Trade Derrick Rose

[alucryts]

edit: losing ben gordon allows us to get 2010 FA. if we get one he has been replaced

No, he hasn't. We could have had both.

I don't mean to keep repeating myself, but as long as this stuff keeps getting said, I might as well pipe in

? how could we afford a max free agent and add $11 million dollar ish per year ben gordons contract? if im missing something please tell me

Move Hinrich for expirings. Not sign Pargo.[/quote]
ahh ok i stand corrected

[BJ43]

i think the argument of deng replacing most of it is more reasonable

Deng is averaging 3 more pts than he did last season, he's got a long way to go to replace Gordons scoring, and he's going to have to add a consistent 3pt shot, take defenders off the dribble, make the tough shots with the clock winding down, show up in some 4th qtrs, and single handedly bring us back into games with spurts of offense before he can even think about replacing most of Gordons offensive production.

Deng just needs to go out there and try and have his best season, nothing Deng, Hinrich, Gray or Pargo does is going to 'replace' Gordons role on this team. My point was you cant simply replace a skill by having others chip in...they either have it or they dont. If we lost Noah, it wouldnt simply be a case of others doing a better job rebounding...sure more rebs would be available by default, but we would be a worse rebounding team, just like how we're a worse offensive team without our previous best scorer

I wasnt going to get involved until I saw the inclusion of the breakdown of how just a few extra pts but a whole bunch of guys replaces BG's contribution and im sorry but thats silly, and the proof is there against that being the case

[alucryts]

i think the argument of deng replacing most of it is more reasonable

Deng is averaging 3 more pts than he did last season, he's got a long way to go to replace Gordons scoring, and he's going to have to add a consistent 3pt shot, take defenders off the dribble, make the tough shots with the clock winding down, show up in some 4th qtrs, and single handedly bring us back into games with spurts of offense before he can even think about replacing most of Gordons offensive production.

Deng just needs to go out there and try and have his best season, nothing Deng, Hinrich, Gray or Pargo does is going to 'replace' Gordons role on this team. My point was you cant simply replace a skill by having others chip in...they either have it or they dont. If we lost Noah, it wouldnt simply be a case of others doing a better job rebounding...sure more rebs would be available by default, but we would be a worse rebounding team, just like how we're a worse offensive team without our previous best scorer

I wasnt going to get involved until I saw the inclusion of the breakdown of how just a few extra pts but a whole bunch of guys replaces BG's contribution and im sorry but thats silly, and the proof is there against that being the case

never said deng HAS replaced him, I meant it was more reasonable to say he could replace it I don't think he will and its obvious he hasn't

[Rerisen]

Totally, and if the Cavs lose Lebron next season, they can replace his production, all they need is for the following

Z - 6 more pts
Varajeo - 4 more pts
West - 4 more pts
Williams - 8 more pts
Hickson - 3 more pts
Parker - 3 more pts

* Each of them would need to also up their assists and rebounding numbers by at least one and there you have it, production replaced AND they saved having to pay for a max contract for the dancing queen.

the difference is bullybullz puts down very reasonable achievements of 1-3 ppg. the flaw in it is not everybody improves and regressions have to be considered.

That’s not how it works. Not for replacing a Lebron/Wade, not even for replacing Ben Gordon either. Wishing the whole team were better offensive players than they are doesn’t make it so.

Unfortunately, these players are not efficient scorers. They only get so many shots per game and they only make a certain percentage of those shots. All do so a less efficient rate than Gordon. You can take the worst offensive team in the league and say well if every guy on that team just made one more shot a game, they would be a great offense. It’s not going to happen. And it’s not going to happen with the Bulls.

And the offense stunk just as bad before Kirk and Tyrus got injured. So using them as an excuse makes little sense.

[AAU Teammate]

No, no, no. Lets trade Elton Brand



I was no BG fanboy by any stretch...but when you look at what Hinrich and Nocioni were paid, it's difficult to argue the Bulls didnt screw this up. BG could still be here as your bench scorer for 10M

We needed to do what the Knicks did. Clear out everything you can for 2010, even if it means being worse. The Bulls wanted to keep Hinrich so they could make their run last year. To me, that sells tickets but doesnt move your franchise towards a championship.

It would be crazy good to head into this free agent class with Rose/Gordon/Salmons/Deng/Noah on board.

The only argument to the contrary is that whether it be Kirk or BG, the Bulls were planning on clearing that salary spot anyway in time to re-sign either Noah or Rose down the road. It's true that you cant bunch too many guys up with big money, especially before you know what the CBA's going to be reworked as.

[jax98]

That’s not how it works. Not for replacing a Lebron/Wade, not even for replacing Ben Gordon either. Wishing the whole team were better offensive players than they are doesn’t make it so.

Unfortunately, these players are not efficient scorers. They only get so many shots per game and they only make a certain percentage of those shots. All do so a less efficient rate than Gordon. You can take the worst offensive team in the league and say well if every guy on that team just made one more shot a game, they would be a great offense. It’s not going to happen. And it’s not going to happen with the Bulls.

And the offense stunk just as bad before Kirk and Tyrus got injured. So using them as an excuse makes little sense.

+1

Dimensions, dimensions, dimensions.

Gordon brought with him a scoring dimension that consisted of free throws, three-point shots, drives and mid-range shooting. Meaning he was versatile and the way he got his points are completely different than someone like Pargo or Hinrich, who generally have limited offensive versatility.

If people want to think players can just add a couple of points, fine. But it's the wrong way to look at it. Roles would have to be re-defined, the schemes would have to change, and the entire offensive game plan would have to structured to that particular roster.

[Rerisen]

Dimensions, dimensions, dimensions.

Gordon brought with him a scoring dimension that consisted of free throws, three-point shots, drives and mid-range shooting. Meaning he was versatile and the way he got his points are completely different than someone like Pargo or Hinrich, who generally have limited offensive versatility.

If people want to think players can just add a couple of points, fine. But it's the wrong way to look at it. Roles would have to be re-defined, the schemes would have to change, and the entire offensive game plan would have to structured to that particular roster.

Right. Even then you can only achieve so much out of schemes, you can't infuse players with new talents they don't have. The whole attitude of just spreading the wealth around on offense more is so silly because you realize that the same thing could be said about fixing a subpar defense.

Take a bad defensive team (or player, as people liked to accuse BG of that) and then just say if each starter, or a particular player, on the team could get one more stop per night, we would have a much better defense! And actually, that argument would make a lot more sense and seem more achievable than offensive players suddenly getting better out of nowhere. Because defense is a lot about effort and teamwork, it would seem simpler in comparison to expect that you could disrupt one more shot a night per opponent.

And of course we have proof of so-called bad defenders being on great defensive teams, as we saw with Gordon and Curry when Skiles was coaching here.

There is a reason that scoring gets paid at a premium in this league. Because you can't fake being a great offensive player. It's not something that really fluctuates much based on 'trying real hard'.

You would think 18 games through the season with the offense looking lifeless and confused, people would stop with the simple eenie meenie miney moe adding of points on to players as some kind of realistic solution.

[jax98]

Right. Even then you can only achieve so much out of schemes, you can't infuse players with new talents they don't have. The whole attitude of just spreading the wealth around on offense more is so silly because you realize that the same thing could be said about fixing a subpar defense.

Take a bad defensive team (or player, as people liked to accuse BG of that) and then just say if each starter, or a particular player, on the team could get one more stop per night, we would have a much better defense! And actually, that argument would make a lot more sense and seem more achievable than offensive players suddenly getting better out of nowhere. Because defense is a lot about effort and teamwork, it would seem simpler in comparison to expect that you could disrupt one more shot a night per opponent.

And of course we have proof of so-called bad defenders being on great defensive teams, as we saw with Gordon and Curry when Skiles was coaching here.

There is a reason that scoring gets paid at a premium in this league. Because you can't fake being a great offensive player. It's not something that really fluctuates much based on 'trying real hard'.

You would think 18 games through the season with the offense looking lifeless and confused, people would stop with the simple eenie meenie miney moe adding of points on to players as some kind of realistic solution.

Agreed throughout.

These are the times where I wonder what would happen if we got Bosh. Would the Bulls be open to the idea of letting Rose and Bosh run the floor 37 minutes a night, and rack up a ridiculous amount of points, or would they tell Bosh to improve his defense and take shots from a half-court set instead?

[The 6ft Hurdle]

That’s not how it works. Not for replacing a Lebron/Wade, not even for replacing Ben Gordon either. Wishing the whole team were better offensive players than they are doesn’t make it so.

Unfortunately, these players are not efficient scorers. They only get so many shots per game and they only make a certain percentage of those shots. All do so a less efficient rate than Gordon. You can take the worst offensive team in the league and say well if every guy on that team just made one more shot a game, they would be a great offense. It’s not going to happen. And it’s not going to happen with the Bulls.

And the offense stunk just as bad before Kirk and Tyrus got injured. So using them as an excuse makes little sense.

+1

Dimensions, dimensions, dimensions.

Gordon brought with him a scoring dimension that consisted of free throws, three-point shots, drives and mid-range shooting. Meaning he was versatile and the way he got his points are completely different than someone like Pargo or Hinrich, who generally have limited offensive versatility.

If people want to think players can just add a couple of points, fine. But it's the wrong way to look at it. Roles would have to be re-defined, the schemes would have to change, and the entire offensive game plan would have to structured to that particular roster.

Just want to add that improvements to a basketball team don't happen by making little manipulations on cute neatly packaged little stat sheets. Some people seem to look at these statistics and think that these scoring averages are like some kind of standardized test where little improvements can be made. If only we just study/play/try hard enough, we can improve our scoring.

It's a dynamic sloppy tug-of-war each game against opponents who also study/play/try hard, of which stats and averages are just a by-product. In-game, you either have the strength, or the scoring muscle to pull you each game or you don't. If we stick to that metaphor, that of a tug-of-war, Gordon with his bursts of strength or streaks of scoring, was more apt to pull things our way more often than not.

How are we doing with these tug-of-wars now?

I think were lacking a lot of that firepower that made this team so exciting. I wouldn't be surprised if we were almost at a point where just trying to prove now that we can survive bad teams, the same mentality we had at the start of this decade.

I don't know that anyone except maybe Rose has an extra gear to pull us out of tight situations, and even then he's limited because he hasn't proved that it's his game, that he could replace BG, and he can only take certain shots.

[BULLHITTER]

These are the times where I wonder what would happen if we got Bosh. Would the Bulls be open to the idea of letting Rose and Bosh run the floor 37 minutes a night, and rack up a ridiculous amount of points, or would they tell Bosh to improve his defense and take shots from a half-court set instead?

given what we've seen with the bulls offense, this is a statement that bears notice; this notion of "hard working, blue collar" ballplayers who try hard is a sell the bulls have being doing for quite a while now, and it's very concerning. it's almost as if they see the formula (or have concocted such) for making profits year after year, keeping/having a just below, so-so, or a bit above average team, perpetually being deemed "young or "built".

i've been around this franchise since its inception, so i'm wholly and realistically aware of how difficult it is to put together a championship roster, but in the last 10-12 years it's become apparent to me that outside of the luck of drafting a generational type player (which remains to be seen about rose) this organization is of the philosophy of staying consistently frugal while mildly entertaining.

EDIT; great posts, as usual from the above guys.......

[nitetrain8603]

Who are these "parts" you speak of? Give us some names. Remember a trade cannot happen if the other team is not willing to accept.

I'd do a DeRozan + Bosh trade for starters. I'd be more than happy to trade for Mayo personally. I'd be more than happy to possibly try to trade him for Brandon Jennings. If the Nuggets never got Billups, I would've traded him and Deng for Carmelo. There are a ton of players I would trade Rose for, and some of them we would have to package a slight bit more, and some of them, we would get more quality in return. Of course I can't say who because I'm not an official scout or GM, so I can't scour to see what's out there.

With that said, it works both ways. So many people stated we could replace Ben Gordon easily, without a problem. But no one ever gave realistic names. I feel with Rose, people still think he has true superstar ability. I personally, don't feel this way, but he has high enough potential and is definitely young enough to get you a nice hauling.

I just don't see other teams willing to accept those deals. Yet. In time things may change but at this moment I just don't see other teams saying "Yes" to those deals.


Regarding "he who shall not be named" this is how to make up his 20 points. If everyone is healthy:

Salmons-1 more PPG
Hinrich-2 more PPG
Rose-3 more PPG
Thomas-2 more PPG
Gibson/Johnson a combined 5 PPG
Miller- 1 more PPG
Deng get's 18 a game
Noah-3 more PPG
Pargo(If he is in the rotation, hope not) 3 PPG

Add all that up and you get a bit more than 20 PPG not counting Deng. Along with more backcourt height/rebounding/ball movement/defense. WIth Thomas and Hinrich out though all this goes out the window as guys like freaking Lindsey Hunter and Pargo playing 20 mins chucking as many shots as he possibly can. No depth right now whether it be frontcourt or backcourt.

If anything this proves how valuable Kirk Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas are this season.

Yet, all those things have not happened. I'm pretty damn sure, we scored more points with Ben, and most importantly, we did so with much better efficiency. None of those players combined or individually will space our floor, nor can they score efficiently as proven so far this year.

[nitetrain8603]

Who are these "parts" you speak of? Give us some names. Remember a trade cannot happen if the other team is not willing to accept.

I'd do a DeRozan + Bosh trade for starters. I'd be more than happy to trade for Mayo personally. I'd be more than happy to possibly try to trade him for Brandon Jennings. If the Nuggets never got Billups, I would've traded him and Deng for Carmelo. There are a ton of players I would trade Rose for, and some of them we would have to package a slight bit more, and some of them, we would get more quality in return. Of course I can't say who because I'm not an official scout or GM, so I can't scour to see what's out there.

With that said, it works both ways. So many people stated we could replace Ben Gordon easily, without a problem. But no one ever gave realistic names. I feel with Rose, people still think he has true superstar ability. I personally, don't feel this way, but he has high enough potential and is definitely young enough to get you a nice hauling.

Melo, Bosh, Durant etc are top 10 caliber players..those guys dont get traded..in the unlikely event that guys like that ever get on the block, yes you can trade Rose or at least think long and hard about it. No issue with that but Jennings and Mayo? have u seen those 2 play lately? they have been as bad if not worse than Rose has been. Jennings hasnt cracked 42% FG in like 7 straight games and he is throwing up a looot of bricks. Mayo has been pretty unimpressive himself. Trading Rose for any of those guys would be a lateral move at best. Dude is still 21 yrs old and has as much talent if not more than some of these other guys. Surround him with good pieces and see what you have with him before you look to move him. Dude is one year removed from a very good ROY season, dont you think you at least owe it to him to give him another year before you bail?

It's not lately, it's about their potential, what they have shown, what their ceiling is. Jennings has always had the talent and his shooting has greatly improved from going overseas. He has better defense than Rose and stroke is much better, despite shooting 43% per game. Also remember, teams are gunning for him now. He's really his only team's option offensively like Rose. I'm pretty sure his eFG% is higher than Rose's, but someone else can look up the numbers as I'm about to go to work.

As far as Mayo, he's incredibly better defensively. It's not even close. That alone makes him worth it. His ability to be a true combo guard and score. He has a very high basketball IQ and unlike Rose, he's agressive at all times. Kobe had similar growing pains to Mayo. Mayo has to learn though, when he should take over, and when to pump the brakes. In the end, I believe he will have a better career than Rose overall.

[JOHN]

Rose is too passive.

its one thing to be passive when you have Bryant,Pierce or James as a teammate and a totally different story to defer to teammates like Deng,Salmons and Miller.

This is what we get with Rose.A reliable point guard but nothing close to spectacular.He's like Rod Strickland.

[AirP.]

Rose is too passive.

its one thing to be passive when you have Bryant,Pierce or James as a teammate and a totally different story to defer to teammates like Deng,Salmons and Miller.

This is what we get with Rose.A reliable point guard but nothing close to spectacular.He's like Rod Strickland.

Rod Strickland created shots for teammates, Rose basically only creates shots for teammates when he's attacking the basket and kicking out or gets assists with simple passes in the offense and players hitting a shot created by the offense, not by Rose.

The more Rose with the ball, attacking or even just taking shots, the better for this current team.

[rsavaj]

I really don't think you guys should trade a 21 year old PG who has shown flashes of becoming a BEAST.

[Rerisen]

He seems to often make up his mind at the beginning of a possession what he is going to do. Its like he decides:

- Pass it off to someone else
- Drive and kick
- Drive and shoot
Before he even sees the situation because a lot of the times when he makes these decisions, they aren't the right ones. He needs to attack and then decide what to do based on how the defense reacts.

He really has a lot to learn.

This is a keen observation.

I watched almost the whole Bucks game yesterday and I would say Brandon Jennings is quicker than Derrick Rose and it makes a difference in how easy it is for him to get into the lane or to make plays for his team. Not faster (as in a straight line) but 'quicker' as in agility, change of direction, going side to side, splitting through small areas, etc.

Of course Jennings is too small for his own good, he has little strength or bulk to protect his body in the paint and can't finish real well. He also doesn't get many calls as a rookie. But just for creating opportunities for himself, this jitterbug type speed is a boon to small PG's. Derrick is a big PG, and doesn't operate in the same way. He is very methodical as you pointed out.

Derrick also has an unorthodox jumper that he has to load up, which makes it harder for him to make quick moves and then pull up in a small space for a shot. Jennings does this quite often. Makes a quick penetration move, but then pulls up at the edge of the paint, using the space he's created for a quick jumper.

I think Bulls fans have kind of overrated this idea of Rose as a "mini-Lebron". LeBron is a freak of nature, just the right size and strength where he is either faster than everyone or stronger than everyone. Rose is big and athletic for a PG, but still one of the smaller players on the floor every night. He has the speed to get around his man, but his size also sometimes becomes a hindrance when he has to dart or scoot past bigger players.

Rose plays most of the game at a much slower speed than smaller quicker players like Jennings and Parker. Rose has to engage his speed or athleticism for a particular play and once he gets it going, he is most often focused on scoring, and less on probing the defense to get someone a shot.

When you watch someone like Nash or CP3 attack the defense, they will often attack in a baiting fashion, sort of ready to take a lane if its there, but also carefully watching the D for them to over commit, so they can then hit a teammate. Rose doesn't really have the same functional quickness to do this when he is just running the offense. He dribbles and moves at a leisurely pace up and to the point he is ready to make an aggressive drive, or use a burst of speed to go all the way to the rim. Rose is just as good at starting a drive, but not as good at stopping one or faking one.

It's like he only has two speeds. Slow and all out attack. And sadly, he's in "slow" for 80% of the game and simply isn't a very effective player in this mode.

I don't know if this is something he can improve upon or learn, but right now it seems a striking difference between Rose and other athletic guards. And I think its the reason we end up accusing Rose of being passive so much, and why he looks like he isn't having a big impact on the offense accept for when he "turns it on" for any one particular play.

[alucryts]

I really don't think you guys should trade a 21 year old PG who has shown flashes of becoming a BEAST.

but he hasn't produced NOW !!!!!




lol i agree this topic is a bit of an over reaction to say the least.

[AirP.]

Sham around? Can Portland move that 9 million that they owe D.Miles? If so there's possibly an opportunity for both teams to help each other. I think it's not going out on the limb to say Hinrich is a better fit for them then A.Miller and the reverse could be said of A.Miller in Chicago. Not to mention sending them B.Miller for some youth to offset the overall trade.

[alucryts]

He seems to often make up his mind at the beginning of a possession what he is going to do. Its like he decides:

- Pass it off to someone else
- Drive and kick
- Drive and shoot
Before he even sees the situation because a lot of the times when he makes these decisions, they aren't the right ones. He needs to attack and then decide what to do based on how the defense reacts.

He really has a lot to learn.

This is a keen observation.

I watched almost the whole Bucks game yesterday and I would say Brandon Jennings is quicker than Derrick Rose and it makes a difference in how easy it is for him to get into the lane or to make plays for his team. Not faster (as in a straight line) but 'quicker' as in agility, change of direction, going side to side, splitting through small areas, etc.

Of course Jennings is too small for his own good, he has little strength or bulk to protect his body in the paint and can't finish real well. He also doesn't get many calls as a rookie. But just for creating opportunities for himself, this jitterbug type speed is a boon to small PG's. Derrick is a big PG, and doesn't operate in the same way. He is very methodical as you pointed out.

Derrick also has an unorthodox jumper that he has to load up, which makes it harder for him to make quick moves and then pull up in a small space for a shot. Jennings does this quite often. Makes a quick penetration move, but then pulls up at the edge of the paint, using the space he's created for a quick jumper.

I think Bulls fans have kind of overrated this idea of Rose as a "mini-Lebron". LeBron is a freak of nature, just the right size and strength where he is either faster than everyone or stronger than everyone. Rose is big and athletic for a PG, but still one of the smaller players on the floor every night. He has the speed to get around his man, but his size also sometimes becomes a hindrance when he has to dart or scoot past bigger players.

Rose plays most of the game at a much slower speed than smaller quicker players like Jennings and Parker. Rose has to engage his speed or athleticism for a particular play and once he gets it going, he is most often focused on scoring, and less on probing the defense to get someone a shot.

When you watch someone like Nash or CP3 attack the defense, they will often attack in a baiting fashion, sort of ready to take a lane if its there, but also carefully watching the D for them to over commit, so they can then hit a teammate. Rose doesn't really have the same functional quickness to do this when he is just running the offense. He dribbles and moves at a leisurely pace up and to the point he is ready to make an aggressive drive, or use a burst of speed to go all the way to the rim. Rose is just as good at starting a drive, but not as good at stopping one or faking one.

It's like he only has two speeds. Slow and all out attack. And sadly, he's in "slow" for 80% of the game and simply isn't a very effective player in this mode.

I don't know if this is something he can improve upon or learn, but right now it seems a striking difference between Rose and other athletic guards. And I think its the reason we end up accusing Rose of being passive so much, and why he looks like he isn't having a big impact on the offense accept for when he "turns it on" for any one particular play.

I would say if you had to choose between a Lamborghini and Ferrari for speed and agility, its more objective and either answer would be correct

personally i prefer a bigger point guard because they are naturally going to have an advantage over players they face. a leg up if you will. also derrick being a lot bigger yet just as fast and agile is kind of a big thing and that alone gives rose a higher ceiling.

if derrick could steal jennings 3 point shot, id be in heaven. id rather have rose's shot inside the arc tho, its hella more accurate right now.

ehh mini lebron is way off imo. two completely different positions. Id say a lot closer to wade than anything

i think this boils down to rose's role on the team. he is stuck in a pure point guard mode slowly moving towards a combo guard mode. the sooner he becomes most combo guard and part pure point he will be a superstar. he can turn on his incredible speed at will it seems. need moar will

i agree nash and cp3 are in another world

see my thread for my reaction to this http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=964989

colors are fun (no homo)

[Rerisen]

personally i prefer a bigger point guard because they are naturally going to have an advantage over players they face. a leg up if you will. also derrick being a lot bigger yet just as fast and agile is kind of a big thing and that alone gives rose a higher ceiling.

I'm not saying I would rather have BJ. Just right now, he understands much better how to be a 'scoring PG'. Rose can't seem to figure how to do both things at once on the same play. Instead he comes down and is either the 'Pure' PG (lazy pass and stand in corner) or he is a scorer (kind of a like a small Maggette bowling his way to the rim).

Sometimes when he actually gets to the rim, its like he gets ambushed by a guilty conscience and suddenly interrupts a good shot opportunity to pass to someone in a worse position for getting a shot. He's just very confused right now and I don't think Vinny and this offense is leading him out of the maze he is in one bit.