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Lonzo Ball discussion thread

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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#181 » by Bulls2021 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:56 pm

madvillian wrote:
Senor Chang wrote:Lonzo doesn't have the quickest first step so improving his midrange will unlock the rest of his half-court game. With a solid mid-range jumper he will have more drives to the basket for easy layups. He will have more opportunity to rack up assists because he isn't just standing at the 3-point line. He will evolve from a 3 n D point guard to a true half-court point guard.


Eh, I don't really want him to try and turn into a mid range guy. I think he might consider adding a floater but that's really the only development I'd want from him. Maybe a little turnaround game but that is really hard to add, it took an incredibly talented scorer like Zach a few years to add it. He just needs to keep working on his handle that's what will open things up more for him in the halfcourt. He has a functional handle but it's not where he has it on a string like the elite ball handlers.

Agreed. His 3 point shot paired with an improved ability to finish at the rim is all he needs. Finishing at the rim, a floater like you said. I'd hate for his 3 ball to suffer because he is working on his midrange game.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#182 » by kodo » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:12 pm

We'd also ideally get rid of one of Demar or Zach if want Lonzo to be doing this. The reality is that our PG is named Demar Derozan. He gets the ball at half court, walks it up, initiates the offense, and will pass or score as needed. The 2021 NBA definition of a PG. Lavine as the other guard also does an immense amount of offensive initiation.

If Lonzo is now running the half court, we have a lot of wasted resources invested in Lavine & Derozan. Lonzo perfectly fits with how much of the offense is dominated by Derozan & Lavine, as does Caruso. Maybe long term as Demar heads towards retirement Lonzo takes over the half court more, but who knows where either guy will be in their next contract. But right now, Lonzo being a very high volume 42% 3P shooter is perfect for this team.

Statistically, Lonzo is matching the long range shooting of 2019 Klay Thompson (3.1 made 3s per game) on better accuracy (Lonzo 42%, Klay 40%) while playing All-NBA level defense and far better passing. You don't want to change anything about a 2-way gem like that.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#183 » by Jstock12 » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:51 pm

Jcool0 wrote:Lets get him that all-star nod.

Read on Twitter


Maybe someone needs to show this tweet to Vuc. Might motivate him on the defensive end. I'm sure it's gotta feel emasculating as a center when your point guard is a better rim-protector than you.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#184 » by sco » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:21 pm

Jstock12 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Lets get him that all-star nod.

Read on Twitter


Maybe someone needs to show this tweet to Vuc. Might motivate him on the defensive end. I'm sure it's gotta feel emasculating as a center when your point guard is a better rim-protector than you.

Honestly, I think it did. Vuc has been a better defender this year than last, IMO.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#185 » by sco » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:23 pm

:clap:
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#186 » by donaldtrump_00 » Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:30 pm

Bulls2021 wrote:
madvillian wrote:
Senor Chang wrote:Lonzo doesn't have the quickest first step so improving his midrange will unlock the rest of his half-court game. With a solid mid-range jumper he will have more drives to the basket for easy layups. He will have more opportunity to rack up assists because he isn't just standing at the 3-point line. He will evolve from a 3 n D point guard to a true half-court point guard.


Eh, I don't really want him to try and turn into a mid range guy. I think he might consider adding a floater but that's really the only development I'd want from him. Maybe a little turnaround game but that is really hard to add, it took an incredibly talented scorer like Zach a few years to add it. He just needs to keep working on his handle that's what will open things up more for him in the halfcourt. He has a functional handle but it's not where he has it on a string like the elite ball handlers.

Agreed. His 3 point shot paired with an improved ability to finish at the rim is all he needs. Finishing at the rim, a floater like you said. I'd hate for his 3 ball to suffer because he is working on his midrange game.



This is over blown I feel. He already should work on midrange because it's easier to make. Has nothing to do with developing. I'm sure he can do it already just doesn't get the greenlight to do it often. He plays so much better when he's not deffering to teammates.

His thing is becoming elite at it. That he is not right now. Kinda below average but shows signs. You can see he works on it. Floaters and midrange. He kinda gets to strong when running fast to the basket. Needs to get his release in order on layups.

His defaults are all things he should figure out with time. To not disturb the offense he sticks to his 3pt and passing. Most players don't know how to do that. He fits perfect. If you asked him to score he will get you 20 points because he pulls out his arsenal when needed.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#187 » by jordanwilliams6 » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:25 pm


A healthy AD would be absolutely perfect for this squad and a very real path to a championship. Unfortunately I don't think that player exists anymore. Every time I watch the Lakers, AD goes down once a game with a leg injury. He won't have a very long career IMO.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#188 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:23 am

jordanwilliams6 wrote:

A healthy AD would be absolutely perfect for this squad and a very real path to a championship. Unfortunately I don't think that player exists anymore. Every time I watch the Lakers, AD goes down once a game with a leg injury. He won't have a very long career IMO.


I have zero interest in AD ever playing for the Bulls. He only get more injuries and less athletic as time goes on. He is already a shell of what he used to be athletically.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#189 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:22 am

kodo wrote:We'd also ideally get rid of one of Demar or Zach if want Lonzo to be doing this. The reality is that our PG is named Demar Derozan. He gets the ball at half court, walks it up, initiates the offense, and will pass or score as needed. The 2021 NBA definition of a PG. Lavine as the other guard also does an immense amount of offensive initiation.

If Lonzo is now running the half court, we have a lot of wasted resources invested in Lavine & Derozan. Lonzo perfectly fits with how much of the offense is dominated by Derozan & Lavine, as does Caruso. Maybe long term as Demar heads towards retirement Lonzo takes over the half court more, but who knows where either guy will be in their next contract. But right now, Lonzo being a very high volume 42% 3P shooter is perfect for this team.

Statistically, Lonzo is matching the long range shooting of 2019 Klay Thompson (3.1 made 3s per game) on better accuracy (Lonzo 42%, Klay 40%) while playing All-NBA level defense and far better passing. You don't want to change anything about a 2-way gem like that.


This is dumb. Let me get this you don’t want Lonzo to develop new skills because they may overlap with DeRozan and LaVine. Two points against this absurd argument. 1) we stagger these guys a lot and Lonzo could operate in the half court like Zach and DeMar it would massive boost to our production when those guys are taking a rest of not playing in a game for whatever reason. 2) DeMar still has a LOT left in the tank, but he is 8 years older than Ball. It would be nice to have a player entering prime ready to step up as DeRozan declines. So yes I would to see Ball eventually become a 3 level scorer just like Zach. We have seen him step up big on Zach’s absence the last couple of games so we know he has the ability in him and he will work to unlock it.

Are the Nets worried about Kyrie having overlapping scoring skills with Harden and Durant? Hell NO and they shouldn’t be because it’s ridiculous.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#190 » by Senor Chang » Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:29 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
kodo wrote:We'd also ideally get rid of one of Demar or Zach if want Lonzo to be doing this. The reality is that our PG is named Demar Derozan. He gets the ball at half court, walks it up, initiates the offense, and will pass or score as needed. The 2021 NBA definition of a PG. Lavine as the other guard also does an immense amount of offensive initiation.

If Lonzo is now running the half court, we have a lot of wasted resources invested in Lavine & Derozan. Lonzo perfectly fits with how much of the offense is dominated by Derozan & Lavine, as does Caruso. Maybe long term as Demar heads towards retirement Lonzo takes over the half court more, but who knows where either guy will be in their next contract. But right now, Lonzo being a very high volume 42% 3P shooter is perfect for this team.

Statistically, Lonzo is matching the long range shooting of 2019 Klay Thompson (3.1 made 3s per game) on better accuracy (Lonzo 42%, Klay 40%) while playing All-NBA level defense and far better passing. You don't want to change anything about a 2-way gem like that.


This is dumb. Let me get this you don’t want Lonzo to develop new skills because they may overlap with DeRozan and LaVine. Two points against this absurd argument. 1) we stagger these guys a lot and Lonzo could operate in the half court like Zach and DeMar it would massive boost to our production when those guys are taking a rest of not playing in a game for whatever reason. 2) DeMar still has a LOT left in the tank, but he is 8 years older than Ball. It would be nice to have a player entering prime ready to step up as DeRozan declines. So yes I would to see Ball eventually become a 3 level scorer just like Zach. We have seen him step up big on Zach’s absence the last couple of games so we know he has the ability in him and he will work to unlock it.

Are the Nets worried about Kyrie having overlapping scoring skills with Harden and Durant? Hell NO and they shouldn’t be because it’s ridiculous.


i think it is silly to want Lonzo to stay in his lane for the rest of his career. The dude is only 24 and has shown that he will continually improve on certain aspects of his game incrementally. So whether you want to keep him down as a 3nD roleplayer forever i don't think Lonzo feels the same way. Dermar and Vuc are no spring chickens and it certainly would be nice to have a prime Lonzo able to take on some of the scoring load once Dermar and Vuc have totally fallen off. Right now i am content with him being a 3nD roleplayer but considering how much he has improved his shooting from his rookie year i am confident he will have a midrange game in his bag to use in the coming years.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#191 » by sco » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:03 pm

Senor Chang wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
kodo wrote:We'd also ideally get rid of one of Demar or Zach if want Lonzo to be doing this. The reality is that our PG is named Demar Derozan. He gets the ball at half court, walks it up, initiates the offense, and will pass or score as needed. The 2021 NBA definition of a PG. Lavine as the other guard also does an immense amount of offensive initiation.

If Lonzo is now running the half court, we have a lot of wasted resources invested in Lavine & Derozan. Lonzo perfectly fits with how much of the offense is dominated by Derozan & Lavine, as does Caruso. Maybe long term as Demar heads towards retirement Lonzo takes over the half court more, but who knows where either guy will be in their next contract. But right now, Lonzo being a very high volume 42% 3P shooter is perfect for this team.

Statistically, Lonzo is matching the long range shooting of 2019 Klay Thompson (3.1 made 3s per game) on better accuracy (Lonzo 42%, Klay 40%) while playing All-NBA level defense and far better passing. You don't want to change anything about a 2-way gem like that.


This is dumb. Let me get this you don’t want Lonzo to develop new skills because they may overlap with DeRozan and LaVine. Two points against this absurd argument. 1) we stagger these guys a lot and Lonzo could operate in the half court like Zach and DeMar it would massive boost to our production when those guys are taking a rest of not playing in a game for whatever reason. 2) DeMar still has a LOT left in the tank, but he is 8 years older than Ball. It would be nice to have a player entering prime ready to step up as DeRozan declines. So yes I would to see Ball eventually become a 3 level scorer just like Zach. We have seen him step up big on Zach’s absence the last couple of games so we know he has the ability in him and he will work to unlock it.

Are the Nets worried about Kyrie having overlapping scoring skills with Harden and Durant? Hell NO and they shouldn’t be because it’s ridiculous.


i think it is silly to want Lonzo to stay in his lane for the rest of his career. The dude is only 24 and has shown that he will continually improve on certain aspects of his game incrementally. So whether you want to keep him down as a 3nD roleplayer forever i don't think Lonzo feels the same way. Dermar and Vuc are no spring chickens and it certainly would be nice to have a prime Lonzo able to take on some of the scoring load once Dermar and Vuc have totally fallen off. Right now i am content with him being a 3nD roleplayer but considering how much he has improved his shooting from his rookie year i am confident he will have a midrange game in his bag to use in the coming years.

I agree. He should focus on his 3 ball and his defense. If he adds anything, it's just making open layups for fast breaks and open lanes.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#192 » by DuckIII » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:46 pm

The world has gone insane with advanced metrics obsession when you’ve gotten to the point that developing additional skills is considered a negative.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#193 » by Jstock12 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:00 pm

DuckIII wrote:The world has gone insane with advanced metrics obsession when you’ve gotten to the point that developing additional skills is considered a negative.


I guess it's kind of the reality of the league. Teams are surrounding their superstars with specialists and prefer role players who have some pronounced skills instead of somebody who is average (or worse) at a lot of things.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#194 » by MGB8 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:08 pm

I'm with the "let Lonzo develop" camp.

And I'm sure, btw, that he will - because it's up to him, and his drive - and not up to fans.

That doesn't mean that I want Lonzo to quickly try to "change his game" when he's playing. But over the course of the next few seasons, as he continues to develop his skills, to incorporate them in a disciplined way (and one thing that Lonzo definitely is is disciplined on the court - maybe too disciplined IMO)... absolutely.

I think people who are "anti" Lonzo broadening his skillset believe that it would be to the detriment of his more critical skills for his current role - and I don't buy that. More importantly, I think people suspect Lonzo would somehow recklessly and repeatedly do things that weren't effective for him during games - when there is literally nothing about how Lonzo plays that would suggest that's what he'd do. People are seriously underestimating Lonzo's basketball IQ and personal discipline. He's not going to start going ISO all the time while chucking mid-range jumpers - at least not until he's close to as effective at doing that as DeRozan is.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#195 » by Almost Retired » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:13 pm

OK Lonzo. You hear this? Don't seek to improve any aspect of your game. We simply have too much talent on the Bulls right now. If any of our players develop any more scoring abilities the NBA will declare us ineligible for being too talented. :lol:
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#196 » by Jcool0 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:14 pm

Are we sure he needs to add something and didn't just need the opportunity?

Last 5 games:

18.4 ppg (40.4% from 3 on 9.4 attempts)
5.6 rebounds
5.2 assists
2 steals
1.4 blocks
0.3 FTA in his first 24 games (13 games in a row without a FTA). Over last 5, 2.8 (career best) .
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#197 » by jsleesl28 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:38 pm

Jcool0 wrote:Are we sure he needs to add something and didn't just need the opportunity?

Last 5 games:

18.4 ppg (40.4% from 3 on 9.4 attempts)
5.6 rebounds
5.2 assists
2 steals
1.4 blocks
0.3 FTA in his first 24 games (13 games in a row without a FTA). Over last 5, 2.8 (career best) .


what impresses me is his defense. versatile enough to defend 1~4.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#198 » by dougthonus » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:43 pm

kodo wrote:We'd also ideally get rid of one of Demar or Zach if want Lonzo to be doing this. The reality is that our PG is named Demar Derozan. He gets the ball at half court, walks it up, initiates the offense, and will pass or score as needed. The 2021 NBA definition of a PG. Lavine as the other guard also does an immense amount of offensive initiation.

If Lonzo is now running the half court, we have a lot of wasted resources invested in Lavine & Derozan. Lonzo perfectly fits with how much of the offense is dominated by Derozan & Lavine, as does Caruso. Maybe long term as Demar heads towards retirement Lonzo takes over the half court more, but who knows where either guy will be in their next contract. But right now, Lonzo being a very high volume 42% 3P shooter is perfect for this team.

Statistically, Lonzo is matching the long range shooting of 2019 Klay Thompson (3.1 made 3s per game) on better accuracy (Lonzo 42%, Klay 40%) while playing All-NBA level defense and far better passing. You don't want to change anything about a 2-way gem like that.


I think there are actually tons of opportunities for Lonzo to develop and score and do whatever he wants to do alongside Zach and DeMar. In fact from a developmental perspective, the fact that Zach/DeMar will typically draw the best two perimeter defenders leaving Lonzo with the 3rd (or worse) perimeter defender on him should give him much more opportunity to develop against weaker defensive players than if one of those guys were removed and he had better defenders and the threat of double teams.

The simple fact is that Lonzo, to date, is a terrible finish at the rim and struggles to get past people. He isn't good at creating his own shot and it's unlikely he ever will be if he's 5 years into the league and isn't good at it yet.

Lonzo should certainly keep working on his weaknesses, but there's literally no reason to expect he's going to significantly improve on them to the point where he becomes an off the dribble creator and offensive initiator threat.

He's actually worked super hard to develop his game into the perfect team player. Very quick release, good three point shooter, range that goes beyond the three point line if in catch and shoot situations, strong rebounder, great defender, great transition player, great passer. Every utility skill imaginable is in his bag already.

If he can some how become a guy that generates shots off the dribble and can become a dominant initiator he would be LeBron James, but that simply doesn't seem to be in the cards here. This isn't like adding a three point shot, which likely any NBA player could be competent at with about three to four months with a shooting coach. Shot creation at an NBA level is the combination of athleticism and many skills all thrown together that most players can never do regardless of how long they work at it.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#199 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:45 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
jordanwilliams6 wrote:

A healthy AD would be absolutely perfect for this squad and a very real path to a championship. Unfortunately I don't think that player exists anymore. Every time I watch the Lakers, AD goes down once a game with a leg injury. He won't have a very long career IMO.


I have zero interest in AD ever playing for the Bulls. He only get more injuries and less athletic as time goes on. He is already a shell of what he used to be athletically.


If the Lakers want Vuc and DJJ, I'm doing that deal. But I'm not trading packages that include Ball due to the injury concerns and the massive contract.

Then I trade Pat/Coby/TBJ for Myles Turner. Now we are cooking.

Ball/Ayo
Lavine/Caruso
Derozen/McKinnie
AD/Green
Turner/Bradley

But that's off topic.

Ball is awesome. Worth the money.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#200 » by dougthonus » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:47 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
jordanwilliams6 wrote:A healthy AD would be absolutely perfect for this squad and a very real path to a championship. Unfortunately I don't think that player exists anymore. Every time I watch the Lakers, AD goes down once a game with a leg injury. He won't have a very long career IMO.


I have zero interest in AD ever playing for the Bulls. He only get more injuries and less athletic as time goes on. He is already a shell of what he used to be athletically.


If the Lakers want Vuc and DJJ, I'm doing that deal. But I'm not trading packages that include Ball due to the injury concerns and the massive contract.

Then I trade Pat/Coby/TBJ for Myles Turner. Now we are cooking.

Ball/Ayo
Lavine/Caruso
Derozen/McKinnie
AD/Green
Turner/Bradley

But that's off topic.

Ball is awesome. Worth the money.


There is no meaningful trade for Anthony Davis that the Bulls could make, but if the Lakers were asking for Ball + Vuc, that sure as hell wouldn't stop me, I'd take Davis and roll. Yeah, you have some injury risk, but your upside is so radically higher.

That said, that trade is laughable from an LA perspective and even more so without Ball. Which is fine of course, no reason to expect there to be a good trade there. The Bulls don't have a collection of assets to send out for a superstar really.

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