Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[kyrv]

You are correct. I think he does not understand the attachment fans of that era have to Jordan. There are many people who will likely never jump ship, even if/when the next big thing is a Bull.

Yeah, except I didn't say Bulls fans would pick LeBron over Jordan, so thank you for your contributions.

My pleasure.

Any debate of Jordan v Billy-Bob will mean Jordan gets raised and Billy-Bob gets lowered. And in his case Lebron has provided a ton of pants peeing and cramps taking his talents.

[GetBuLLish]

In a reasonable hypothetical where 29 other teams still exist, have opportunity to acquire and sign other top players, draft and develop talent, etc. In YOUR scenario, that hypothetical doesn't assume that because it assumes that top players WILLINGLY play for less than their market value to skew the rest of the league.

Golden State and Miami before them were built through a combination of Free Agency and Trades and Drafting in which players were signed but no one truly circumvented the league to do it; LeBron and Bosh and Wade in Miami all made within a few hundred thousand of what they'd make otherwise. The Warriors were able to sign Durant due to two huge events: Curry's extension + prodigious rise and the salary cap rising. There is obviously luck involved in that but they played within the confines of the league and didn't truly manipulate the league to create their rosters. Your scenario is ONLY allowed if players basically manipulate their value and contracts. So yes, your hypothetical isn't comparable.

You and Mark were adamant that if players colluded without breaking any rules to play with one another, no fan should have an issue with it. Now you've thrown in a arbitrary caveat that your analysis changes if the players take significantly less money to play with each other.

Ok, well let's say that there's no salary cap. And the NYK sign all of those all-stars that I listed and each of them get paid big bucks (no one takes a pay cut). Then surely you'd be ok with that, right? Then once that all-star laden team won the championship, you'd view that equally to all previous championships, correct?

[DanTown8587]

In a reasonable hypothetical where 29 other teams still exist, have opportunity to acquire and sign other top players, draft and develop talent, etc. In YOUR scenario, that hypothetical doesn't assume that because it assumes that top players WILLINGLY play for less than their market value to skew the rest of the league.

Golden State and Miami before them were built through a combination of Free Agency and Trades and Drafting in which players were signed but no one truly circumvented the league to do it; LeBron and Bosh and Wade in Miami all made within a few hundred thousand of what they'd make otherwise. The Warriors were able to sign Durant due to two huge events: Curry's extension + prodigious rise and the salary cap rising. There is obviously luck involved in that but they played within the confines of the league and didn't truly manipulate the league to create their rosters. Your scenario is ONLY allowed if players basically manipulate their value and contracts. So yes, your hypothetical isn't comparable.

You and Mark were adamant that if players colluded without breaking any rules to play with one another, no fan should have an issue with it. Now you've thrown in a arbitrary caveat that your analysis changes if the players take significantly less money to play with each other.

Ok, well let's say that there's no salary cap. And the NYK sign all of those all-stars that I listed and each of them get paid big bucks (no one takes a pay cut). Then surely you'd be ok with that, right? Then once that all-star laden team won the championship, you'd view that equally to all previous championships, correct?

"Completely arbitrary" or "the basis of my argument". Due to the current cap structure, max players basically get paid no matter what team they are on. If James plays on Cleveland or he had gone to Golden State or he had gone to Brooklyn, he makes the same money. Do I think James (or any other top five player) should be dissuaded from going to a certain team that offers them a chance to win? No. That's on the league and 29 other teams to offer him that chance to win.

I have zero problems if a player takes his market value and goes to any team; it's not on a James or Durant or Curry to balance talent in the league. If players take far less than market value to create teams that otherwise would be impossible, then I'll start to blame players.

Essentially, I don't think Durant goes in to FA last summer and should be held to a standard that says he can't go to Golden State or Cleveland. Or in LeBrons case, if a team has both quality players and his friends on it that he can't go there. I mean LeBron and just Wade is probably a super team.

[Ice Man]

Was anybody on this board expected Boston to win this series? I was not, and I don't recall anybody else writing that either. The general consensus seemed to be that the Wizards were really really good. But you know, while they did take care of business at home, they didn't look any better than us when they were in Boston, and that was 4 games -- not a fluke.

Put 'em in the Toronto camp, I guess. Some good players, solid team, but lacking what it takes for the next level. Which points out how damn hard it is to get to that level. The Wiz have a #1 pick, a #3 pick, and a #3 pick. Now that's tanking at the highest level. And its #1 pick was a winner, and its #3 pick (Beal) was a winner, and its other #3 pick (Porter) was not a home run but better than some #3s.

Man it's hard to contend. That is true of contending by signing FAs, or hitting big in trades, or tanking and collecting draft picks. Every path is bad.

[ATRAIN53]

Man you put Durant on that Wizards team and this would be an awesome CLE vs WAS ECF!

and I think he knew that but realized he may not get past LeBron so this is why he opted to go to Frisco.
he didn't even give them an interview last year-

https://theringer.com/kevin-durant-spurning-washington-wizards-free-agency-78dfc69e4e56'

But what a series and rivalry that could have ignited in the east. If he could have convinced Pierce to stay along with Beal and Wall that would have been a pretty good team. Just getting the to the ECF would have been HUGE and in 1 year KD would have merited a statue and legend status in his hometown. Every story and angle would have been about his homecoming. KD Wizrads jerseys would be FLYING off the shelves.

Instead he's just a ring chaser out there in San Fran.

[Axxo]

Win a game 7 in the playoffs the night before maybe winning the draft lottery #insanelyjealous

Yep, in that case Bos would've had a good year. They are playing in the ECF and rebuilding with high ceiling players at the same time....

[Ice Man]

Man you put Durant on that Wizards team and this would be an awesome CLE vs WAS ECF!

Yep and the Wiz could have signed him too, instead of blowing $16 million on Do Nothing Mahinmi.

[Mech Engineer]

Was anybody on this board expected Boston to win this series? I was not, and I don't recall anybody else writing that either. The general consensus seemed to be that the Wizards were really really good. But you know, while they did take care of business at home, they didn't look any better than us when they were in Boston, and that was 4 games -- not a fluke.

Put 'em in the Toronto camp, I guess. Some good players, solid team, but lacking what it takes for the next level. Which points out how damn hard it is to get to that level. The Wiz have a #1 pick, a #3 pick, and a #3 pick. Now that's tanking at the highest level. And its #1 pick was a winner, and its #3 pick (Beal) was a winner, and its other #3 pick (Porter) was not a home run but better than some #3s.

Man it's hard to contend. That is true of contending by signing FAs, or hitting big in trades, or tanking and collecting draft picks. Every path is bad.

I didn't pick Boston but I never had confidence in Washington. Their best player is not a good 3 pt shooter and that translates to less wins. I know Wall made 37% on 3s and had that game winning 3. But, look at his stats in detail. He had 2 games when he shot over his normal numbers and were outliers. Other than those 2 games, he had (20%, 30%, 20%, 33%, 12.5%). Your best player who has the ball a lot cannot shoot so badly on 3s in today's league and win.

IMO, your point guard cannot be the best player on the team if he is also not a consistent 3 pt shooter.

[Ice Man]

I didn't pick Boston but I never had confidence in Washington. Their best player is not a good 3 pt shooter and that translates to less wins.

There was some buzz on this board after Round 1 about how Wall was the East's 2nd best player. Wall is damn good but I think this series demonstrated why he is not #2. His TS% was 49%, meaning that you can toss most of those 25 ppg out the window. Every other Wizard scored more efficiently than Wall, most a lot more efficiently. When Wall shot he was hurting his team.

Then there was the indifferent defense. That hurts too.

Now, the guy is a dynamo, runs, rebounds, great passer, there's a lot going for him. But not being able to score efficiently when it counts and not being able to hold Boston down from torching him and his team while on Boston's court, I think that disqualifies him from consideration as the East's second best player.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Was anybody on this board expected Boston to win this series? I was not, and I don't recall anybody else writing that either. The general consensus seemed to be that the Wizards were really really good. But you know, while they did take care of business at home, they didn't look any better than us when they were in Boston, and that was 4 games -- not a fluke.

Put 'em in the Toronto camp, I guess. Some good players, solid team, but lacking what it takes for the next level. Which points out how damn hard it is to get to that level. The Wiz have a #1 pick, a #3 pick, and a #3 pick. Now that's tanking at the highest level. And its #1 pick was a winner, and its #3 pick (Beal) was a winner, and its other #3 pick (Porter) was not a home run but better than some #3s.

Man it's hard to contend. That is true of contending by signing FAs, or hitting big in trades, or tanking and collecting draft picks. Every path is bad.

I think Boston's players were better than what they showed against the bulls, especially early in that series. I think that happens when guys don't have a ton of experience. Smart, Crowder, and Bradley I thought played better against the wizards.

I expect them to continue to get better and challenge Cleveland. I think Boston wins 2 games.

Side note, Wall was dreadful on defense in this series. Got lost and beat on so many cuts it was ridiculous.

[Mech Engineer]

Now, the guy is a dynamo, runs, rebounds, great passer, there's a lot going for him. But not being able to score efficiently when it counts and not being able to hold Boston down from torching him and his team while on Boston's court, I think that disqualifies him from consideration as the East's second best player.

This is the difference between elite stars and secondary players. You can rebound/pass and do all that. But, you cannot be the best player if you cannot score in different ways and when you need them and also do in bunches etc...

If your best trait is running the floor, rebounding, passing etc...you are a good PG but cannot be the best player. You need to score like Steph Curry or even IT or LeBron or Durant or Kawhi. Otherwise, you are an elite supporting player.

That said, he is being paid as much as Mahinmi for the next 2 years. Bradley Beal is the guy getting the big money. He was 30% on his 3s. They are not winning anything with him shooting like that.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Yeah I'm not sure where this "John Wall is the 2nd best player in the East" Giannis, Butler, PG13 >> Wall.

Wall Imo, is still the best PG in the East.

[Mech Engineer]

As Hubie says, elite talent shows up at 2nd round or later. 1st round playoff heroics should always be taken with a grain of salt. You have inexperienced, lucky, below 500 teams making playoffs.

Deng looked like a superstar in 2006 against the Heat in the 1st round and that Deng never showed up again.

And. wins against Atlanta is always tough to evaluate. They keep losing key players and never keep building/adding every year.

[SpinninHouse]

Kinda sucks that the NBA isn't even competitive. No one even has a shot in the east against Cleveland and no one has a shot in the west against Golden State. The excitement is totally gone. Every one has known since last off season which two teams would play in the Finals.

Yes its nice to watch two all time greats in Lebron and Curry play -- but the lack of competitiveness makes this Era of NBA basketball pretty awful.

[jc23]

this is the day and time that missing the playoffs would have been worth it. Lets see what happens with the heat.

I did enjoy seeing playoff rondo for two games and im sure garpax will use his injury as part of their war cry for this summer.

[AirP.]

Man you put Durant on that Wizards team and this would be an awesome CLE vs WAS ECF!

Instead he's just a ring chaser out there in San Fran.

Not so sure it's just about ring chasing because OKC had the plan in place to be a dominate team this season. The plan was basically this, first they trade Ibaka to free up the PF position and get a good SG which ends up being Olapido. Resign KD which then would have made OKC trade away Kanter and a whoever else to create space to sign Horford to replace Ibaka. OKC's starting 5 would have been Westbrook, Olapido, KD, Horford and Adams. I don't know but wouldn't be surprised if Sabonis or Payne were going to be packaged with higher contracts to create space for Horford. Once KD didn't sign in GS, Horford signed with Boston.

[Ice Man]

As Hubie says, elite talent shows up at 2nd round or later. 1st round playoff heroics should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Well, it depends. It's pretty meaningful if a guy does that against a top seed, a good team. It's a lot less so if it's done against the #8 seeds. I mean, how hard is it to beat on the Chicago Bulls?

[Mbrahv0528]

Yeah I'm not sure where this "John Wall is the 2nd best player in the East" Giannis, Butler, PG13 >> Wall.

Wall Imo, is still the best PG in the East.

There's only been I think, one or two prominent posters here trumpeting that nonsense. Every time I refuted the post that never responded. This puts that to rest though obviously.

Sent from my 2PS64 using RealGM mobile app

[Ice Man]

In fairness, it's difficult to say who the 2nd best player in the East currently is. On modern analytics, it's Jimmy Butler, which is the choice I would make. But he is hardly a lock. Decent arguments can be made for half a dozen other guys.

What's clear is that if Wall is the 2nd best player in the East, he is by no means clearly so. Nobody who argues for Wall should do so with any more certainty than I do for Butler.

[R3AL1TY]

Boston has to win all their home games again to win the ECF against the Lebrons. They also will need an unexpected guy to play big like Gerald Green in round 1.