Zach Lavine: Offered 4/80 from Kings update p26 Bulls Matched

[kulaz3000]

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[mymysql]

Thread should be re-titled "2018 Zach Lavine roast"

[SensiBull]

He can put up a Season like Harden did the last 3 years and People would still cry about it. That's how far we are now.

Some Need to chill and just wait and see.

Listen, it took the dissolution of lob city at the right time, a pure, HOF PG to choose Houuston in freee agency, and a lot of encouragement. before his arrrival to start sharing. the ball. The result? They are somewhere between the 2nd and 4th most likely to win the conference.

Meanwhile, while perhaps not you personally, there are posters who will take hesitancy to splash cash all over Zach, or to put together a package to 'move up' to grab Michael Porter, Jr., as evidence that the Bulls only want a 'soft rebuild.'

Listen, just because the trip from LA to Vegas passes through desert doesn't mean the persson who travels that highway doesn't value hydration.

Meanwhile, on little more than half the salary, Boston and Indiana not only took LeBron 7-games but, has both the youth to continue their rosters and the cash to add to them.

The Bulls are competing with THAT, in THIS conference.

Nevermind James Harden.

[Stratmaster]

What's funny is that many here chided the FO for not making the Bulls "younger and more athletic" when they signed Rondo and Wade, but then when they get someone who is clearly younger and more athletic, they complain when the FO decides to slightly overpay said younger and more athletic player in order to keep him, especially when players of his caliber and potential haven't signed onto this franchise as a free agent in the past 30 years, if ever.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/alltime_transactions.html

These are the players John Paxson has extended before or during restricted free agency:

Tyson Chandler
Kirk Hinrich
Luol Deng
Andres Nocioni
Joakim Noah
Taj Gibson
Jimmy Butler
Nikola Mirotic

We knew what we were getting with all of those players to varying degrees. Even Chandler solidified himself as a defensive force, despite frustration and inconsistency. So these deals were merely a confirmation of ability with a gamble on additional improvement (except Mirotic, who was basically signed to be traded later).

Relative to what he's done as a Bull, LaVine is the biggest unknown that Paxson has re-signed as an RFA. His flaws are apparent, but we haven't seen his strengths have a positive impact in Chicago. Yet, we just gave him the highest annual salary of any Bulls RFA ever. I think he's capable of improving, but the deal on paper doesn't feel right.

As percentage of cap floor, I think Lavibes deal is comparable to some of the other RFA'S that Pax signed.

Great point. The fact that an RFA signs for more than they did 10, 15, 20 years ago is no reason for concern; although I am I pissed I can't get gas for $1.75 a gallon. So sick of paying that gas pump twice what it is worth.

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[Stratmaster]

I'm sorry, but I don't know why Zach is suddenly getting so much negative exposure because of some off handed comment he made about contract negotiations. Plenty of had the same issues, with the Bulls no less, Noah, Gibson etc. People feel they are worth something, and get their feelings hurt, I don't think he said anything malicious. Plus, he clearly had no ill will towards the Bulls being that he came right back to support the team in Summer league soon after he got the contract.

Now it's come to a point where everything he does and says is being looked in a negative light, which is fascinating because he has been a stand up professional throughout his career, and just because he happened to express his feelings now he is somehow a villain. When players don't speak their mind, they are considered weak and flaky, but when they do, they are just criticised, it's a lose lose situation for them.

To me the angst about the contract extension should be steered towards the Bulls front office not Zach.

I mentioned earlier as long as we don't see spillover later with Butleresque complaining about teammates, coaches, on court or locker room issues... I am cool with it.

I don't like the tone of what he said but everyone has the right to negotiate and part of that is positioning.

The contract negotiations are over now. His attitude seems to be focused on the right direction. Time for him to play ball and shut up the haters.

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[Stratmaster]

Please. We all heard it. Just because he's moonwalking now does not mean we didn't hear it as it was meant.

So Pax did not demote him in a public press conference
Friedle there attack dog did not come out talking about him taking 14 million.

Both sides went at each other or do you not think the Bulls tried to marginalize him to the media. Be fair in judgement.

It is fine to believe he is overpaid.
It is okay to wish we had a chance to sign Jimmy and Kyrie.

Still both sides,threw shade so stop being so one sided.

There aren't 2 sides on this. The Bulls never did one thing to elicit the negativity launched against them. If anything, they totally honored him with a great offer. He had 2 legit options at that point.

- take the generous offer
- shop around for even more. Stay mute, and be respectful of the process and the Bulls.

Guy chose neither. He went after more (1.5). But also he went after the Bulls and played into a damaging pre-existing narrative against the franchise. Namely, that they are cheap and unappreciative of players. So tell me how the Bulls deserved that diss from Lavine?

To be fair, zach didn't go after 1.5 mil. more. He ended up getting 1.5 million more. He went after whatever he could get, as I would expect him to.

He also didn't say a word about them being cheap, any history, or any preexisting narrative. You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

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[Stratmaster]

I'm sorry, but I don't know why Zach is suddenly getting so much negative exposure because of some off handed comment he made about contract negotiations. Plenty of had the same issues, with the Bulls no less, Noah, Gibson etc. People feel they are worth something, and get their feelings hurt, I don't think he said anything malicious. Plus, he clearly had no ill will towards the Bulls being that he came right back to support the team in Summer league soon after he got the contract.

Now it's come to a point where everything he does and says is being looked in a negative light, which is fascinating because he has been a stand up professional throughout his career, and just because he happened to express his feelings now he is somehow a villain. When players don't speak their mind, they are considered weak and flaky, but when they do, they are just criticised, it's a lose lose situation for them.

To me the angst about the contract extension should be steered towards the Bulls front office not Zach.

I'm definitely more upset at the Bulls for first offering that fool $74M but it got even worse when they matched that idiotic offer from the dumbest team in NBA history. But, come on, that dick just bragged about being humble. He's been telling us how hard he works for the last few days. Think on that one for just a second. Then, to add insult to injury, he tried to equate an NBA contract negotiation that was between $74MILLION and $78.5MILLION being the difference to people trying to "support and provide for their family". Now, that is an insult to just about anybody who is worth less than a few million. You know, normal people. Or how about people who truly work hard for a living and REALLY have to worry about supporting and providing for their families.

Sorry, man, it's just a bad look. It's like D Rose post ACL 2.0. Every time he speaks a new level of idiocy is revealed.

Respectfully, this is a bad take. It insinuates that NBA players don't work as hard as the average working Joe. These guys spend hours and hours every day of their life, nowadays from the time they're about 9 years old, either working on their game or in the gym. If the average working Joe worked as hard as these players do the average working Joe probably wouldn't be just an average working Joe.

Zac was getting murdered in the Press, on message boards Etc. I don't blame him necessarily for speaking out during contract negotiations, although I think he could have positioned himself without the tone. I can see where talking about how hard he is working would be his way of trying to address the criticism.

Again, as long as we don't see this type of tone spill over into comments about the team, teammates, head coach Etc I can live with it.

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[sami71]

He also didn't say a word about them being cheap, any history, or any preexisting narrative. You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

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Didn't Zach tweat that he was sad that he had to go to another organization to get what he deserves. To me that means he said Bulls were cheap IMO, although English is my third language and correct me if I am wrong. It was before the Bulls matched iirc.

[MisterRoy]

He said he didn't want to sign an offer sheet. It sounds like he wanted the Bulls to come with their best offer first.


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[Stratmaster]

Well, yeah. That would be a really good thing for him to do at this point.

Of course this conversation has come to this. Just disgusting.

Get off your self righteous high horse. Shame on you Kulaz. You're supposed to be a moderator here.

Me saying a player should shut up and play is somehow "disgusting"? Does that offend you?

lol.

That phrase has a certain recent connotation due to recent political commentary around athletes. I know you didn't intend it that way but I have a feeling that is where the disdain is coming from.

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[Stratmaster]

About 25 years ago I was at a U2 concert in the 2nd row Center. I yelled at Bono to just shut up and play (and he heard me) because he wouldn't shut up after almost every song going off on some political rant.

Some people might have found that disgusting too. I didn't care because I didn't pay to listen to that fool talk about politics.

Well when Zach starts talking politics, or contracts, while dribbling you can slam him

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[Stratmaster]

Well I would encourage everyone to keep in mind he is only 23 years old. I know if my perception was that I have to be the leader of a professional organization and reports asked me questions daily, I would probably have said dumb things. Can we as a fan base give him at least a full season of being healthy and active participants with this team and city before we render a final verdict.

If for nothing else, but for own enjoyment of watching a young man and young team grow.

Amen Ayman

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[Stratmaster]

Here is the thing...
I don't want to hear tired cliches and trite platitudes. "I've got a family to feed" is about as trite as it gets.....especially when somehow $74M sucks but $78.5M is fine. I don't care about his actual salary, but I do care about his cap hit and how that impacts future signings.

Also, I'm all for honesty, but that isn't honest...it is just empty words.

Honest would be..."There is an old saying...you don't get what you are worth, you get what you negotiate. I know either way the amount of money on the table is extraordinary, but NBA careers are short and I only have one shot at this negotiation. There are no hard feelings, but my agent is not doing his job if he isn't trying to chase ever last dime. Now that we are done with that bit of unpleasantness....I know that it is up to me to show Chicago that it was money well spent....let's play ball."

Stop making assumptions as if you really know what the Bulls offer really was. By all reports from KC throughout the process, it was the Bulls organization wish to sign Zach for a contract between 14-16mil a season. None of these two numbers add up to 74mil for four seasons. It was not until two days before the Kings offer KC started reporting that the Bulls would be comfortable at 18mil per, but there was not even any indication it was offered. The Bulls organization tried to do damage control by leaking out words to its mouthpiece KC that they would be comfortable with 18mil so that people don't say that they are cheap. Zach was right, because his whole intention was to stay with the Bulls, but that offer never came until he got it from the Kings. He was more valued by another organization. This is the same organization that is selling second round picks for 3 millions dollars at a time when they are rebuilding. Something I realize about some Bulls fans is that they hate to see athletes get paid their worth. This goes back to the days of Scottie Pippen.

Well for that matter, stop making the assumption that he was more valued by another organization. For all we know, the Kings threw a high, but not crazy high offer out there hoping the Bulls would not want to lose him for nothing....and we bit.
Using your own numbers..a lot of people would be much happier at $14M-$16M. The lower the better because it is more cap space next year (which is my big concern).
And did you just say paid their worth? WTF?! Lavine is being paid on potential, because his body of work is not worth his new contract. Even with that, if there were no salary cap, I would not care if it was 4/60, 4/80, or 4/100. But since there IS a salary cap, the numbers matter.

I wish people would stop with the narrative that that Sacramento just threw a number out there to try and get the Bulls to pay a couple million dollars more. That's a pretty ridiculous take.

No team is going to risk putting 20 million dollars a year on the line just to bid up another team betting on that team matching the offer. The Kings wanted Zach, and the comments after the fact indicate that even more.



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[Stratmaster]

He also didn't say a word about them being cheap, any history, or any preexisting narrative. You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

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Didn't Zach tweat that he was sad that he had to go to another organization to get what he deserves. To me that means he said Bulls were cheap IMO, although English is my third language and correct me if I am wrong. It was before the Bulls matched iirc.

You are wrong. Also, when asked to explain that comment, he said he wanted it known that he didn't want to have to talk to any other teams. His intention was to remain a bull.

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[dumbell78]

I've steered clear of this debate since we matched. Not much to debate, I mean it's done. Just read the comments he made after the fact. Look I just think the kid isn't all that bright and doesn't fully grasp the nuances of these conversations.

I gotta root for the kid now and hope he balls out, for all our sanity he better. I can't talk about this kid for the next four years.

[johnnyvann840]

There aren't 2 sides on this. ...
---------
But also he went after the Bulls and played into a damaging pre-existing narrative against the franchise. Namely, that they are cheap and unappreciative of players. So tell me how the Bulls deserved that diss from Lavine?

You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

What fleet said is what he insinuated. Absolutely. And I didn't know you were a mod.

Again, as long as we don't see this type of tone spill over into comments about the team, teammates, head coach Etc. I can live with it.

I'm sure he'll be glad you gave him that latitude.

He also didn't say a word about them being cheap, any history, or any preexisting narrative. You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

Didn't Zach tweat that he was sad that he had to go to another organization to get what he deserves. To me that means he said Bulls were cheap IMO, although English is my third language and correct me if I am wrong. It was before the Bulls matched iirc.

That is exactly what it meant. And don't worry, your English is better than most natural born US citizens.

Sorry, man, it's just a bad look. It's like D Rose post ACL 2.0. Every time he speaks a new level of idiocy is revealed.

Respectfully, this is a bad take. It insinuates that NBA players don't work as hard as the average working Joe. These guys spend hours and hours every day of their life, nowadays from the time they're about 9 years old, either working on their game or in the gym. If the average working Joe worked as hard as these players do the average working Joe probably wouldn't be just an average working Joe.

lol. Do you really think a 9 year old kid looks at playing basketball (or even practicing basketball) as WORK?

And no, you can put these guys on a pedestal, I won't. Most haven't exactly toiled, they run around in their underwear and play a kids game they love. Just like everybody else, many of these players do work really hard but some of them are so naturally gifted that they can make it to the pros without putting much work in. Besides, to the vast majority of them, playing basketball is not work either. Going to the gym and hoisting up a couple hundred shots is not working on your game. See my golf comment.. just because someone is out on the course everyday doesn't mean they're working hard to be a great golfer. They might just be getting drunk. Working would be getting down in the practice trap for hours in 105 degree heat, working on chipping and putting for hours and then driving 500 balls with your swing coach.

Well when Zach starts talking politics, or contracts, while dribbling you can slam him .

Why, thanks. I'll keep that in mind, boss.

self righteous much?

[Stratmaster]

There aren't 2 sides on this. ...
---------
But also he went after the Bulls and played into a damaging pre-existing narrative against the franchise. Namely, that they are cheap and unappreciative of players. So tell me how the Bulls deserved that diss from Lavine?

You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

What fleet said is what he insinuated. Absolutely. And I didn't know you were a mod.

Again, as long as we don't see this type of tone spill over into comments about the team, teammates, head coach Etc. I can live with it.

I'm sure he'll be glad you gave him that latitude.

He also didn't say a word about them being cheap, any history, or any preexisting narrative. You and others may have that narrative but don't insert it into what he said.

Didn't Zach tweat that he was sad that he had to go to another organization to get what he deserves. To me that means he said Bulls were cheap IMO, although English is my third language and correct me if I am wrong. It was before the Bulls matched iirc.

That is exactly what it meant. And don't worry, your English is better than most natural born US citizens.

Well when Zach starts talking politics, or contracts, while dribbling you can slam him .

Why, thanks. I'll keep that in mind, boss.

I have no f****** idea where you're coming from with this. I tried to be respectful. I also don't know why all of my comments are appearing in your post in blue. They weren't posted that way so I don't know if that is some smart-ass way of you trying to make a point or if we have a complete misunderstanding because somehow you thought I typed my comments and blue. You let me know which it is and we can proceed from there.

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[fenominon]

This may have been mentioned already but I think the Kings did the Bulls a favor in more ways than one.

First off, I do think that is a lot of money for a largely unproven player but all he has to do, at a minimum, is repeat what he did his last year in Minnesota for this deal to be worth it. If he adds defense or improves this deal is a steal and is a contract that will be cap friendly and able to be traded.

Now, the role that the Kings played that was favorable to the Bulls is that they offered a ballpark amount that the Bulls were already willing to offer and the most important part is that they added the injury protection. If the Bulls would have tried to put that into the contract Lavine would have taken the QO and played out the season and we have Butler situation all over again. However, When the Kings made the ONLY offer to Zach and it was ballpark money AND the injury protection was in it Lavine signed on the dotted line and then the Bulls were spared all of the hard feelings. Garpax could say well, we just matched what THEY offered and this was the deal, we love Zach....

The Kings did us a solid in that regard. If that injury protection wasn't there I would be much more upset about this deal. I can live with it. Especially since we are not getting big name free agents over the next couple of years so we better swing for the fences with our own guys.

[johnnyvann840]

Well for that matter, stop making the assumption that he was more valued by another organization. For all we know, the Kings threw a high, but not crazy high offer out there hoping the Bulls would not want to lose him for nothing....and we bit.
Using your own numbers..a lot of people would be much happier at $14M-$16M. The lower the better because it is more cap space next year (which is my big concern).
And did you just say paid their worth? WTF?! Lavine is being paid on potential, because his body of work is not worth his new contract. Even with that, if there were no salary cap, I would not care if it was 4/60, 4/80, or 4/100. But since there IS a salary cap, the numbers matter.

I wish people would stop with the narrative that that Sacramento just threw a number out there to try and get the Bulls to pay a couple million dollars more. That's a pretty ridiculous take.

No team is going to risk putting 20 million dollars a year on the line just to bid up another team betting on that team matching the offer. The Kings wanted Zach, and the comments after the fact indicate that even more.

Jesus. Here you go again. Look Strat, you're a great poster but you really need to stop telling people what to think and say. Have an opinion. Have a strong one even, with conviction. But stop telling others what they should say and how they should interpret something because that is how YOU may interpret it.

Fact is, Lavine DID go to another team, regardless of what his comments were after the fact..

In fact, his comments after the fact were that "he had to go to another team to get what he was worth"... his later comments were backpedaling saying that "it was emotions coming out" and that it's "all in the past, now". "He's happy, he knew what he was worth and blah blah blah"..

[Stratmaster]

Well for that matter, stop making the assumption that he was more valued by another organization. For all we know, the Kings threw a high, but not crazy high offer out there hoping the Bulls would not want to lose him for nothing....and we bit.
Using your own numbers..a lot of people would be much happier at $14M-$16M. The lower the better because it is more cap space next year (which is my big concern).
And did you just say paid their worth? WTF?! Lavine is being paid on potential, because his body of work is not worth his new contract. Even with that, if there were no salary cap, I would not care if it was 4/60, 4/80, or 4/100. But since there IS a salary cap, the numbers matter.

I wish people would stop with the narrative that that Sacramento just threw a number out there to try and get the Bulls to pay a couple million dollars more. That's a pretty ridiculous take.

No team is going to risk putting 20 million dollars a year on the line just to bid up another team betting on that team matching the offer. The Kings wanted Zach, and the comments after the fact indicate that even more.

Jesus. Here you go again. Look Strat, you're a great poster but you really need to stop telling people what to think and say. Have an opinion. Have a strong one even, with conviction. But stop telling others what they should say and how they should interpret something because that is how YOU may interpret it.

Fact is, Lavine DID go to another team, regardless of what his comments were after the fact..

In fact, his comments after the fact were that "he had to go to another team to get what he was worth"... his later comments were backpedaling saying that "it was emotions coming out" and that it's "all in the past, now". "He's happy, he knew what he was worth and blah blah blah"..

We are all giving our opinion here (as you tell me how I should express mine) . I thought that was a given. If you think that I'm trying to tell people what to do, especially you, that is certainly not my intent. Personally, seems like you're being a little overly sensitive to a post on a sports message board. But again, that is just my opinion. I'll start making it a point to put that disclaimer at the end of everything I say, okay?