Bears 12.0

[fleet]

I mean, what other NFL games did you watch?

What performances of these guys did you like better? Ward, Nix, Russell, Tua, Murray, Rattler, Maye, Lawrence, Young, Burrow, Flacco, Stroud, Darnold, Dak.

That’s 14 guys that don’t really have a case.

I get he wasn’t a top 5 guy, top 10 guy. But the hyperbole is really far off.

I read he had the 2nd highest PFF grade on the team. If true, there is a lot of ESPN first take level analysis here.

I watched Green Bay / Detroit and Jets / Steelers, but my view of average QB is not based on yesterday, it's based on my history of watching football rather than a comparison of what he did on a single day vs what his peers did on a single day.

It was based on what I think an average QB should have done with the opportunities presented to him on this day vs what he did with the opportunities presented to him on this day.

Again, if you disagree, feel free, I'm discussing what I saw and why I feel the way I felt. If you want to just quote PFF grades or QBR or some other stat, go ahead fair enough, but you're not actually disputing any of the comments I made and just quoting numbers that I would be highly skeptical of having any meaningful value whatsoever in week 1, and then passing along insults of "ESPN 1st take analysis".

So again this is what I saw:
1: Not getting the ball out quickly enough
2: Not making reads quickly enough
3: Not delivering accurate passes

He had some good plays for sure, but the overall problems struck me as very much the same as last year. People can have bad games, hope he plays better next game.

Sure. I thought Caleb looked elite in the first quarter and a half. 10 for 10 passing. None of your bullet points really applied here in my opinion. Everything was sharp, quick, and per the game plan. Announcers fawning, game plan was great. Over 4 quarters, he ends as a top 5 QB on the day.

I think in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, his eyes were in the backfield too much. Flores starting mixing blitz packages, throwing him and the line off. Lots of off balance throws leading to accuracy issues.

And then the last drive when he didn’t have time to overthink any of that, he was better.

Some of what you say certainly applies to multiple downs, and some of it doesn’t, leading to the average numbers I’m citing.

I think Ben will show him the plays that were way off, and it’ll be his job to try and extend that 1st quarter success through the entire game.

On those scripted play 10 for 10 completions, the unnecessary degree of difficulty was 10 on a scale of 1-10 as well. He makes a check-down look like a Parkour run.

[NZB2323]

I’d have to disagree with this sentiment in general. You’re referencing one penalty. We had TWELVE. Additionally, I never indicated that the defense was a problem. Just that there were other things that transpired in this game that didn’t have much to do with Caleb. Like the unnecessary risks, the burning of a timeout that we absolutely needed at the end and several special teams miscues. Had we won the game, it wouldn’t have been on Caleb and losing it wasn’t all on him either.

The bottom line is that the Bears played well enough to win this game and the points left on the table vs the final score indicates as much.

Sure, it’s a team game. It’s not 100% on Caleb, but he’s not blameless either. If he connects with receivers who are wide open, we win. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for a “generational talent” that we could have traded for a King’s ransom.

I agree with you 100%. Caleb isn’t blameless. I just think that this game falls under the “WE have to be better” category. Also, try not to get caught up in this “generational talent” nonsense. Caleb never called himself generational. That was the media know it alls and the fans that are that garbage up. In fact, the media is already trying to hype other college QBs as generational. Don’t believe all that hype.

I didn’t fall for the hype and wanted us to trade the 1st overall pick. That’s why I’m frustrated, all this talk of him being great, all the excuses for his rookie season, and we blow this big lead when he can’t hit open receivers.

I know the “mature” thing to do is have patience and see what happens, or to just not let a game bother me so much, but it’s hard not to feel frustrated.

[mack2354]

I was team trade the Caleb pick for a haul. I'm not here to say I told you so, and it's extremely too early even if I wanted to.

The positive takeaway from last night is that Caleb is improving. Last year, Caleb hunted the long passes upfield until pressure got to him, and he had to scramble/eat a sack. Last night, you can tell he was going through his progressions and then checking down quickly before pressure got to him.

The problem, as other people have mentioned, is that he isn't hitting those guys down the field. Im not sure if he wants guys to have a 5-yard bubble of open field around them, he can't see the field because of his height, he's terrified of interceptions or something else.

I refuse to believe that DJ Moore, Rome, Burden, Loveland, and company aren't getting open in Ben Johnsons scheme.

I don't know how long you give Caleb to get out of his own head and throw it downfield, but fans are tired of being told to have "patience." The Bagent screams will get louder, and the Poles criticism for drafting Williams will get more intense.

Sent from my SM-A146U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[MAQ]

That was a gut punch.

Ben Johnson:
So so night. He drew 1 major red flag from me with that challenge. That was bad. Reporters asked him about it...he says it was on him and he thought he saw knees up. I dunno who he's trying to protect with that answer. Either way, that's a huge huge let down for someone touted as being so flipping smart. Offensive scheme look like it had some bright spots. Offensive results didnt really show it though.

Defense:
Played better than I expected. Just fell apart at the end there. Had major issues stopping the run in the 2nd half...im curious how much of that was fatigue. Our offense didnt give them a chance to catch their breath in the 2nd half. Got to the qb.

Special teams:
That was bad. Get a freaking kicker already. 55 yarders are standard in the NFL at this point...but not here.

Caleb:
Sigh...Im off the idea that he's Pat Mahomes. Im off the idea that he's a generational qb. Im not even sure he's currently or will be the best qb from his draft. That said, I'll be patient. Hes really young and really talented. Hoping he can break these bad habits and start understanding pre-snap reads better than what he's shown to this point. There's still something there, I believe. But I'm fully let down by the fact that he ain't what he was sold to us as being.

[panthermark]

I am hoping he becomes "the guy" soon, and not turn out to be just "a guy". We already had "a guy", and the concern was if CW was really going to be "the guy" the franchise has been looking for after you took a hard look at HOW he played in college. There is still time for him to become "they guy", but when you see the bad throws and missed reads, it does not give you warm fuzzies. I don't want to hear that he needs a stud RB and a beefy O-line and deep WR core to perform. He is the #1 pick that should be elevating the team.
I don't want to wait 4 years for him to "start" to develop, only to demand a billion dollars for "OK" qb play.

[TheJordanRule]

I am hoping he becomes "the guy" soon, and not turn out to be just "a guy". We already had "a guy", and the concern was if CW was really going to be "the guy" the franchise has been looking for after you took a hard look at HOW he played in college. There is still time for him to become "they guy", but when you see the bad throws and missed reads, it does not give you warm fuzzies. I don't want to hear that he needs a stud RB and a beefy O-line and deep WR core to perform. He is the #1 pick that should be elevating the team.
I don't want to wait 4 years for him to "start" to develop, only to demand a billion dollars for "OK" qb play.

No more excuses! Get the ball out quickly!

[fleet]

If you watched that game and thought Caleb Williams was "average" fair enough. I thought he was hot garbage. Maybe my definition of average is too high or maybe week 1 is skewed downward based on everyone still finding their rhythm.

Same problems seemed repeatedly out there to me:
1: Did not get ball out on time
2: Did not seem to make reads on time
3: Inaccurate passes on short balls that with accurate passes would have led to much larger gains

The numbers are all okay-ish, but watching the sausage being made left me feeling a lot worse than the numbers.

Not to say he won't be better next game or that he can't be the guy, but I would evaluate this game as very poor.

I think we saw those things at times. But I also felt like he did very well avoiding sacks that would have been sacks last year. I also saw plenty of occasions where he got the ball out on time even if he didn’t make throws where there were bigger opportunities. Overall, I thought he was decent but not good enough when he needed to be. But in terms of the loss, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

We could have done without all of the penalties.
We could have used that FG that BJ passed on in the first half.
We could have used that timeout that was burned on a challenge that we weren’t gong to win.
Etc….

One of the penalties was intentional grounding on Caleb, and I know our secondary is injured, but the defense also scored a TD and only gave up 6 points in the first half.

It’s not over for Caleb, and I hope that he can continue to improve, but this loss is on him. For a guy who was supposed to be a “generational talent,” how many times is he going to get outplayed by rookies from his draft class?

We have lost to all except Nix and Penix, but we haven’t had an opportunity yet. We will have an unlikely chance to lose to Spencer Rattler, and then Rodgers again though.

The Panthers really screwed us by losing all those games. If they had gotten us a pick around the #9 range like they had the year before, we would have drafted McCarthy and the Bears FO would’ve been saved from itself.

[Jimako10]

Read on Twitter

[fleet]

I was team trade the Caleb pick for a haul. I'm not here to say I told you so, and it's extremely too early even if I wanted to.

The positive takeaway from last night is that Caleb is improving. Last year, Caleb hunted the long passes upfield until pressure got to him, and he had to scramble/eat a sack. Last night, you can tell he was going through his progressions and then checking down quickly before pressure got to him.

The problem, as other people have mentioned, is that he isn't hitting those guys down the field. Im not sure if he wants guys to have a 5-yard bubble of open field around them, he can't see the field because of his height, he's terrified of interceptions or something else.

I refuse to believe that DJ Moore, Rome, Burden, Loveland, and company aren't getting open in Ben Johnsons scheme.

I don't know how long you give Caleb to get out of his own head and throw it downfield, but fans are tired of being told to have "patience." The Bagent screams will get louder, and the Poles criticism for drafting Williams will get more intense.

Trading for the haul only works if we had another 2024 quarterback target in mind. Keeping Fields was not a good option considering the possible upsides of quarterbacks in 2024 class. The Bears were rumored to actually like McCarthy *sigh*. Anyway, they didn’t have an open mind to fully scout and consider the whole class. Caleb, nobody else.


He’s got all the targets in the world, and a large investment in the O-line now. But as we are being shown, a quarterback is good (or not good) no matter what else is around him. We never needed any of these things to scout Trubisky, Fields or Williams properly. Talent is apparent. Targets and blockers don’t turn meh guys into greats. Targeting and Lack of Targets and blockers don’t turn great guys into meh. They all only get marginally more or less useful when they have help or not.

Yes he going through progressions and looking for open guys rather than getting a good read pre and post snap and knowing what he should be doing first (if open).

They’re gonna have to simplify the offense again like Waldron allegedly resorted to in order to speed him up and get his cadence together. Gravity is undeniable. IIRC, this was already supposed to have happened.

[Dresden]

Read on Twitter

That's hilarious they have a category called "hospital balls"

[panthermark]

I was team trade the Caleb pick for a haul. I'm not here to say I told you so, and it's extremely too early even if I wanted to.

The positive takeaway from last night is that Caleb is improving. Last year, Caleb hunted the long passes upfield until pressure got to him, and he had to scramble/eat a sack. Last night, you can tell he was going through his progressions and then checking down quickly before pressure got to him.

The problem, as other people have mentioned, is that he isn't hitting those guys down the field. Im not sure if he wants guys to have a 5-yard bubble of open field around them, he can't see the field because of his height, he's terrified of interceptions or something else.

I refuse to believe that DJ Moore, Rome, Burden, Loveland, and company aren't getting open in Ben Johnsons scheme.

I don't know how long you give Caleb to get out of his own head and throw it downfield, but fans are tired of being told to have "patience." The Bagent screams will get louder, and the Poles criticism for drafting Williams will get more intense.

Trading for the haul only works if we had another quarterback target in mind. Keeping Fields was not a good option considering the possible upsides of quarterbacks in 2024 class. The Bears were rumored to actually like McCarthy *sigh* Anyway, they didn’t have an open mind to fully scout and consider the whole class.


He’s got all the targets in the world, and a large investment in the O-line now. But as we are being shown, a quarterback is good (or not good) no matter what else is around him if he’s truly good enough. We never needed any of these things to scout Trubisky, Fields or Williams properly. Talent is apparent. Targets and blockers don’t make meh guys great. Lack of Targets and blockers don’t make great guys meh. They all only get marginally more or less useful.

Yes he going through progressions and looking for open guys rather than getting a good read pre and post snap and knowing what he should be doing first (if open).

They’re gonna have to simplify the offense again like Waldron allegedly resorted to in order to speed him up. Gravity is undeniable. IIRC, this was already supposed to have happened.

Trading for a haul worked if you had an EDGE in mind (or an OT), along with other assets.....or the FO was not completely locked in to a certain player and didn't bother scouting other QB's.
In 2023 we won 7 games with a HC that got fired and is now a DC.
An OC that got fired, then fired again as an OC, and is now a "senior assistant"....whatever the hell that is.
Two RB's that are currently not even in the league anymore. (Herbert just got cut from the Indy practice squad yesterday. No one has signed Foreman)
A bunch of "key" WR's that are either out of the league (Clayfool, ESB), or on a practice squad (Scott), or are no longer WR's (VJJ). And none of that is due to age. They are just not good players.
A crap O-line

Given the same upgrades, I'm pretty sure JF1 could have done better than 5-13 over his last 18. Even if he wasn't the long term answer, it kept assets.

The more I think about this, the more I want to say F Ryan Poles.

[fleet]

I was team trade the Caleb pick for a haul. I'm not here to say I told you so, and it's extremely too early even if I wanted to.

The positive takeaway from last night is that Caleb is improving. Last year, Caleb hunted the long passes upfield until pressure got to him, and he had to scramble/eat a sack. Last night, you can tell he was going through his progressions and then checking down quickly before pressure got to him.

The problem, as other people have mentioned, is that he isn't hitting those guys down the field. Im not sure if he wants guys to have a 5-yard bubble of open field around them, he can't see the field because of his height, he's terrified of interceptions or something else.

I refuse to believe that DJ Moore, Rome, Burden, Loveland, and company aren't getting open in Ben Johnsons scheme.

I don't know how long you give Caleb to get out of his own head and throw it downfield, but fans are tired of being told to have "patience." The Bagent screams will get louder, and the Poles criticism for drafting Williams will get more intense.

Trading for the haul only works if we had another quarterback target in mind. Keeping Fields was not a good option considering the possible upsides of quarterbacks in 2024 class. The Bears were rumored to actually like McCarthy *sigh* Anyway, they didn’t have an open mind to fully scout and consider the whole class.


He’s got all the targets in the world, and a large investment in the O-line now. But as we are being shown, a quarterback is good (or not good) no matter what else is around him if he’s truly good enough. We never needed any of these things to scout Trubisky, Fields or Williams properly. Talent is apparent. Targets and blockers don’t make meh guys great. Lack of Targets and blockers don’t make great guys meh. They all only get marginally more or less useful.

Yes he going through progressions and looking for open guys rather than getting a good read pre and post snap and knowing what he should be doing first (if open).

They’re gonna have to simplify the offense again like Waldron allegedly resorted to in order to speed him up. Gravity is undeniable. IIRC, this was already supposed to have happened.

Trading for a haul worked if you had an EDGE in mind (or an OT), along with other assets.....or the FO was not completely locked in to a certain player and didn't bother scouting other QB's.
In 2023 we won 7 games with a HC that got fired and is now a DC.
An OC that got fired, then fired again as an OC, and is now a "senior assistant"....whatever the hell that is.
Two RB's that are currently not even in the league anymore. (Herbert just got cut from the Indy practice squad yesterday. No one has signed Foreman)
A bunch of "key" WR's that are either out of the league (Clayfool, ESB), or on a practice squad (Scott), or are no longer WR's (VJJ). And none of that is due to age. They are just not good players.
A crap O-line

Given the same upgrades, I'm pretty sure JF1 could have done better than 5-13 over his last 18. Even if he wasn't the long term answer, it kept assets.

The more I think about this, the more I want to say F Ryan Poles.

If considering trading down, the question in 2024 is not what can Fields do with such and such lineup. The question is balanced against ignoring the prospects of adding Maye, Daniels, McCarthy, Penix, Nix. A quarterback starved franchise like the Chicago Bears can’t just walk away from the chance to draft one of those guys in the winter and spring of 2024. Especially in the wake of walking away from CJ Stroud and the rookie year he registered.

[TheGOATRises007]

If Caleb doesn't improve and mightily in this regard, then yeah he's a bust.

He definitely needs to show something by midseason I'd think to maintain faith from Ben Johnson.

[panthermark]

Trading for the haul only works if we had another quarterback target in mind. Keeping Fields was not a good option considering the possible upsides of quarterbacks in 2024 class. The Bears were rumored to actually like McCarthy *sigh* Anyway, they didn’t have an open mind to fully scout and consider the whole class.


He’s got all the targets in the world, and a large investment in the O-line now. But as we are being shown, a quarterback is good (or not good) no matter what else is around him if he’s truly good enough. We never needed any of these things to scout Trubisky, Fields or Williams properly. Talent is apparent. Targets and blockers don’t make meh guys great. Lack of Targets and blockers don’t make great guys meh. They all only get marginally more or less useful.

Yes he going through progressions and looking for open guys rather than getting a good read pre and post snap and knowing what he should be doing first (if open).

They’re gonna have to simplify the offense again like Waldron allegedly resorted to in order to speed him up. Gravity is undeniable. IIRC, this was already supposed to have happened.

Trading for a haul worked if you had an EDGE in mind (or an OT), along with other assets.....or the FO was not completely locked in to a certain player and didn't bother scouting other QB's.
In 2023 we won 7 games with a HC that got fired and is now a DC.
An OC that got fired, then fired again as an OC, and is now a "senior assistant"....whatever the hell that is.
Two RB's that are currently not even in the league anymore. (Herbert just got cut from the Indy practice squad yesterday. No one has signed Foreman)
A bunch of "key" WR's that are either out of the league (Clayfool, ESB), or on a practice squad (Scott), or are no longer WR's (VJJ). And none of that is due to age. They are just not good players.
A crap O-line

Given the same upgrades, I'm pretty sure JF1 could have done better than 5-13 over his last 18. Even if he wasn't the long term answer, it kept assets.

The more I think about this, the more I want to say F Ryan Poles.

If considering trading down, the question in 2024 is not what can Fields do with such and such lineup. The question is balanced against ignoring the prospects of adding Maye, Daniels, McCarthy, Penix, Nix. A quarterback starved franchise like the Chicago Bears can’t just walk away from the chance to draft one of those guys in the winter and spring of 2024. Especially in the wake of walking away from CJ Stroud and the rookie year he registered.

But that is what we did. Daniels, Maye, McCarthy, Penix, Nix and Stroud are not on this roster. Taking the wrong QB because we needed a "franchise QB" is far worse than not taking a QB and getting assets. But at this point we are locked in, and can only hope CW turns it around quickly (and there is a lot that needs to be turned around).

[Bulls69]

Ben isn't gonna put up with this for long. Bagent will be in there soon enough

Okay lol do me a favor look At Bagent stats as a starter in a regular season game.


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[Dresden]

Ben isn't gonna put up with this for long. Bagent will be in there soon enough

Okay lol do me a favor look At Bagent stats as a starter in a regular season game.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

New year, new coach, new offense, new weapons. I'd like to see it.

[panthermark]

If Caleb doesn't improve and mightily in this regard, then yeah he's a bust.

He definitely needs to show something by midseason I'd think to maintain faith from Ben Johnson.

Ouch
But that tracks. It seems like he downfield passing his pretty bad. Good thing Kmet made an amazing 1 handed catch last night (for his only catch), as that was CW's longest completed pass.

[dice]

Read on Twitter

i had hospital balls for a while. very painful

[dice]

I was team trade the Caleb pick for a haul. I'm not here to say I told you so, and it's extremely too early even if I wanted to.

The positive takeaway from last night is that Caleb is improving. Last year, Caleb hunted the long passes upfield until pressure got to him, and he had to scramble/eat a sack. Last night, you can tell he was going through his progressions and then checking down quickly before pressure got to him.

The problem, as other people have mentioned, is that he isn't hitting those guys down the field. Im not sure if he wants guys to have a 5-yard bubble of open field around them, he can't see the field because of his height, he's terrified of interceptions or something else.

I refuse to believe that DJ Moore, Rome, Burden, Loveland, and company aren't getting open in Ben Johnsons scheme.

I don't know how long you give Caleb to get out of his own head and throw it downfield, but fans are tired of being told to have "patience." The Bagent screams will get louder, and the Poles criticism for drafting Williams will get more intense.

Sent from my SM-A146U using RealGM Forums mobile app

he was for sure a step above where he was last year. BJ is not a miracle worker. i expect more improvement

[dice]

rbsdm.com/stats

These are the best advanced metrics and they had Caleb bottom 5 yesterday.

epa he is right below the average line. other categories in the average range as well. in epa+cpoe he is 27/32 but that is a predictive stat