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Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

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S & T not happening - should Bulls match Houston offer to Omer?

They should match and will
74
31%
They should match but will not
16
7%
They should not match but will
80
34%
They should not match and will not
68
29%
 
Total votes: 238

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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#181 » by DanTown8587 » Thu Jul 5, 2012 9:52 pm

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:
DanTown8587 wrote:
Magilla_Gorilla wrote:
He's the second choice to start - and yet he is playing there in crunch time with Taj while Noah and Boozer ride the bench. That's why i expect the bulls to match - they're not going to find anyone remotely comparable on the FA market.


You're not getting my point. My point is that he's a luxury. Or that Noah is. I don't really care which one is the luxury or the necessity since they have different skill sets, the point is you can't keep both. Either Joakim Noah isn't a 12 million a year center or Omer Asik is getting a lot of money to be a part time contributor.

And by the way, how many playoff games has Omer closed out andthe Bulls won? This isn't a game 6 of Philly shot, but the Bulls have lost playoff games due to lack of offense while playing elite defense the past two years.


I got your point, but I think we just have a very fundamental disagreement on Asik's worth to this team. I would agree that for 90% of the teams in the league his position as a backup C would be a luxury not to be afforded, but for this team - its not. Asik is a necessity if we want to mantian the bench advantage we have and to keep games within reach for our mediocre offense.

I agree we need to upgrade the offense, but I don't think we should do it at the expense of the best defender on the team, an elite post defender.


No, we don't. I think Omer is important to the team. But the Bulls aren't the Knicks, they make choices based on the roster. So some day the Bulls will have roster choices on Taj, Noah, Deng, a future SG. And those four guys are more important than Omer.

Rose
Deng
Noah
Gibson
Un-named SG
Omer

That's my core if I could have it. The Bulls don't want that. They are keeping Boozer and his massive contract around so the Bulls have choices. And that's why Omer gets the short end.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#182 » by Red Larrivee » Thu Jul 5, 2012 10:03 pm

GetSeven wrote:If the Bulls match, I hope it pushes Boozer out the door & not Noah/Taj...I have my doubts


Boozer isn't leaving unless a team offers expiring, or the summer of 2014, when he'll have one year left on his deal and biting an amnesty will be much easier to handle.

Amnestying him anytime before that isn't cost effective. While he doesn't count against the cap, the Bulls would still be paying him that money over the next three years, and it would be to play for another team and be an asset there.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#183 » by Rerisen » Thu Jul 5, 2012 10:16 pm

Steve Kyler: One Western Conference Exec asked "Why is everyone acting like Houston invented some mastermind solution... those guys getting matched"


I hope he's right.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#184 » by Magilla_Gorilla » Thu Jul 5, 2012 10:39 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Steve Kyler: One Western Conference Exec asked "Why is everyone acting like Houston invented some mastermind solution... those guys getting matched"


I hope he's right.



As well.


If Houston tears this mother down - I expect I can get some damn cheap tickets next year.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#185 » by kyrv » Thu Jul 5, 2012 10:41 pm

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:
Rerisen wrote:
Steve Kyler: One Western Conference Exec asked "Why is everyone acting like Houston invented some mastermind solution... those guys getting matched"


I hope he's right.



As well.


If Houston tears this mother down - I expect I can get some damn cheap tickets next year.


The SG and PF apalooza, including locking up the now 3rd string SG apparently for over MLE money. :o

They are going to "out SG and PF" teams.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#186 » by Action Paxson » Thu Jul 5, 2012 11:44 pm

I initially thought matching Omer would be crazy, but now I'm torn. I think Omer is the 2nd best defensive presence in the league. IMO, he is a starting center in this league. However, he needs to next to a KG or Dirk type of offensive PF, otherwise you just won't have enough offense coming from your bigs. You have to look at Asik a Ben Wallace type.

So I guess the real question is, in 2 years will we have Mirotic, and how good will he be? Can he be a 20ppg scorer? If the answer is yes, then I would be in favor of matching and dealing Noah in 2 years. Problem is, if Mirotic doesn't come over, or if he ends up flopping we are kind of screwed.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#187 » by Rerisen » Thu Jul 5, 2012 11:57 pm

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:As well.

If Houston tears this mother down - I expect I can get some damn cheap tickets next year.


If this all falls apart for Houston, as in they lose out on Lin, have no PG, maybe lose Lee. Does Omer even make sense for them anymore? Can they pull the offer? I think so, but it would look real bad.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#188 » by PJ Brown » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:14 am

I'm wondering what people think about Asik in light of the now obviously insane free agent market. The logic of letting him go, aside from avoiding cap/tax risks in year three, is that the Bulls can use the MLE to bring in a guard/improve the offense, but if Lee is getting more than MLE, Roy is getting two years at MLE prices, etc, suddenly devoting the MLE to a guard doesn't look like a particularly smart investment---really, is it now possible that Kirk gets MLE money from somebody, for example? Does the market make you more likely to keep Asik, if it becomes impossible to get a guard who can make a difference?
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#189 » by LoveDaBoo » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:48 am

Action Paxson wrote:I initially thought matching Omer would be crazy, but now I'm torn. I think Omer is the 2nd best defensive presence in the league.

No. Not even close. I don't even think Asik is 3rd, but he can't possibly be better than that with Dwight and LeBron in the league.

IMO, he is a starting center in this league.

Disagree again. Omer is great in his role. Really, he is. He's fantastic to come in in spot situations where you need one specific role filled. But as a starter? No. His value diminishes tremendously when a) he has to be less aggressive and b) his ineptitude on offense plays out over the course of a game.

Whether the Bulls win a championship or not will simply not hinge on having Omer or not. If that sort of role-filling position is so important to your team, your team isn't good enough to win a championship. I think that's one of the big fallacies with our team now: the notion that we'll win with depth. Problem with that is, the more moving parts in the system, the more chaotic it is. A team that utilizes depth has an advantage over the course of a long system, both in keeping players fresh, and filling in for injuries. But when the playoffs come around, having a great starting 5 and maybe a 6th man is better.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#190 » by anorexorcism » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:50 am

Red Larrivee wrote:Amnestying him anytime before that isn't cost effective.


Players and coaches don't win championships, cost accountants do (and before you go off on me, I'm an accountant).
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#191 » by Rerisen » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:57 am

If Dwight to L.A, better match Omer. You aren't stopping that team with just Joakim Noah.

I don't care if Kobe, Gasol and Nash are old, they can compete for at least 3 more years there supporting Dwight.
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Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#192 » by Magilla_Gorilla » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:57 am

LoveDaBoo wrote:
Action Paxson wrote:I initially thought matching Omer would be crazy, but now I'm torn. I think Omer is the 2nd best defensive presence in the league.

No. Not even close. I don't even think Asik is 3rd, but he can't possibly be better than that with Dwight and LeBron in the league.

IMO, he is a starting center in this league.

Disagree again. Omer is great in his role. Really, he is. He's fantastic to come in in spot situations where you need one specific role filled. But as a starter? No. His value diminishes tremendously when a) he has to be less aggressive and b) his ineptitude on offense plays out over the course of a game.

Whether the Bulls win a championship or not will simply not hinge on having Omer or not. If that sort of role-filling position is so important to your team, your team isn't good enough to win a championship. I think that's one of the big fallacies with our team now: the notion that we'll win with depth. Problem with that is, the more moving parts in the system, the more chaotic it is. A team that utilizes depth has an advantage over the course of a long system, both in keeping players fresh, and filling in for injuries. But when the playoffs come around, having a great starting 5 and maybe a 6th man is better.


If he's not a starter, than I can only assume you have 20 centers better than him.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#193 » by Bruteque » Fri Jul 6, 2012 6:42 am

Rerisen wrote:
Steve Kyler: One Western Conference Exec asked "Why is everyone acting like Houston invented some mastermind solution... those guys getting matched"


I hope he's right.


He may be right, but it's one of those be careful what you wish for scenarios, because if the Bulls match Asik, that almost certainly means that he is Noah's replacement. The sad truth is that, now Rose's Rose Exception max has kicked in, the Bulls can't even afford $5m backups, let alone $8m, $10m, or $15m backups. The way the CBA structures Asik's contract, it is a pretty good contract to match if you intend to play him, but terrible if you intend to trade him unless you are looking to take on even more unwanted money.

I keep hearing this strategy of let's keep him while he is a "good deal" for two years, and when his contract turns into a flaming pile of poo in the third year, we will just trade him for a superstar. Yeah, trade a flaming pile of used poo and which truckload of assets, dare I ask? Oh yeah, Cat's pick, Mirotic, a late first, and a flaming pile of two-year used poo of $15m a year for Asik for Durant. They ought to jump at that. Let's get it done! Why didn't I think of that?

But, just for argument's sake, let's say the stars align and OKC has buyer's remorse on Harden's extension and is willing to salary dump him for that picks, Mirotic, and a flaming pile of used poo of $15m a year for Asik (pretty sure half a dozen team will be standing in line to offer more, but let's say there is not for argument's sake). So the stars have aligned and God Almighty smiles on us. What kind of situation do we find ourselves?

We will have Rose/Noah/Taj/Harden @ $60m and a decent Deng replacement @ $5.5m, exactly one bag of potato chips below the LT line (that's the LT line, not the cap). Okay, now for the moment of grace, do you think Reinsdorf will shell out $35m in salaries+LT to field a barebone aging supporting cast of damaged goods and pay $15m in Boozer amnesty money for that team? Would that LT be even higher because we are paying 3rd year repeater because we have had $5m guy backing up Noah?

That's if we get a small miracle and things go right. Without that small miracle we will be a bag of potato chips below the LT line with Rose/Noah/Taj, cheap Deng replacement, and a flaming pile of used poo, paying $15m Boozer amnesty and paying LT for a supporting cast of D-Leaguers.

I'm sorry, guys, but the money just doesn't add up.

- - -

What you have to remember that this won't be a Gortat 7-7-7-7 match. After the consent-required first year, a two-way player like Gortat at 7-7-7 is still a positive value contract. Once you have used up Asik's "good year" or two it becomes a net negative trading piece. To trade him we will probably send away assets the Bulls can't afford to send away. With Rose and Noah and Taj (or Boozer) on the books, we absotively posilutely need good players on rookie contracts.

There will be some flexibility if the Bulls match Asik as Noah's cheap(er) replacement and try to trade Noah for that "second option," but by the time Deng comes off the books and the Bulls can reasonably amnesty Boozer for that flexibility, guess what? That's the year you are paying Asik $15m, but at least you still have your rookie contract assets. Does anybody even have a single concrete scenario for matching Asik and keeping Noah that doesn't go along the line of keeping Asik for two "good years," then when his contract turns into a flaming pile of used poo, trade him straight up for LeBron James?

I know it sucks that the way the CBA structures Asik's contract, you can't match his "non-ridiculous" deal and have it be a positive trade value piece a year or two down the line, but it is what it is and management still needs to put aside their disgust and make the right call. Personally, I think they ought to either match Asik and trade Noah or decline to match. If they want to keep Noah, then as much as it sucks to let Asik walk for nothing, I just don't see any reasonable scenario they can match Asik and come out ahead.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#194 » by kulaz3000 » Fri Jul 6, 2012 6:53 am

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:
If he's not a starter, than I can only assume you have 20 centers better than him.


That's exactly the type of reply I was about to respond with, but being that you covered it, then there is not much more for me to say.... but I will.

Is he an all-star caliber center? No. But to say he can't be a starter in this league, and be one of the best, you don't see the lack of quality centers around the league.

As talented as Dwight is, one of the reasons why he is so effective is because he is free to roam and block shots on the defensive end without having to worry about defending his opponent. Say there were more quality centers around, he wouldn't be nearly as effective game in and game out, on both ends of the court.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#195 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:11 pm

As of now, 72 people (out of 114) voted that Bulls will match. That is 63.1%. Some feel Bulls should match & others feel they shouldn't - but 72 think that they will match.

As for me, I admit that I dont have a clue. My feeling? I dont think they will match. I think they will go with a cheaper option at back-up center.

The Front Office is really playing this close to the vest. I also dont know what they will decide on the 3 non-guarantees.

Will the Bulls make a trade? It does not look likely.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#196 » by Ron Harper » Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:16 pm

PJ Brown wrote:I'm wondering what people think about Asik in light of the now obviously insane free agent market. The logic of letting him go, aside from avoiding cap/tax risks in year three, is that the Bulls can use the MLE to bring in a guard/improve the offense, but if Lee is getting more than MLE, Roy is getting two years at MLE prices, etc, suddenly devoting the MLE to a guard doesn't look like a particularly smart investment---really, is it now possible that Kirk gets MLE money from somebody, for example? Does the market make you more likely to keep Asik, if it becomes impossible to get a guard who can make a difference?



Letting go of Asik isn't going to make us better any time soon. We get worse by letting Asik walk. I don't think I ever thought that by letting Asik walk we could get a SG that would have any sort of impact.

To me, Asik on that 5/5/12 deal or whatever it is will have a greater impact than any MLE guard Bulls would sign.

I think not matching is and has always been a financial decision. I don't think it has much to do about making your team better.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#197 » by Mech Engineer » Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:29 pm

Ron Harper wrote:Letting go of Asik isn't going to make us better any time soon. We get worse by letting Asik walk. I don't think I ever thought that by letting Asik walk we could get a SG that would have any sort of impact.

To me, Asik on that 5/5/12 deal or whatever it is will have a greater impact than any MLE guard Bulls would sign.

I think not matching is and has always been a financial decision. I don't think it has much to do about making your team better.



Agree. A young big guy who has potential to be a stud defensive player Vs a guy like Brandon Roy who has super-super-iffy knees and might be out in 2 weeks or even Lee who is an average player at the best. I think the Bulls are smart enough to not give up Asik to sign Lee/Roy. A wing player who has better offense than Brewer/Bogans could definitely be had for less than MLE.

Asik being signed or not is a financial decision and that too a financial decision which is not based on basketball financial requirements(like Tax, trade problems, total salaries) but based on just money.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#198 » by mjaye » Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:38 pm

Asik has value as an expiring.

2014-15 is the first year the repeater tax is implemented, in addition to the incremental tax in 2013-14.

If you haven't looked at how the increment and repeater tax changes luxury tax payments then please do so, it's a huge change.

Looking at Sham's site (http://www.ShamSports.com), the Lakers breakdown is as follows:

2011-12 Payroll: $85M (rounded down)
2011-12 Luxury tax threshold: $70M (also rounded down)

Luxury Tax owed under current system: $15M
Luxury Tax owed under incremental system: $28.75M
Luxury Tax owed under repeater system: $43.75M

The Lakers can probably swallow the amount and be ok. But what about a small-medium market team? Or any team outside of the three big markets for that matter? It largely becomes cost-prohibitive to go all-in unless the Front Office if VERY confident in their chances to make the playoffs/win a championship. And for the team that does try to go all-in and then have it backfire? ....

For those teams that are running up salaries right now, they will be trying like hell to shed salary if they're over the tax, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some major pieces moved due to luxury tax issues.

Having an expiring like Asik could potentially be very valuable to a team that went all in only to have it blow up in their face.
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#199 » by Bruteque » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:43 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:As of now, 72 people (out of 114) voted that Bulls will match. That is 63.1%. Some feel Bulls should match & others feel they shouldn't - but 72 think that they will match.

As for me, I admit that I dont have a clue. My feeling? I dont think they will match. I think they will go with a cheaper option at back-up center.

The Front Office is really playing this close to the vest. I also dont know what they will decide on the 3 non-guarantees.

Will the Bulls make a trade? It does not look likely.


Either that, or they will match with the intention of going with a cheaper option at starting center. However, I think the prevalent sentiment is to keep Noah, match Asik, use his two "good years," then when his contract turns into a flaming pile of used poo in the third year, trade the flaming pile of used poo with a pick for a superstar, because, dude, in the third year it's a huge expiring. Teams will just be lining up to trade us their superstars for a huge expiring!

:lol:
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Re: Asik Discussion (Part2) - POLL - Birthday 7/4 

Post#200 » by 1rage » Fri Jul 6, 2012 3:45 pm

yes it's so farfetched to think that some team who needs to clear cap space to lure in free agents won't have any incentive to take on his contract and give away something good for him.
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