Bears talk 2.0; Fields era begins for real for real

[dice]

It's pretty telling how inept the FO is when Urban Meyer gets canned after only 13 games. Here we are in our 4th year of this unmitigated disaster and Nagy is still hanging on by a thread. SMFH!!

Well, he did go 12-4 one year, and their rookie QB made the Pro Bowl, and if they had gotten him a reliable place kicker, would have been at least into the second round of the playoffs. That will buy you some time.

Fangio did.

and mr. clutch trubisky

[dougthonus]

It's pretty telling how inept the FO is when Urban Meyer gets canned after only 13 games. Here we are in our 4th year of this unmitigated disaster and Nagy is still hanging on by a thread. SMFH!!

Prior to this season the Bears were 28-20 under Nagy with playoff appearances in 2 of 3 years while also boasting among the worst skill position players in the NFL. This season looks like a wreck for Nagy, and he'll probably leave the Bears something like 34-31 overall.

The previous four years before Nagy? 19-45.

I'm not saying Nagy's a superstar head coach, but he's definitely not a dud or a loser. It's probably time to pick someone else and go a different direction after four years and a total failure this year, but if you don't get someone you know is a stud (and probably no such guy is available), there's probably a 2/3rds chance you end up with someone worse than Nagy and end up closer to the look you had in those previous four years.

Same was true of Lovie Smith whom everyone hated by the end of his tenure (10-6 but missed playoffs in his last year), and they dumped him (which was fine, he'd been there a long time and the team probably needed a new voice), but we went through two complete duds before landing on Nagy whom was competent (though not exceptional). I don't mind getting rid of a competent guy and gambling on finding exceptional, but we'll almost certainly pull from a pool of known competent (not exceptional) guys or unknown guys that are more likely be incompetent than competent and highly unlikely to be exceptional.

The real problem with this team has been Ryan Pace missing on Trubisky in the draft and paying a big price to move up to take the by far the worst of three QBs that were possibilities. Imagine if he had traded down and drafted MaHomes or Watson instead and increased our assets and paid them less money? This team might have legit won a superbowl. I won't kill Pace for guessing wrong, people take guesses, but if you want to point to a single problem with the Bears, that's it. That's the one. That's the single decision that if you reverse makes this team a perennial 10+ win team with superbowl hopes at the beginning of every season.

Hopefully his pick of Fields is better. I loved Fields as a pick, but so far the early returns aren't promising to me. Not to say I'm giving up on Fields, there are lots of mitigating factors (also due to Pace's inability to bring in good skill players or a good offensive line) but nothing he's done to date makes me think "thank goodness we don't need to worry about QB for the next 10 years".

[MalagaBulls]

It's pretty telling how inept the FO is when Urban Meyer gets canned after only 13 games. Here we are in our 4th year of this unmitigated disaster and Nagy is still hanging on by a thread. SMFH!!

Prior to this season the Bears were 28-20 under Nagy with playoff appearances in 2 of 3 years while also boasting among the worst skill position players in the NFL. This season looks like a wreck for Nagy, and he'll probably leave the Bears something like 34-31 overall.

The previous four years before Nagy? 19-45.

I'm not saying Nagy's a superstar head coach, but he's definitely not a dud or a loser. It's probably time to pick someone else and go a different direction after four years and a total failure this year, but if you don't get someone you know is a stud (and probably no such guy is available), there's probably a 2/3rds chance you end up with someone worse than Nagy and end up closer to the look you had in those previous four years.

Same was true of Lovie Smith whom everyone hated by the end of his tenure (10-6 but missed playoffs in his last year), and they dumped him (which was fine, he'd been there a long time and the team probably needed a new voice), but we went through two complete duds before landing on Nagy whom was competent (though not exceptional). I don't mind getting rid of a competent guy and gambling on finding exceptional, but we'll almost certainly pull from a pool of known competent (not exceptional) guys or unknown guys that are more likely be incompetent than competent and highly unlikely to be exceptional.

Sorry to difer Doug but Nagy has been over his head and the W-L record doesn't tell the whole story. He's been utterly inept as the billed QB whisperer and his offenses have been bottom of the barrel over the past 3 years. That includes passing, total O, & scoring.

[dougthonus]

Sorry to difer Doug but Nagy has been over his head and the W-L record doesn't tell the whole story. He's been utterly inept as the billed QB whisperer and his offenses have been bottom of the barrel over the past 3 years. That includes passing, total O, & scoring.

No one starts a fire by rubbing two dried turds together, and that's effectively what Nagy has been asked to do.

Again, I don't care if we get rid of Nagy, but probably 2/3 chance you're going to get someone much worse as your next head coach. Nagy's competent, and those who think otherwise are deluding themselves because they take for granted everything that's working and hyperanalyze only the things that aren't, when the reality is that when you get rid of Nagy a lot of stuff that was working may stop working, and you also have no guarantees that things that weren't working will go better. Look no further than Trestman or Fox eras.

At any rate, I'm not fighting that he stays, but he's not "the" problem. He's probably not "the" solution either, so it's fine to seek an upgrade just like you would any other position/player/whatever. Just don't be surprised when the next guy is even worse.

[MalagaBulls]

Sorry but I can't agree. The locker is divided, weekly pressers are BS riddled word salads, & I actually think Nagy is worse or equally as bad as Trestman.
I stopped reading at the line where you wrote Nagy was competent.
We all have our opinions on Nagy and I think the next coach can't be as bad.
Agree to disagree.

[dougthonus]

Sorry but I can't agree. The locker is divided, weekly pressers are BS riddled word salads, & I actually think Nagy is worse or equally as bad as Trestman.
I stopped reading at the line where you wrote Nagy was competent.
We all have our opinions on Nagy and I think the next coach can't be as bad.
Agree to disagree.

It doesn't really matter, like I said, I think it's time for Nagy to go too. I agree he doesn't have the locker room now and once you lose the locker room, you've lost the battle.

However, go find all the coaches in the NBA with above .500 record with bottom 1/3rd starting QBs over a four year span, my guess is that list is really small, in fact there probably aren't even many coaches that make it four years while having a bottom 1/3rd QB. Nagy is such a coach. His results while operating at a massive deficit at the most important position on the field are pretty good objectively.

He may be a problem, but the much, much bigger problem is Pace was unable to solve the QB problem so far (and certainly didn't do enough with the roster to overcome that). No coach would save this roster. Could Bill Belichick gotten them to an additional 4-5 wins over the past four seasons with the same roster? Maybe. Would Trestman or Fox have lost probably 4-5 more games? Much more likely IMO.

[Chi town]

This GarPax 2.0.

Bring in a whole new regime. Top to bottom.

[Dresden]

Sorry but I can't agree. The locker is divided, weekly pressers are BS riddled word salads, & I actually think Nagy is worse or equally as bad as Trestman.
I stopped reading at the line where you wrote Nagy was competent.
We all have our opinions on Nagy and I think the next coach can't be as bad.
Agree to disagree.

It doesn't really matter, like I said, I think it's time for Nagy to go too. I agree he doesn't have the locker room now and once you lose the locker room, you've lost the battle.

However, go find all the coaches in the NBA with above .500 record with bottom 1/3rd starting QBs over a four year span, my guess is that list is really small, in fact there probably aren't even many coaches that make it four years while having a bottom 1/3rd QB. Nagy is such a coach. His results while operating at a massive deficit at the most important position on the field are pretty good objectively.

He may be a problem, but the much, much bigger problem is Pace was unable to solve the QB problem so far (and certainly didn't do enough with the roster to overcome that). No coach would save this roster. Could Bill Belichick gotten them to an additional 4-5 wins over the past four seasons with the same roster? Maybe. Would Trestman or Fox have lost probably 4-5 more games? Much more likely IMO.

I think you're making some good points Doug, esp. about the lack of personnel on offense. Particularly the offensive line. I don't know of any QB that can look good behind a terrible line that gives them little to no time to make decisions when they drop back. Maybe there are a few that can do it like Brees or Brady, but for most QB's, when they are getting such little time to throw, are constantly running for their lives, it's pretty tough to even get a read on whether they are any good or not.

It's all kind of like dominoes- the O line has sucked, so it's hard to evaluate the QB. And because of that, it's hard to evaluate the receivers. And because of all that, it's hard to win games, and because of that, it's hard to evaluate the coach.

But rebuilding seems like the best option now, and I hope the talk is true of getting a new team president in charge of football ops. Gary Fencik's remarks the other day were pretty telling about how inept and clueless the people at the top of the org. are. Depressing, really.

They need someone like Jim Finks brought in, who completely revitalized the org. in the 80's (or maybe it was late 70'). A very knowledgeable football person who was well respected around the league, with years and years of experience at a high level. And then get out of that person's way.

[dougthonus]

I think you're making some good points Doug, esp. about the lack of personnel on offense. Particularly the offensive line. I don't know of any QB that can look good behind a terrible line that gives them little to no time to make decisions when they drop back. Maybe there are a few that can do it like Brees or Brady, but for most QB's, when they are getting such little time to throw, are constantly running for their lives, it's pretty tough to even get a read on whether they are any good or not.

It's all kind of like dominoes- the O line has sucked, so it's hard to evaluate the QB. And because of that, it's hard to evaluate the receivers. And because of all that, it's hard to win games, and because of that, it's hard to evaluate the coach.

But rebuilding seems like the best option now, and I hope the talk is true of getting a new team president in charge of football ops. Gary Fencik's remarks the other day were pretty telling about how inept and clueless the people at the top of the org. are. Depressing, really.

They need someone like Jim Finks brought in, who completely revitalized the org. in the 80's (or maybe it was late 70'). A very knowledgeable football person who was well respected around the league, with years and years of experience at a high level. And then get out of that person's way.

I agree a rebuild seems to be where they are heading. I also agree they should start over top to bottom in terms of GM/Coach whatever. I don't think you can allow Pace to hire the next head coach unless you think Pace is going to be there for another four years, so understanding that decision is important first IMO.

Pace was supposed to be that well respected up and comer, but it didn't turn out that way. I don't know that anyone got in his way or caused him problems or anything like that. The Bears ownership doesn't seem to be pulling strings in any weird ways and the NFL has a hard cap so it isn't like the NBA where permission to spend and luxury tax is a factor so I would think generally unless you have Jerry Jones as your own there is a pretty good degree of latitude in what the GM is doing.

[Susan]

Sorry but I can't agree. The locker is divided, weekly pressers are BS riddled word salads, & I actually think Nagy is worse or equally as bad as Trestman.
I stopped reading at the line where you wrote Nagy was competent.
We all have our opinions on Nagy and I think the next coach can't be as bad.
Agree to disagree.

It doesn't really matter, like I said, I think it's time for Nagy to go too. I agree he doesn't have the locker room now and once you lose the locker room, you've lost the battle.

However, go find all the coaches in the NBA with above .500 record with bottom 1/3rd starting QBs over a four year span, my guess is that list is really small, in fact there probably aren't even many coaches that make it four years while having a bottom 1/3rd QB. Nagy is such a coach. His results while operating at a massive deficit at the most important position on the field are pretty good objectively.

He may be a problem, but the much, much bigger problem is Pace was unable to solve the QB problem so far (and certainly didn't do enough with the roster to overcome that). No coach would save this roster. Could Bill Belichick gotten them to an additional 4-5 wins over the past four seasons with the same roster? Maybe. Would Trestman or Fox have lost probably 4-5 more games? Much more likely IMO.

Lol, John Fox has actually won a playoff game (with Jake Delhomme).

[dougthonus]

Lol, John Fox has actually won a playoff game (with Jake Delhomme).

lol. you apparently think John Fox was a good coach here.

[Susan]

Lol, John Fox has actually won a playoff game (with Jake Delhomme).

lol. you apparently think John Fox was a good coach here.

lol, you think Matt Nagy is a good coach.

-Fox wasn't that great here mainly because they were in a full on rebuild where their defense was lacking ANYTHING halfway decent following the Trestman era and their offense was old and needed to be fully torn down
-Fox had significantly less talent on the offensive side of the ball for his 3 years and yielded better results than Nagy because he actually understood that there's a need for a running game in the NFL.
-The team's greatest strength under Nagy was the result of John Fox - the defense. It was extremely elite in 2018 because of the development that John Fox's staff did in the previous years and trading for Khalil Mack/drafting Roquan Smith

Nagy won't ever go into a better situation from the jump than the one he came into here. John Fox went to the Super Bowl as a DC once and twice as a head coach, he was 119-89 over the span of 13 years before coming here. Their resumes are not even close, Nagy was a playcaller for like 6 games before he was hired here and got embarrassed in the playoffs .

I would point to Cordarrelle Patterson's breakout year after leaving here to show how Nagy did in fact talent on his roster that he mismanaged but I'm not confident you know who that is.

Nagy's job was to develop a good offense here - you say it was because he wasn't given enough talent but the fact is, he's been absolutely terrible at developing/utilizing the talent he has been given and has been really good at passing the blame onto his QBs (that he helped handpick). He's a decent guy who's been proven to be a fraud of a tactician.

[TyrusRose2425]

Nagy had every excuse in the book going for him for 3 years. Hell, even I was more than fine with him getting this season given everything from the past. But it's obvious he has never grown or learn and that all prior success is truly built on the defense and what guys like Fangio built.

I don't care for Pace anymore either. If he goes I won't complain. I'll be okay if he stays but much like Nagy, it could be seeing a mess for one year too long that does it for me. Frankly, he should have had the foresight to see that Nagy wasn't the guy and cut ties at the end of last season.

[dice]

Nagy had every excuse in the book going for him for 3 years. Hell, even I was more than fine with him getting this season given everything from the past. But it's obvious he has never grown or learn and that all prior success is truly built on the defense and what guys like Fangio built.

call me crazy, but i've always had a problem with guys who are incapable of making good in-game decisions, particularly regarding clock management. hated dave wannstedt for that reason and it's the same w/ nagy. someone noted a couple of weeks ago how he had to be reminded to go for 2. then against the pack they were getting torched by rodgers, down 11 w/ 13 minutes left and 4th and 1 from own 36. you're a decided underdog, you need two scores (probably both touchdowns), and instead you give the ball back to rodgers? you're lucky to get 2 POSSESSIONS at that point, let alone 2 scores. well, the packers then ran 8+ minutes off the clock and scored. game over

[The 6ft Hurdle]

I saw the Bears for the first time all season this last game against the Pack. Fields is good but wow there is such a severe lack of talent everywhere else. Wayyy too many drops.

My gut has always told me Nagy is alright, but Pace is just all over the freakin' place. I mean these teams have zero identity. At least with the Lovie Bears we had these solid defensive teams good for anywhere between 8-12 wins a year. I really don't know what were trying to do.

[Susan]

I saw the Bears for the first time all season this last game against the Pack. Fields is good but wow there is such a severe lack of talent everywhere else. Wayyy too many drops.

My gut has always told me Nagy is alright, but Pace is just all over the freakin' place. I mean these teams have zero identity. At least with the Lovie Bears we had these solid defensive teams good for anywhere between 8-12 wins a year. I really don't know what were trying to do.

I see it:

Years 1-3: Rebuild foundation, no long term contracts, just rebuild culture in lockerroom and give yourself a core to build on
Years 4-6: Make push hard with QB on rookie deal, infused team with legit talent (Mack, Robinson, Quinn) to go with young core - hired QB centric HC to get most out of Mitch and develop offense
Year 7: Reboot with Fields

Nagy got figured out about 10 games into his 1st season and deflected blame to the QB position. First it was Foles as the savior, then Dalton and he was afraid to actually play Fields and he put him in a criminally bad spot in that Cleveland game.

Mitch turned out to be the wrong one, but IMO Nagy had a lot to do with that. He never played to his strengths.

No matter who takes over as GM, they have a good young offensive core to build with: Fields, Monty, Mooney, Herbert, Kmet, Borom, Jenkins. They can add some pieces to that and build a good defense around Roquan, Jaylon, Mack and Quinn next year with some shrewd moves.

[dougthonus]

lol, you think Matt Nagy is a good coach.

lol, you can't read, and still think Fox was a good coach and also think Trubisky was better than Delhomme.

[dougthonus]

No matter who takes over as GM, they have a good young offensive core to build with: Fields, Monty, Mooney, Herbert, Kmet, Borom, Jenkins. They can add some pieces to that and build a good defense around Roquan, Jaylon, Mack and Quinn next year with some shrewd moves.

On offense:
Really comes down to Fields IMO. If Fields is the real deal then you have a lot to start with. If he ends up not the real deal, then you are still hosed at the most important position, and no one else on this list is impressive either way, it's just if Fields is great that matters a lot less as you can much more easily add the other positions and great QB play elevates the rest of them considerably.


On defense:
Definitely some pieces here, defense should still be quality.

Not a cap expert to know how much flexibility they have to add more major pieces on offense, but I'd imagine you'd really want to do what you can to solve the offensive line if possible.

[Susan]

lol, you think Matt Nagy is a good coach.

lol, you can't read, and still think Fox was a good coach and also think Trubisky was better than Delhomme.

His results while operating at a massive deficit at the most important position on the field are pretty good objectively.

Sorry if I read this as you saying he's been good coach.

And really, your analysis is about as wrong as it can be - he was hired to maximize the QB position and has consistently failed to do so because he's incapable of coaching to his players strengths. Saying he his results were objectively good because of his W-L is a goofy stance considering they had a halfway decent 3 year run because of the defense, something he had nothing to do with - it gets even goofier when you then go on to ignore John Fox's longer run as a HC that was by every measure more successful than Matt Nagy's and he wound up actually making it to the Super Bowl with Jake Freaking Delhomme as his starting QB.

[dougthonus]

lol, you think Matt Nagy is a good coach.

lol, you can't read, and still think Fox was a good coach and also think Trubisky was better than Delhomme.

His results while operating at a massive deficit at the most important position on the field are pretty good objectively.

Sorry if I read this as you saying he's been good coach.

For the sake of trying to get the conversation back on track and stopping the petty jabs, my point was:

Nagy is fine as a head coach. He is nothing special. It is time for him to be replaced. He's also not horrible. He isn't the reason the Bears are losing. When he is gone we won't start winning just because we replaced him without making massive moves on the roster, because the talent level we have is awful, particularly at quarterback during his tenure (hopefully Fields solves that) and that no one wins consistently with quarterbacks as the quality we have.

I'm okay with getting Nagy regardless, but I also would agree with you that he's probably not the right coach for Fields and have not been impressed with how he uses Fields.

I also said things like I agree he lost the team and it's time for him to go and that he's nothing special. You seem to be stuck on thinking I love Nagy when I agreed he should be fired and said he's competent not exceptional. The only point I have made it towards people whom think that Nagy is the root cause of everything bad here. He isn't. That is the talent on the roster.