if it’s repeatable for a winning team.

[fleet]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/261372/Warriors-Bulls-Interested-In-Trading-For-Lonzo-Ball

If the Warriors are interested, its likely a good thought. Although the Warriors are in tough spot.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

There have been many, many threads over the years floating the idea of trading for a high draft pick, solely because the guy was a high draft pick. This is one of them. If Lonzo had been a #22 selection, nobody would be talking about whether we should trade for a point guard who only makes half his free throws.

On occasion, those suggestions were right. In hindsight, Julius Randle would have been a fine acquisition. But 80%+ of the time the deal would have been a dud, because high draft picks who haven't panned out are overpriced assets. Much of their perceived value consists of their name recognition.

Watch the games. Ball is cheked out from Nola. He have passing instincts, feel for game, can push the tempo, defend and is solid rebounder. I dont think he is great shooter but passable and good off ball shooter. Imo he is huge upgrade at point guard position and better fit with Lavine,Porter and Markkanen as main scorers. White can be combo of the bench and play with Ball as sg, when Zach is on bench. Ball would be great for Gafford also with lobs. As long as players involved are Sato or Hutch, expiring contracts and one or two seconds i would pull the trigger.

[cjbulls]

There have been many, many threads over the years floating the idea of trading for a high draft pick, solely because the guy was a high draft pick. This is one of them. If Lonzo had been a #22 selection, nobody would be talking about whether we should trade for a point guard who only makes half his free throws.

On occasion, those suggestions were right. In hindsight, Julius Randle would have been a fine acquisition. But 80%+ of the time the deal would have been a dud, because high draft picks who haven't panned out are overpriced assets. Much of their perceived value consists of their name recognition.

Watch the games. Ball is cheked out from Nola. He have passing instincts, feel for game, can push the tempo, defend and is solid rebounder. I dont think he is great shooter but passable and good off ball shooter. Imo he is huge upgrade at point guard position and better fit with Lavine,Porter and Markkanen as main scorers. White can be combo of the bench and play with Ball as sg, when Zach is on bench. Ball would be great for Gafford also with lobs. As long as players involved are Sato or Hutch, expiring contracts and one or two seconds i would pull the trigger.

You have it right, if you can buy low there is some value in the look. I don’t see NO giving him away though (which Sato/Hutch would be) unless he indicates he doesn’t want to stay and they want to do him the favor.

Giving any real long term assets doesn’t seem worth it.

[League Circles]

Are people suggesting that Ball is better than Temple or Sato? I sure don't think he is.

[BullChit]

Are people suggesting that Ball is better than Temple or Sato? I sure don't think he is.

I think it's more that Sato and Temple can't be your option long term to build around...

Whether Ball is that too is debatable but his age and "potential" makes him a better fit in that conversation.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

[LateNight]

Not giving up Thad or Temple for Lonzo. Non-starter