The Kevin Love Thread: Update PG. 67, 78

[GimmeDat]

Love makes more sense in the long term, but I'm emotionally bitter sweet about a potential Love signing.

a) I think Melo's skill-set is of better value to this team, and I think he's a much better defender than Love

b) I'm still clinging on to the hope that we can somehow keep Taj and still get another star. While the chances are slim when it comes to Melo, the chances are nilch when it comes to Love. And I would want him starting, not backing Love up, anyway.

c) I'm slightly nervous Love is an empty stats guy, to a degree. More of a 2nd option on a contender as opposed to a 1A/1B.

[GimmeDat]

Now I'm calling BS, but take this for what you will -

From the Chicago Bulls Reddit page...

http://www.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/co ... liar_with/

This Bulls "offer" to Minnesota is completely made up (as some of you know already). Bulls aren't too high on Love because of his contract and really both sides haven't talked to each other at all. I will say that i know for a fact that the Bulls have called regarding Love but the convo really didn't go anywhere. This happened about a week ago or so.
Oh ya be prepared for a BIG trade on draft night. Its not 100% but it will sure be the headline if these wheels stayed greased till then.
Regards, Someone who hopefully doesn't lose his job soon

I can't really see how this isn't made up but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. This will be a long few weeks.

Also, he said "I'm familiar with people within the FO" yet says 'I hope I don't lose my job". Thought I'd post it but yeah, I'm not convinced either but what he said or the credibility of who he says he is.

[wonderboy2]

Now I'm calling BS, but take this for what you will -

From the Chicago Bulls Reddit page...

http://www.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/co ... liar_with/

This Bulls "offer" to Minnesota is completely made up (as some of you know already). Bulls aren't too high on Love because of his contract and really both sides haven't talked to each other at all. I will say that i know for a fact that the Bulls have called regarding Love but the convo really didn't go anywhere. This happened about a week ago or so.
Oh ya be prepared for a BIG trade on draft night. Its not 100% but it will sure be the headline if these wheels stayed greased till then.
Regards, Someone who hopefully doesn't lose his job soon

I can't really see how this isn't made up but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. This will be a long few weeks.

Also, he said "I'm familiar with people within the FO" yet says 'I hope I don't lose my job". Thought I'd post it but yeah, I'm not convinced either but what he said or the credibility of who he says he is.

Is he talking about the bulls making a big trade or someone other team in general making a big trade on draft night?

[GimmeDat]

Now I'm calling BS, but take this for what you will -

From the Chicago Bulls Reddit page...

http://www.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/co ... liar_with/

This Bulls "offer" to Minnesota is completely made up (as some of you know already). Bulls aren't too high on Love because of his contract and really both sides haven't talked to each other at all. I will say that i know for a fact that the Bulls have called regarding Love but the convo really didn't go anywhere. This happened about a week ago or so.
Oh ya be prepared for a BIG trade on draft night. Its not 100% but it will sure be the headline if these wheels stayed greased till then.
Regards, Someone who hopefully doesn't lose his job soon

I can't really see how this isn't made up but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. This will be a long few weeks.

Also, he said "I'm familiar with people within the FO" yet says 'I hope I don't lose my job". Thought I'd post it but yeah, I'm not convinced either but what he said or the credibility of who he says he is.

Is he talking about the bulls making a big trade or someone other team in general making a big trade on draft night?

Bulls by the sounds of it.

[mysticbb]

a) I think Melo's skill-set is of better value to this team, and I think he's a much better defender than Love

b) I'm still clinging on to the hope that we can somehow keep Taj and still get another star. While the chances are slim when it comes to Melo, the chances are nilch when it comes to Love. And I would want him starting, not backing Love up, anyway.

c) I'm slightly nervous Love is an empty stats guy, to a degree. More of a 2nd option on a contender as opposed to a 1A/1B.

a) Love can create for himself and is better at creating for others than Anthony. Love's skillset is perfect, because he can stretch out the floor offensively, setting effective screens to help out perimeter players as well as being a post-up guy the Bulls don't have, while being able to hold his on the defensive end in the interior as well as getting those rebounds (which he learnt to not steal from his teammates too much, while making the 2nd highest positive impact on the DRB% behind Nene in the league). You can plug Love into a Boozer role and get immediately better. Love is also the better passer and has a better courtvision; when double-teamed he can easily pass it to the right guy. Anthony has trouble with that.
Anthony's advantage over Love comes in Iso plays, which are in generell less efficient. Love is better as an off-ball player, being able to get into those shooting positions as well as converting such opportunities. Also, Love is the better player in transition.
On the defensive end, Love has learnt to work within defensive schemes, staying with his man rather than preparing for the potential defensive board. The latter was a seen weakness in his game before the last season, but he seems to have overcome that urge to leave the position for the rebound. 1on1 Anthony is better in specific situations, but Love is the guy performing better in terms of off-ball defense, staying with his man which can be trouble for Anthony who tends to lose focus, especially when he has trouble with his offensive game. Maybe that is a result of Anthony's migraine condition; it would be understandable, but it really doesn't help. Well, the Bulls as a franchise have experience with that; Pippen had the same issue, which was seen in his less consistency than other players.

b) I think the Bulls can field an offer to the Timberwolves in which they can keep Gibson. Although the Timberwolves seem to be set on rather trying to compete (whether with or without Love), I can see that the Bulls can offer the right assets without having Gibson&Butler included in the deal. The Timberwolves for example could use their own #13, the #16&#19 as well as the future Kings' pick to trade up in the current draft. Instead of having 4 picks, they could very well end up with two, the #8 and the #9 pick seems to be the most realistic options here. They could then use one of those picks for another international talent: Dario Saric. Despite some weird rumors, Saric is basically set to come over to the NBA, if he can get the playing time. And the Timberwolves could really make that happen. They could end up with Mirotic and Saric, adding more to their international talent pool they already have with Rubio and Pekovic. The advantage here: The international players have already experience playing against men and are in average better in their rookie season than non-international rookies. A realistic scenario: #19 plus Kings 2015 pick for #8, then pick Saric with #8, then Harris/Young/Stauskas/Anderson with #13 and then either of those players at #16. The Bulls could take Kevin Martin off their hands by utilizing the unguaranteed contracts of James, Brewer and Amundson as well as Snell after the July moratorium. Then use Boozer plus Mirotic plus the picks in order to trade for Kevin Love. Given that both trades would happen in different seasons, the Bulls could overall send up to $6.5m in cash combined ($3.2m for the 2014 season (trade on draft day), $3.3m for the 2015 season (trade after July moratorium)). And the Bulls have that kind of money available thanks to the Deng trade!
I think that package contains the best combination of talent and salary overall. I can only see the Cavaliers topping that by throwing the #1 overall pick at the Timberwolves. And that scenario has the Bulls keeping Butler and Gibson. They give up valuable future assets, but none of that is as valuable to the Bulls at this stage as it would be for the Timberwolves. And that is a key element for a trade, give something up which the other team values more than you do.
Obviously, the whole scenario has a questionmark, which comes down to Mirotic: Are the Timberwolves seeing Mirotic as good and talented as the average scout sees him? And is Mirotic willing to come over next season for a reasonable price (e.g. MLE-like money)? If both are answered with yes, the Bulls should be in the lead in terms of trade offers for Love.

The Bulls core then:

Rose/?
Martin/Dunleavy
Butler/Dunleavy
Love/Gibson
Noah/Gibson/Smith

Get a reasonable good backup PG (maybe bring back Hinrich for a reasonable price, trade for Nate Robinson?), get another wing player and add another FC player to that and the Bulls should have a championship caliber team even when Rose is not the 2011/12 version of him. And I want to see Love walking away from a 5yr max offer next summer, if the team looks like that.

c) No, Love is not an "empty stats" guy, he never was. He had slightly less impact than his boxscore numbers suggested, because, as I described before, he was leaving defensive position for better rebounding positions while therefore making the defense worse, but he has somewhat fixed that issue and became a better defensive player by that. His stats are suggesting a +5 player in general, his +/- based stats are suggesting the same. That is better than Anthony overall. Love is also younger, will have the lower max salary. Timberwolves didn't make the playoffs, because: they played in the West against in average better teams and had some bad luck with the opponents shooting way better than expected in close-game situations. Put that team in the East and they are playing for the 3rd seed. That team also had trouble with the bench play, losing games basically because the bench players messed up big-time and that erased the created lead by the starting formation (their S5 with Rubio-Martin-Brewer-Love-Pekovic was the 2nd best starting lineup in the league with 800+ min played, behind the Warriors Curry-Thompson-Iguodala-Lee-Bogut lineup). So, and Rose can play on a similar level as Rubio, Martin could be the same next season, Butler should be better than Brewer, Love could be better next seaon given his age suggesting he is still on the raise, and Noah is better than Pekovic. And then the Bulls have a big advantage on the bench with Dunleavy and Gibson being better than anything the Timberwolves had last season. There is really nothing to worry about, as long as the Bulls are able to get Love by just giving up future assets instead of Butler+Gibson (btw, I think either of those two players is worth at least a mid lottery pick!).

[BullsFTW]

Now I'm calling BS, but take this for what you will -

From the Chicago Bulls Reddit page...

http://www.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/co ... liar_with/

This Bulls "offer" to Minnesota is completely made up (as some of you know already). Bulls aren't too high on Love because of his contract and really both sides haven't talked to each other at all. I will say that i know for a fact that the Bulls have called regarding Love but the convo really didn't go anywhere. This happened about a week ago or so.
Oh ya be prepared for a BIG trade on draft night. Its not 100% but it will sure be the headline if these wheels stayed greased till then.
Regards, Someone who hopefully doesn't lose his job soon

I can't really see how this isn't made up but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. This will be a long few weeks.

Also, he said "I'm familiar with people within the FO" yet says 'I hope I don't lose my job". Thought I'd post it but yeah, I'm not convinced either but what he said or the credibility of who he says he is.

If true, this means the Bulls are really high on Mirotic. He's a bigger stretch four than Love, and if he pans out, he will be a decent player in the NBA.

Bulls best scenario would be to acquire Melo in a S&T, keep Taj, and bring Mirotic over.

CHI Gets: Melo
NYK Gets: TPE and 16th & 19th Picks (or Top 8 Pick if the Bulls move up)
PHI Gets: Boozer & SAC Pick

[mysticbb]

Now I'm calling BS, but take this for what you will

Really, if the Bulls are making it about "Love's contract", they are stupid as hell. They should find a reasonable answer to the question: Why would Love walk away from a 5yr max offer next summer? And Love on that contract would be a bargain, locking him up for his prime to a max salary which is far lower than that of an 30yr old Anthony. Getting Love from 26 to 31 > Anthony from 30 to 34, alone, then we take the contract into account, where a team could get Love for $110m over 6 years vs. Anthony's $96m for 4 years. For the next 4 seasons the Bulls would have Love for in average $6.7m per season less than Anthony. That means, you can get Love plus an MLE-like guy instead of Anthony and still pay less, which makes the whole thing a no-brainer just based on the salary alone. Then we add age and performance level and I seriously shake my head, if the Bulls are concerned about "Love's contract situation". Seriously, if you are not confident that you can get Love and then fill a competitive team in order to have Love accept a new 5yr contract offer from your team, get out of that job, please!

[GimmeDat]

a) I think Melo's skill-set is of better value to this team, and I think he's a much better defender than Love

b) I'm still clinging on to the hope that we can somehow keep Taj and still get another star. While the chances are slim when it comes to Melo, the chances are nilch when it comes to Love. And I would want him starting, not backing Love up, anyway.

c) I'm slightly nervous Love is an empty stats guy, to a degree. More of a 2nd option on a contender as opposed to a 1A/1B.

a) Love can create for himself and is better at creating for others than Anthony. Love's skillset is perfect, because he can stretch out the floor offensively, setting effective screens to help out perimeter players as well as being a post-up guy the Bulls don't have, while being able to hold his on the defensive end in the interior as well as getting those rebounds (which he learnt to not steal from his teammates too much, while making the 2nd highest positive impact on the DRB% behind Nene in the league). You can plug Love into a Boozer role and get immediately better. Love is also the better passer and has a better courtvision; when double-teamed he can easily pass it to the right guy. Anthony has trouble with that.
Anthony's advantage over Love comes in Iso plays, which are in generell less efficient. Love is better as an off-ball player, being able to get into those shooting positions as well as converting such opportunities. Also, Love is the better player in transition.
On the defensive end, Love has learnt to work within defensive schemes, staying with his man rather than preparing for the potential defensive board. The latter was a seen weakness in his game before the last season, but he seems to have overcome that urge to leave the position for the rebound. 1on1 Anthony is better in specific situations, but Love is the guy performing better in terms of off-ball defense, staying with his man which can be trouble for Anthony who tends to lose focus, especially when he has trouble with his offensive game. Maybe that is a result of Anthony's migraine condition; it would be understandable, but it really doesn't help. Well, the Bulls as a franchise have experience with that; Pippen had the same issue, which was seen in his less consistency than other players.

b) I think the Bulls can field an offer to the Timberwolves in which they can keep Gibson. Although the Timberwolves seem to be set on rather trying to compete (whether with or without Love), I can see that the Bulls can offer the right assets without having Gibson&Butler included in the deal. The Timberwolves for example could use their own #13, the #16&#19 as well as the future Kings' pick to trade up in the current draft. Instead of having 4 picks, they could very well end up with two, the #8 and the #9 pick seems to be the most realistic options here. They could then use one of those picks for another international talent: Dario Saric. Despite some weird rumors, Saric is basically set to come over to the NBA, if he can get the playing time. And the Timberwolves could really make that happen. They could end up with Mirotic and Saric, adding more to their international talent pool they already have with Rubio and Pekovic. The advantage here: The international players have already experience playing against men and are in average better in their rookie season than non-international rookies. A realistic scenario: #19 plus Kings 2015 pick for #8, then pick Saric with #8, then Harris/Young/Stauskas/Anderson with #13 and then either of those players at #16. The Bulls could take Kevin Martin off their hands by utilizing the unguaranteed contracts of James, Brewer and Amundson as well as Snell after the July moratorium. Then use Boozer plus Mirotic plus the picks in order to trade for Kevin Love. Given that both trades would happen in different seasons, the Bulls could overall send up to $6.5m in cash combined ($3.2m for the 2014 season (trade on draft day), $3.3m for the 2015 season (trade after July moratorium)). And the Bulls have that kind of money available thanks to the Deng trade!
I think that package contains the best combination of talent and salary overall. I can only see the Cavaliers topping that by throwing the #1 overall pick at the Timberwolves. And that scenario has the Bulls keeping Butler and Gibson. They give up valuable future assets, but none of that is as valuable to the Bulls at this stage as it would be for the Timberwolves. And that is a key element for a trade, give something up which the other team values more than you do.
Obviously, the whole scenario has a questionmark, which comes down to Mirotic: Are the Timberwolves seeing Mirotic as good and talented as the average scout sees him? And is Mirotic willing to come over next season for a reasonable price (e.g. MLE-like money)? If both are answered with yes, the Bulls should be in the lead in terms of trade offers for Love.

The Bulls core then:

Rose/?
Martin/Dunleavy
Butler/Dunleavy
Love/Gibson
Noah/Gibson/Smith

Get a reasonable good backup PG (maybe bring back Hinrich for a reasonable price, trade for Nate Robinson?), get another wing player and add another FC player to that and the Bulls should have a championship caliber team even when Rose is not the 2011/12 version of him. And I want to see Love walking away from a 5yr max offer next summer, if the team looks like that.

c) No, Love is not an "empty stats" guy, he never was. He had slightly less impact than his boxscore numbers suggested, because, as I described before, he was leaving defensive position for better rebounding positions while therefore making the defense worse, but he has somewhat fixed that issue and became a better defensive player by that. His stats are suggesting a +5 player in general, his +/- based stats are suggesting the same. That is better than Anthony overall. Love is also younger, will have the lower max salary. Timberwolves didn't make the playoffs, because: they played in the West against in average better teams and had some bad luck with the opponents shooting way better than expected in close-game situations. Put that team in the East and they are playing for the 3rd seed. That team also had trouble with the bench play, losing games basically because the bench players messed up big-time and that erased the created lead by the starting formation (their S5 with Rubio-Martin-Brewer-Love-Pekovic was the 2nd best starting lineup in the league with 800+ min played, behind the Warriors Curry-Thompson-Iguodala-Lee-Bogut lineup). So, and Rose can play on a similar level as Rubio, Martin could be the same next season, Butler should be better than Brewer, Love could be better next seaon given his age suggesting he is still on the raise, and Noah is better than Pekovic. And then the Bulls have a big advantage on the bench with Dunleavy and Gibson being better than anything the Timberwolves had last season. There is really nothing to worry about, as long as the Bulls are able to get Love by just giving up future assets instead of Butler+Gibson (btw, I think either of those two players is worth at least a mid lottery pick!).

I appreciate that Love has his strength's over Melo, but there's lot of things that needed to be taken into account. I still maintain that Love is a below average defender while Melo is a slightly above average defender. Love is a massive plus on the boards, whether he compromises defensive position for them or not, but with Noah manning the middle it wouldn't really have that much of a positive impact.

We need a go-to guy offensively, and I think Melo's better in that context as a scorer. A lot of Love's off-ball, post up and offensive board points are redundant when compared to Taj and Mirotic. I'm not saying Love's not a massive improvement in that regard, but you need to consider the overall team around them. With Melo at SF, you'd still have hopefully 1 of Taj/Mirotic left to play PF going forward - if you have Love, it's not like we have someone of their calibre to play on the other wing.

Additionally, keeping Taj would have a lot more value in the acquistion of Melo than Love. Taj would not play as much nor have as many opportunities when he is on if Love was here, so his value deteriorates in that regard.

And Love hasn't had nearly the team success as Melo, granted Melo's been in the league for a lot longer. It just feels like Love would fall back into a 20-21ppg sort of player on this team assuming Rose is playing and healthy, whereas I could see Melo still scoring 24-25ppg on that same squad. I just meant Love's skillset doesn't really lineup with his raw numbers, which scares me a little in terms him replicating similar production in a different situation.

There's pro's and con's to both, and I'm still tossing it up myself, but I think they're justifiable concerns on the Love front.

[GimmeDat]

Now I'm calling BS, but take this for what you will

Really, if the Bulls are making it about "Love's contract", they are stupid as hell. They should find a reasonable answer to the question: Why would Love walk away from a 5yr max offer next summer? And Love on that contract would be a bargain, locking him up for his prime to a max salary which is far lower than that of an 30yr old Anthony. Getting Love from 26 to 31 > Anthony from 30 to 34, alone, then we take the contract into account, where a team could get Love for $110m over 6 years vs. Anthony's $96m for 4 years. For the next 4 seasons the Bulls would have Love for in average $6.7m per season less than Anthony. That means, you can get Love plus an MLE-like guy instead of Anthony and still pay less, which makes the whole thing a no-brainer just based on the salary alone. Then we add age and performance level and I seriously shake my head, if the Bulls are concerned about "Love's contract situation". Seriously, if you are not confident that you can get Love and then fill a competitive team in order to have Love accept a new 5yr contract offer from your team, get out of that job, please!

And yeah, as I said, I think this is fake, so I hope no one finds an excuse to bag GarPax for something that isn't true.

[mysticbb]

I appreciate that Love has his strength's over Melo, but there's lot of things that needed to be taken into account. I still maintain that Love is a below average defender while Melo is a slightly above average defender. Love is a massive plus on the boards, whether he compromises defensive position for them or not, but with Noah manning the middle it wouldn't really have that much of a positive impact.

Synergy Stats and +/- based stats both have Love as better than Anthony on the defensive end.

We need a go-to guy offensively, and I think Melo's better in that context as a scorer.

He isn't. Anthony is only better in isos, which a team should avoid anyway. Love is better at creating for himself and clearly better at creating for others.

A lot of Love's off-ball, post up and offensive board points are redundant when compared to Taj and Mirotic.

Makes no sense at all to argue that way. It is about what a player brings on the court at the time, not about what his backup brings on the court in a different time period. Love is simply the better overall player than Anthony, while they essentially play the same role (Anthony played PF for the Knicks for the most part, because that's where he makes the biggest impact offensively!). Making Anthony a SF will basically nullify any impact coming from his perimeter game, because in the current defensive settings in the NBA, the SF is expected to play from that position and gets defended accordingly. The effect of a player like Anthony on PF is where the real advantage comes from, because that forces the teams to sacrifice help defense for man defense. That is a key part of the effect of a "stretch 4"! You can see a similar thing for Durant, where he doesn't make it a tiny little bit easier for his teammates when playing SF, while having a massive positive impact when he plays PF (just that he can't do that constantly, because he is too weak defensively in order to not lose too much energy by that on the defensive end).
Love gives a varity of options offensively; you can use him as an offensive hub, making plays for others while really improving the offensive efficiency by that (unlike Noah), you can let him post-up and score, you can let him run in transition (he will get you the defensive rebound, make the proper pass and then being the first guy underneath the opponents basket to receive the ball again), you can run high p&r/p with him in any facet. With Noah, you can even run those staggered p&r actions, really, that guy gives far more options than Gibson does offensively. And Mirotic isn't proven, which is why it makes sense for the Bulls to trade him now for a proven guy. Surely, he has the potential to be very good, which again is the point for the Timberwolves to accept him instead of Gibson&Butler. If he would be a sure-fire thing, the Bulls should just bring him over and forget to use any kind of assets for Love or Anthony anyway. It is a risk&reward move for the Bulls, but that makes it interesting for the Timberwolves to even engage in such scenario.

I'm not saying Love's not a massive improvement in that regard, but you need to consider the overall team around them. With Melo at SF, you'd still have hopefully 1 of Taj/Mirotic left to play PF going forward - if you have Love, it's not like we have someone of their calibre to play on the other wing.

Anthony's higher salary makes it LESS likely to keep other more expansive players. That is one of the major points I made. Really, for me the whole Love > Anthony is essentially based on the fact that the Bulls will have more flexibility with Love instead of Anthony. And, the scenario described has Gibson staying with the Bulls. That is a key element for that. Use future assets only in order to ADD Love to the current core. That is possible, if Mirotic is willing to play for the Timberwolves next season already for a reasonable price.

Additionally, keeping Taj would have a lot more value in the acquistion of Melo than Love. Taj would not play as much nor have as many opportunities when he is on if Love was here, so his value deteriorates in that regard.

No, it doesn't. Gibson as the 3rd big could be used to specifically in matchup situations to get the most out of him per poss. And he would serve as the backup for C/PF just like we saw him doing that for the Wizards series. The minutes are there. And if Noah should have another minor injury, I much rather have Gibson being able to play that C spot than anything else the Bulls could acquire.
Also, as I pointed out, Anthony makes the most impact when playing PF, thus, the same stuff you are concerned about with Love would apply with Anthony as well.

And Love hasn't had nearly the team success as Melo, granted Melo's been in the league for a lot longer.

The team success had much more to do with Anthony having in average better teammates around him than Love had. Really, the question is how much impact those guys made, and until now Love had in average a bigger positive impact as well as showing to bigger positive impact at peak-level.

It just feels like Love would fall back into a 20-21ppg sort of player on this team assuming Rose is playing and healthy, whereas I could see Melo still scoring 24-25ppg on that same squad.

And? Love is distributing the ball better, leading to better halfcourt offensive opportunities. What is bad about it? It is not about how many points an individual player scores, but how the team performes with that said player on the court. That is the key issue. Also, the Bulls are playing rather slow, which makes the amount of shots for each player less often available. Overall, Love made more with less touches per poss than Anthony, which is a key factor for efficient offense.

I just meant Love's skillset doesn't really lineup with his raw numbers, which scares me a little in terms him replicating similar production in a different situation.

I don't understand that point. Love is incredible skilled, that's where he has the main advantage; that's why he is better than other PF in the league. So, not quite sure what you want to say, but I see the "production" being very well in-line with his skillset.

There's pro's and con's to both, and I'm still tossing it up myself, but I think they're justifiable concerns on the Love front.

To be honest, I only see pro's for Love based on facts, I understand that people see "pro's" in something like "iso scoring", but I don't see it, when the alternative is Love being not that far off in terms of creating his own shot, while being more efficient in average anyway. And Love gives a better overall ball- and player movement while giving easier opportunities to create the necessary spacing for perimeter players to attack the basket.

There are always concerns with every player. The question at hand would be: which player produces the better overall situation? Love or Anthony? And if the Bulls can acquire Love without giving up Gibson&Butler, that is an easy choice! If Gibson&Butler have to be given up while for Anthony both can be kept, that is a different situation, and I'm thinking Anthony+Gibson+Butler is better than Love+?. But the issue is: Will the Bulls be able to keep Gibson+Butler around, when Anthony's contract is asking for $6.7m in average more than Love's would?

[mysticbb]

And yeah, as I said, I think this is fake, so I hope no one finds an excuse to bag GarPax for something that isn't true.

Yeah, I agree with that. I can't see them making it just about the contract situation for Love. If Love does not end up on the Bulls, I think that is more based on 1. Another team made a better overall offer from the Timberwolves POV. 2. The Timberwolves asked for the kitchen sink or rather keep Love for themselves. 3. Anthony's camp indicated that he would sign below max with the Bulls, while a S&T package based on Boozer and some smaller assets (1 talent from those #16 or #19 pick plus Kings pick) is enough. No need to assume that the Bulls FO would be acting stupidly; there are doing a pretty good job when we assume that the ownership has a bigger eye on the profite margin than other owners have (and I assume that this is the case).

[blumeany]

Random reddit post ending in 'hope I don't lose my job' = fake. However, their blind guess might be partially true. Who knows.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

[Ben]

To me, this was the best reaction of the various skeptical Reddit reactions:

[fleet]

Random reddit post ending in 'hope I don't lose my job' = fake. However, their blind guess might be partially true. Who knows.

I like that. Cops can smell a liar lying.

[johnnyvann840]

My take is this. mysticbb has given us interesting analysis on how Love is better than Melo. I agree to some extent.. However, I think the fallacy is the assumption that you have to have every position on the team be a 3 pt shooter other than your 5.

My take is this.. the Bulls are better with

Rose
Butler
Melo
Taj
Noah

than with...

Rose
Butler or MLE target (?)
MDJ (?) IDK
Love
Noah

The fact is that Melo might be a better 3 pt shooter (better last season, at least by a significant 3FG%-- both have high volume) and probably a better post player than Love... stronger, able to bully ball his way to the rim.

I just think Melo/Taj at the 3/4 is better than MDJ/or unknown/ Love

The fact that the Bulls stayed out of the tax last season means I expect them to be willing to go a little more into the tax the next few years to make a true run. Nothing too frivolous, but enough to keep Taj and still get Melo. I guess in a nutshell.. the difference between Melo and unknown MLE/MDJ is a lot more than the difference between Taj and Love When you look at both ends of the floor

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I appreciate that Love has his strength's over Melo, but there's lot of things that needed to be taken into account. I still maintain that Love is a below average defender while Melo is a slightly above average defender. Love is a massive plus on the boards, whether he compromises defensive position for them or not, but with Noah manning the middle it wouldn't really have that much of a positive impact.

Synergy Stats and +/- based stats both have Love as better than Anthony on the defensive end.

This is a good example of why those stats are flawed.

[johnnyvann840]

The Bulls core then:

Rose/?
Martin/Dunleavy
Butler/Dunleavy
Love/Gibson
Noah/Gibson/Smith

Now, if this were possible to get done... I would be all for it. Just don't see us getting Love and Martin. .. and still keeping Taj and Jimmy and MDJ . But, yeah. This team is a contender.

[Leto]

I agree that Melo is a better fit for this team with Taj, Jimmy, Jo and Rose. I don't mind getting Love, but I'm not sending them all our assets to do so. They seem to want to improve their team while simultaneously get a truck load of draft picks for a guy who's telling them he's leaving. Forget it. Further, he's not a good defender and I do agree he seems to be an empty stats guy. You give up the farm for him, you will regret it. My offer for Love would be Booz, Mirotic, and our two picks. That's it. If they don't like it, tell them to go to Boston. Their leverage is limited, at best.

[bledredwine]

I think that one of the biggest problems is that Kevin Love sucks against Miami- chokes 1 out of every 3 games and is damned near a wash with Bosh. Meanwhile, Carmelo is a damned near wash with Bron, Bron being way better on both ends. Yeah Ill take the latter... Easy decision. IMO Love is as much of a 1st option as Harden is with similar defense.

[mysticbb]

This is a good example of why those stats are flawed.

What makes you say that? What is more likely, that you haven't seen all of the minutes of both with the specific focus on their defensive action (especially off the ball) or that those stats are actually portraying those two players in a pretty good fashion based on all minutes they played?

Love's defensive issue came mostly from giving up defensive position for defensive rebounds, which isn't a smart thing to do for the overall team defense; Anthony's issue is that he loses focus in off-ball situation defensively. The latter is ususally a big issue for the overall team defense, because it messes up the rotation and help defense, while usually such thing is not as easily addressable to a specific player just by watching the game normally. Most times another player takes the blame by the fans for such thing, not the player causing the issue in the first place.
What I find interesting from the results from last season: Love+Pekovic on the court played slightly better defensively than Anthony+Chandler, adjusted for teammates and opponents. I guess that is something to think about ...