Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024

[dougthonus]

Fair.

But I disagree with the last paragraph of your post. The comments and actions from the current and former WNBA stars is the culturally significant part and by far the most bizarre part. Not what the morons in the Twitter verse say or everyone in the press rushing to earn by giving a take.

I think this is probably a bit of semantics in terms of what I said vs what you are saying, but I agree with this too.

I said the players reactions are also ramped up by the racial / society stuff, just less insane. To which I mean, it totally makes sense to me that a lot of the current superstar players, whom have every right to think they are much better than Clark, feel they are not getting attention because they are black and thus have some bitterness / jealousy going on. That doesn't strike me as weird at all, but rather a totally natural and understandable reaction. As I said in an earlier post, when it comes to players, I think there are two camps:

1: Holy crap, this is great for the league, more money! yay!
2: Holy crap, this is just another example of systemic racist BS, she doesn't deserve all this credit and hype, I'm going to kick her ass!

Plenty of people in each camp and also plenty in both at the same time. IMO.

[dougthonus]

The massive rivalry her vs the "just wait until she gets to the WNBA, she an overhyped mediocre player that people like because she's white" crowd would actually be great for the league if it were a discussion, but it isn't because so far she's getting her ass kicked.

I haven't watched a single minute of the WNBA, so I am hardly knowledgeable about the league, but I was surprised seeing the underlined from you solely based on random things that pop up on my twitter feed that indicate Clark is well underperforming relative to sky high expectations but is still playing ok ball. So I decided to do about 2 mins of digging and found out (as far as I can tell) that Clark is leading rookies in PPG, is 18th in the whole league in PPG, and this:

Over the weekend, Clark became just the second rookie in WNBA history to score 150-plus points, grab 50-plus rebounds and hand out 50-plus assists in her first 10 games as a pro.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/wnba/2024/06/04/wnba-rookie-power-rankings-caitlin-clark-angel-reese/73958573007/

So "getting her ass kicked" seems like a pretty slanted description of her play. And I think the rest of your commentary on this seems off base too.

If you have followed me much, then you know I'm an analytical guy. Her PER is sub 15 (below league average), her efficiency metrics are absolutely horrendous. She's piling up a lot of counting stats on god awful efficiency. That might turn around in 10 games, but I don't view that as playing well.

When you look at the rookies who had "chosen one" type hype coming into the W, a lot of them were getting MVP votes their rookie years: Delle Donne, Stewart, Wilson

Getting her ass kicked is definitely relative in this sense. Like I think Clark is going to be a good WNBA player for sure and maybe still a super elite one down the line, but for someone coming in with the hype of greatest college ball basketball player ever and doubling the viewership of the league, with Jordan like expectations (fair or otherwise), she's not playing well at all and way below the level of similarly tiered prospects did entering the league.

[jnrjr79]

I’ve never read a sports book. Never once. But if she ever writes a book about her rookie year someday, I’ll read it. This is kind of a weird way of putting it I guess, but Caitlin Clark is a victim of our anti-black, anti-gay history as a nation. Sure none of it was ever directed at her as a straight white girl from Iowa. But you can draw a straight line between that homophobia and racism straight to what she’s going through now.

She is reaping bigotry sowed by others.

I think it’s three things, if I had to guess, and they all work together to create the resentment. I’m not sure exactly what the proportions are if you did a pie chart, and obviously individuals will feel the resentment for different reasons. But my guess is, in addition to the two things you mentioned, supreme resentment at a rookie who has not accomplished anything in the WNBA immediately becoming its biggest star and darling. On top of that, she was netting much richer endorsement deals than established WNBA stars. You saw the same dynamic when Jalen Johnson drew a little attention this summer for saying stuff interpreted as being critical of Caleb Williams. Vets don’t like seeing guys who haven’t played yet being anointed as messiahs. So, in addition to the stickier social issues, there’s just a whole lot of “I’m gonna teach this hot s—t rookie a lesson.”

[jc23]

Race is a small factor in this; its primarily about her insane popularity compared to any female basketball player ever. Plenty of quality American straight white wnba players have come before her without 1/10 of the coverage or debate.

Either way these discussions will completely die if Caitlin doesn't get her game on track. You dont have to be loved by all to remain a draw but you do have to be good. Personally my interest has dwindled since the beginning of the season.

[jc23]

Refs are terrible in the wnba. Giving a player a tech for waving off a call is soft. Still, Reece needs face the music and speak to reporters. Its apart of the game.

[_txchilibowl_]

Refs are terrible in the wnba. Giving a player a tech for waving off a call is soft. Still, Reece needs face the music and speak to reporters. Its apart of the game.

Reese runs her mouth ALL game at the refs. The second technical was basically the ref saying "I've had enough". It was deserved.

I've watched all the Sky games and, to this point, her attitude has sucked. She comes off as overly sensitive and defiant, even towards her teammates. On several occasions I've noticed Marina Mabrey trying to communicate with Reese only to be shouted down on the court, given a nasty side eye, or whatever other form of disrespect Reese feels like dishing out in the moment. It's embarrassing for her and the team.

Couple that with the celebrating of the Clark foul and it becomes clear that Reese has a lot of maturing to do. Hopefully she'll get there but I have a sense that there's a good bit of entitlement to work through first. She needs to humble herself a little.

[jc23]

Refs are terrible in the wnba. Giving a player a tech for waving off a call is soft. Still, Reece needs face the music and speak to reporters. Its apart of the game.

Reese runs her mouth ALL game at the refs. The second technical was basically the ref saying "I've had enough". It was deserved.

I've watched all the Sky games and, to this point, her attitude has sucked. She comes off as overly sensitive and defiant, even towards her teammates. On several occasions I've noticed Marina Mabrey trying to communicate with Reese only to be shouted down on the court, given a nasty side eye, or whatever other form of disrespect Reese feels like dishing out in the moment. It's embarrassing for her and the team.

Couple that with the celebrating of the Clark foul and it becomes clear that Reese has a lot of maturing to do. Hopefully she'll get there but I have a sense that there's a good bit of entitlement to work through first. She needs to humble herself a little.

I only saw the espn clip. She needs to learn how to navigate sports when things are not going well for you.

[Wingy]

Just starting to learn this league, and it feels like they’re a long ways from contention, but seems like the Sky have a fun squad brewing.

[nomorezorro]

yeah there are some obvious flaws with the roster construction (badly need more shooting on the wings, frontcourt is too crowded, could probably use a traditional pg) but witherspoon seems like the ideal coach to wring as many wins as possible out of this team on the back of defense/hustle/transition

does anyone know how much roster turnover is typical from year-to-year for a rebuilding team like the sky? i know there have been some pretty significant changes each of the past two offseasons, and it looks like mabrey, cardoso, reese and lindsay allen are the only people under contract for next season. is it reasonable to hope they add a big name in free agency, or is that mostly restricted to legit contenders?

[SalmonsSuperfan]

The claim that "it's a black on black crime so nobody cares" is frankly just a stupid and weird thing to say. Nobody cares because it was a nothingburger foul.

Dude. She had her hand/forearm around her neck and decided to keep going with that “block out.”

I’m 100% certain I’d know if i had accidentally tangled my arm/hand on someone’s neck instead of their body and sure as hell wouldn’t keep going with it. Thomas was clearly annoyed by the rookie, and just said eff it, I don’t care…I’m a star.

nothingburger, really?

yeah it's a dirty play, but at least it's a basketball play. it would probably be a storyline in the NBA if it was part of a pattern of behavior of dirty flagrants (ie Draymond) otherwise it would mostly be ignored, right? i doubt we'd be using it as an analogy for racial strife.
maybe it is a pattern of behavior with her, I dunno, some journalist should write about it. they should actually talk about the sport, perhaps. I think these journalists think the WNBA is so boring that its only purpose is as an analogy for conflicts in society. I think sport is useful for that, but I think that's pretty funny that this is what Costas et al have to say about the sport. You think he's watching it? I don't think he watches any sport frankly.

[NZB2323]

It’s actually the opposite tho they all worked hard to get to the wnba as the women before them and CC is being hyped up as the next MJ/Lebron the game is bigger then her it was a lot of things in motion before she became the next big thing or should I say their making her into something she’s not sue it’s a lot of eyeballs on the wnba now more then ever but it was gonna happen within the next 2-3 years women sports have been on a horizon since 2017-2018 everything just aligned with CC getting super over in the women’s basketball world but it’s not all about her and that’s why these women are mad angry jealous envious etc they have every reason to be it seems are the red carpet has been rolled out to CC and they other women are the grinch that’s a wnba problem more then anything


I also don’t like the fact the her teammates haven’t protected her more and put there foot down tbh it’s because they too feel the same way as the other women who have fought tooth and nail to get to where they are today

You're describing crabs in a barrel.

They've been talking for years and years about how they were/are underpaid and the league stinks. Now Clark comes along and everybody is about to be well paid, but they can't handle it. Seemingly not enough to double their salaries, it also needs to be on their terms which is simply detached from reality of the sports/entertainment business.

It's bush league. I feel like male athletes have been saying "it's a business" since I was watching MJ and Barry Sanders as a kid. Probably they've been saying it since FA and the big money started to appear in MLB and then NFL and NBA and others.

Lebron got some pushback but for the most part he was absolutely embraced as the face of the league. It helped that he was obviously special right off the bat. If clark doesn't improve we'll see even more backlash, that backlash will be understandable but also completely against the long term interests of the entire league and all its players and all its future players.

Jordan got froze out of the all-star game as a rookie, and the Pistons definitely had animosity towards him.

I have mixed feelings about the Sky being the like the Bad Boys Pistons against Caitlin Clark. We complain that NBA players are too friendly, love how Joakim Noah hated the Heat, and now we have a black star that beat the Great White Hope in college and now is frustrated that the Great White Hope is getting all the attention. It’s very similar to Magic hating all the attention and praise that Bird was getting, and I love the competitive spirit, and can understand a black athlete being bitter that a white girl is getting all the attention from media, fans, and sponsors, but I’m not a big fan of the dirty plays.

[TheSuzerain]

I mean the Sky were seemingly borderline close to folding. They still don't have a practice facility.

Notoriety beats irrelevance in this case.

[madvillian]

I like A'Ja wilson after watching her highlights. She is smooth and has that bounce you don't see too often at her size in the women's game.

[Andi Obst]

yeah there are some obvious flaws with the roster construction (badly need more shooting on the wings, frontcourt is too crowded, could probably use a traditional pg) but witherspoon seems like the ideal coach to wring as many wins as possible out of this team on the back of defense/hustle/transition

does anyone know how much roster turnover is typical from year-to-year for a rebuilding team like the sky? i know there have been some pretty significant changes each of the past two offseasons, and it looks like mabrey, cardoso, reese and lindsay allen are the only people under contract for next season. is it reasonable to hope they add a big name in free agency, or is that mostly restricted to legit contenders?

The main issue is that the Sky simply aren't a serious organization yet. Angel Reese enters the league as one of the biggest names in the game and the Sky introduce her in some messed up high school gym. Kah gets traded tp Phoenix and immediately talks about how happy she is to be part of a professional organization that cares about its players.

Many other teams (LV, NY, Seattle, Atlanta, Phoenix...) have already made serious investments. The Sky are waaaaaay behind and it doesn't really seem like they're in a rush to catch up.

[TheSuzerain]

Chennedy Carter dominating again.

Reese is 5-14 but has 5 O boards and 5 steals so the math still works.

[Jeffster81]

The main issue is that the Sky simply aren't a serious organization yet. Angel Reese enters the league as one of the biggest names in the game and the Sky introduce her in some messed up high school gym. Kah gets traded tp Phoenix and immediately talks about how happy she is to be part of a professional organization that cares about its players.

That is the Sky's M.O. They've had Dupree (Dupree was the org first face of the organization), Della Donne and Fowler, Vandersloot and Quigley, etc and they all seem to happier after they left Chicago. That pisses me off as a Sky fan, the way Sky ownership treats the players. I guarantee you Reece will ask out as soon as possible and the Sky will trade her for a mediocre package.

[NZB2323]

The main issue is that the Sky simply aren't a serious organization yet. Angel Reese enters the league as one of the biggest names in the game and the Sky introduce her in some messed up high school gym. Kah gets traded tp Phoenix and immediately talks about how happy she is to be part of a professional organization that cares about its players.

That is the Sky's M.O. They've had Dupree (Dupree was the org first face of the organization), Della Donne and Fowler, Vandersloot and Quigley, etc and they all seem to happier after they left Chicago. That pisses me off as a Sky fan, the way Sky ownership treats the players. I guarantee you Reece will ask out as soon as possible and the Sky will trade her for a mediocre package.

We’ll see. I think the WNBA will see an increase in fan attention this year and maybe things will change.

https://lamag.com/sports/wnba-puts-up-big-television-numbers-again

[jc23]

Best game Caitlin and the Fever have played to date. rest and practice while playing the worst team in the league helped. Caitlin dropped 7 3's. Another thing the wnba needs to improve on is their commentators, they need more Mike Breen types because when Caitlin was on her heater they were not hype enough. I like Lobo tho.

Read on Twitter

[Charlesareed]

Race is a small factor in this; its primarily about her insane popularity compared to any female basketball player ever. Plenty of quality American straight white wnba players have come before her without 1/10 of the coverage or debate.

Either way these discussions will completely die if Caitlin doesn't get her game on track. You dont have to be loved by all to remain a draw but you do have to be good. Personally my interest has dwindled since the beginning of the season.

The race thing is one sided it’s mostly they white folks who have a issue with angel Reese basically because of the you can’t see me gesture she did to Catlin Clark 2 years ago it’s a shame things took a wrong turn like just let them play I guess CC is the new great white hope/hype she’s not even that good but she should be if she stop spamming 3s all game long plus they making it out to be all about her and not all the ladies it’s a recipe for disaster

[jc23]

I also think its time to make the quarters 12 minutes.