Shams: Bulls extend Vuc (3/60)

[ChiTownHero1992]

We're really bout to run it back... with the same team. Sigh

don't worry it'll likely only be about 40-50 games...when were sitting somewhere between 18-25 to 20-30 I think AKME will finally see that this s*** doesn't work and they will blow it up at the deadline

[dice]

Anyway, AK is pretty straight-forward in his press conferences. He said Vuc’s a big part of this process. I don’t think he signed him to trade him tomorrow.

"the process" effectively ended after the summer of 2015
"this process" stalled out after the summer of 2021

[chicago paxsons]

We're really bout to run it back... with the same team. Sigh

don't worry it'll likely only be about 40-50 games...when were sitting somewhere between 18-25 to 20-30 I think AKME will finally see that this s*** doesn't work and they will blow it up at the deadline

I wish i had that kind of optimism. I'm expecting vuc to finish his new contract with us, unless we get a new gm.

[greenl]

Disappointing but expected.

[greenl]

We're really bout to run it back... with the same team. Sigh

don't worry it'll likely only be about 40-50 games...when were sitting somewhere between 18-25 to 20-30 I think AKME will finally see that this s*** doesn't work and they will blow it up at the deadline

It's hard to believe that. If that realization hasn't set in by now- I don't know how another 40 games will change their opinion.

[TheStig]

I’m not exactly sure that WCJ is a better player than Vuc. Younger? Yes. But not necessarily better.

WCJ is better in all the impact stats, destroys Vuc every time they match up head to head, and seems pretty clearly better to me.

Also, Vuc (on this deal) will make a little over 18M this year. WCJ will make about 13.5. Less, but not by half. Just me being a bit technical I guess.

Until we know the terms of Vuc's deal it's impossible to say. I'm just assuming he's on a flat 20/20/20 for now, but who knows. If we assume 3/60 is guaranteed, than WCJ is something like 36M vs 60M over 3 years which is close enough to half for my throw away comment level of precision.

Say what? Vuc played 25 more games, had a higher per, averaged more rebounds and they shot a very similar efficency. And Vuc's Vorp was much higher and winshare and bpm too. Vuc was better. Now I'd rather have Franz than any of them and Carter has abetter deal but Vuc is better than Wendell Carter. And this is on a team with 2 wings that forget about him.

[Stratmaster]

Most of us had reasonable value at 18-20 mil. It's what we knew would happen from the start.

[Stratmaster]

I’m not exactly sure that WCJ is a better player than Vuc. Younger? Yes. But not necessarily better.

WCJ is better in all the impact stats, destroys Vuc every time they match up head to head, and seems pretty clearly better to me.

Also, Vuc (on this deal) will make a little over 18M this year. WCJ will make about 13.5. Less, but not by half. Just me being a bit technical I guess.

Until we know the terms of Vuc's deal it's impossible to say. I'm just assuming he's on a flat 20/20/20 for now, but who knows. If we assume 3/60 is guaranteed, than WCJ is something like 36M vs 60M over 3 years which is close enough to half for my throw away comment level of precision.

Say what? Vuc played 25 more games, had a higher per, averaged more rebounds and they shot a very similar efficency. And Vuc's Vorp was much higher and winshare and bpm too. Vuc was better. Now I'd rather have Franz than any of them and Carter has abetter deal but Vuc is better than Wendell Carter. And this is on a team with 2 wings that forget about him.

Oh... some are back with the "Carter is better" thing, eh?

Yeah...no...

[MikeDC]

You don't overpay because it's a zero sum game in the long run. Overpaying one guy means there's less to spend on everyone else.

Changing the budget but saying the Bulls will pay the luxury tax or the salary cap is going up by a bunch doesn't change that. If the Bulls pay Vuc $7M more than they have to, it's $7M less they have to allocate to other players.

That's true if they budget another $20M to spend or another $50M to spend. If it's $20M, then they could have $27M to spend if they hadn't overpaid Vuc. If it's and extra $50M they're willing to spend, then overpaying Vuc by $7M means they could have had $57M to spend.Raising the budget doesn't eliminate the inefficiency. You're still out $7M that you didn't have to be, and that's always $7M that's no longer available for anyone else.

[Peelboy]

We're really bout to run it back... with the same team. Sigh

don't worry it'll likely only be about 40-50 games...when were sitting somewhere between 18-25 to 20-30 I think AKME will finally see that this s*** doesn't work and they will blow it up at the deadline

It's hard to believe that. If that realization hasn't set in by now- I don't know how another 40 games will change their opinion.

I think it's a misnomer to say because they are staying the course they don't realize the obvious. The question is because of past moves (which they can't reverse now), what are the options moving forward. Resigning Vuc to a tradable deal for a productive player is better than letting him go, not opening up cap space in the process (still over). As much as people hate the word, maintaining flexibility without overpaying productive assets is probably the best they can do right now. As long as they don't lock themselves into bad/untradable deals long-term. At this point, one pick goes to SA, only long-term deal is Zach, and he's 28 and a borderline consistent allstar if healthy. They're finally off the Vuc trade, so can take a shot at it this year based on internal improvement and some roster construction (adding shooter, PG), and then blow it up with tradable assets in DeMar, Vuc, even Zach at ASB or next offseason. That'll be easier than dealing Zach at the deadline when he was barely off injury, Vuc for 2 month stint.

I'd like to see a trade of DeMar for young assets. But if in the alternative, he improves his 3 and extends his range to increase volume and rate, I could see that making a big difference. That and PW and the magic of Peter Patton (in the land of wishes).

[ChiTownHero1992]

We're really bout to run it back... with the same team. Sigh

don't worry it'll likely only be about 40-50 games...when were sitting somewhere between 18-25 to 20-30 I think AKME will finally see that this s*** doesn't work and they will blow it up at the deadline

It's hard to believe that. If that realization hasn't set in by now- I don't know how another 40 games will change their opinion.

I just an't see them going 59-63 (with current core minus Ball) and then even hovering around .500 or less for 40-50 games this season and them justifying staying with it. That would be nearly 170 games, over 2 full seasons of not showing that this can work. Any other team, GM, coach, would see that they need to move on at that point

[TheStig]

You don't overpay because it's a zero sum game in the long run. Overpaying one guy means there's less to spend on everyone else.

Changing the budget but saying the Bulls will pay the luxury tax or the salary cap is going up by a bunch doesn't change that. If the Bulls pay Vuc $7M more than they have to, it's $7M less they have to allocate to other players.

That's true if they budget another $20M to spend or another $50M to spend. If it's $20M, then they could have $27M to spend if they hadn't overpaid Vuc. If it's and extra $50M they're willing to spend, then overpaying Vuc by $7M means they could have had $57M to spend.Raising the budget doesn't eliminate the inefficiency. You're still out $7M that you didn't have to be, and that's always $7M that's no longer available for anyone else.

This makes sense if you're a small market team deathly afraid of the cap. The clippers, warriors and Suns could care less about the LT and will spend till they can't anymore. Now there is a restriction above the 2nd apron but that just started.

[prolific passer]

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[dougthonus]

Say what? Vuc played 25 more games, had a higher per, averaged more rebounds and they shot a very similar efficency. And Vuc's Vorp was much higher and winshare and bpm too. Vuc was better. Now I'd rather have Franz than any of them and Carter has abetter deal but Vuc is better than Wendell Carter. And this is on a team with 2 wings that forget about him.

Everything you named is based on counting stats. Impact stats are all the regressed +/- stuff. Vuc was one of the worst impact stat guys on the team for each of the past two seasons, ie, we always play bad when he plays.

[MikeDC]

You don't overpay because it's a zero sum game in the long run. Overpaying one guy means there's less to spend on everyone else.

Changing the budget but saying the Bulls will pay the luxury tax or the salary cap is going up by a bunch doesn't change that. If the Bulls pay Vuc $7M more than they have to, it's $7M less they have to allocate to other players.

That's true if they budget another $20M to spend or another $50M to spend. If it's $20M, then they could have $27M to spend if they hadn't overpaid Vuc. If it's and extra $50M they're willing to spend, then overpaying Vuc by $7M means they could have had $57M to spend.Raising the budget doesn't eliminate the inefficiency. You're still out $7M that you didn't have to be, and that's always $7M that's no longer available for anyone else.

This makes sense if you're a small market team deathly afraid of the cap. The clippers, warriors and Suns could care less about the LT and will spend till they can't anymore. Now there is a restriction above the 2nd apron but that just started.

It makes sense even for them. Don't mistake the fact that The Clippers, Warriors and Suns are willing to spend more with the idea that they want to. They don't, and that's why they tend to make tax reducing moves if and when they can. They still have a budget, it's just a bigger one and not so hard-lined as the Bulls.

Like even when the Suns were trading for KD, they made a separate salary dump of Dario Saric to the Thunder. It's just that more often, instead of dumping salary, they just try to move off inefficiency salary to bring in guys who can actually help.

[League Circles]

I think Vuc's on/off based stats look worse than they are cause of how awesome Drummond was lol. Vuc was still very solid. He manages to make up for his critical flaw of putrid shot challenging by being very good at defensive rebounds, not fouling, and getting deflections. He's def above average offensively, where he's truly multi skilled.

[WindyCityBorn]

"good trade chip" is not the phrase i would use to describe a $20 million/year contract for a heavily flawed starting center entering his age 33 season

It’s a good move to stay competitive. Letting him walk was never a realistic option. And they didn’t want to lowball him either. If the last year is TO or partially guaranteed this is a fair deal.

[WindyCityBorn]

Not a good choice tbh but Vuce is at least tradable at that rate. So swap him out asap. He may not be traceable in Year 2.

Vuc’s game won’t change much. He will still be very productive for next two seasons barring injury.

[WindyCityBorn]

65 players in the NBA make more than $20 million per year and max guys get $40 to $50 million per season. Vuc is easily worth this for 3 years when he just played 82 games and his game ages well.

How many of those players turn 33 by opening night?

Probably at last a 3rd of them.

[WindyCityBorn]

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If we are keeping that means Beverly is gone. I never expected him back. Use the MLE on a a good defensive PF and good shooting wing. PG will be Coby and Ayo.