Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[Stratmaster]

Value is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not interested in keeping Giddey for more than like 10 million a year. If Coby would re-sign for under 20 mil a year I might be OK with it. Otherwise we should explore trading him (well, we should be exploring that with every player on our team already). I'd be quite surprised if Giddey has more value around the league than Coby.

Only way I'm really interested in keeping Giddey at all is for bench money.

If you think Coby is worth up to 19mil, then Giddey is worth 25. Coby's play this season is barely worth a rotation spot.

I really disagree, and would guess most would agree with me. Barely worth a rotation spot??? He's the third scoring option on the 10th best offense in the league, and while I'm guessing you may disagree, he's definitely a better defender than Giddey, while also being a capable rebounder and playmaker.

With a guy like Coby, he has multiple roles he could potentially play on a good team. He could be a 3rd or 4th scoring option at either guard spot, or a 6th man first bench scoring option at either guard spot. Giddey can't play off ball worth a damn because defenders wisely cheat off him heavily and then attack him effectively when he's on defense. So he has to control the ball, which he's pretty good at, but then is heavily exposed on defense.

Recently Coby has been downright horrible. His IQ is so bad he makes Zach Lavine look like a basketball genius on the court. Has been far worse than any other guards on the team defensively. When he isn't hot he removes any chance of success because he's never seen a shot he didn't like.

I expect he will someday play reasonable NBA quality basketball again, at which point he would be a competent 6th man.

Giddey still has quality starter upside. Coby doesn't.

[Infinity2152]

This season so far: Coby White per 36: 20 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebounds. 43% from the field, 38% from 3
Josh Giddey per 36: 16 pts, 9 assists, 8 rebounds. 44% from the field, 32% from 3.

Even if Coby is marginally better on defense (debatable), his season is not looking significantly better than Giddey's. He's not nearly the playmaker or rebounder. Especially when you factor in Giddey is two years younger and on a new team, where Coby has been here with this system his whole career.

Coby White age 22 (same age Giddey is now) per 36: 15pts, 4 assists, 4 rebounds. 44% from the field, 37% from 3. His defense was pretty trash then too.

[sco]

This season so far: Coby White per 36: 20 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebounds. 43% from the field, 38% from 3
Josh Giddey per 36: 16 pts, 9 assists, 8 rebounds. 44% from the field, 32% from 3.

Even if Coby is marginally better on defense (debatable), his season is not looking significantly better than Giddey's. He's not nearly the playmaker or rebounder. Especially when you factor in Giddey is two years younger and on a new team, where Coby has been here with this system his whole career.

Coby White age 22 (same age Giddey is now) per 36: 15pts, 4 assists, 4 rebounds. 44% from the field, 37% from 3. His defense was pretty trash then too.

Fair point, but feels like deciding between the toothless woman to the unibrow woman to buy a drink for at 3am in the bar.

[Dan Z]

Yeah. I find some solace in the fact that he's gotten better at keeping young guys on good deals. I do believe that he has upside and a deal around the MLE would be a fair deal, based on his play of late. That said, there's a lot more to the season, and he might show us more as he gets more familiar with our system/team coupled with a potential bigger role without Zach/Vuc if traded.

That’s where I’m at too.

Defensively he is competing lately and is looking like a bad defender but not a Trae young league worst bad defender.

He has to fix his shot. I’ve never seen a guy miss so many 3s and FTs short. Needs a Lonzo like change to be a keeper. Maybe he will trust Patton and get that coached up.

This is an example of how coming into the league early hurts some players. You make it to the league after your first year of college, you probably have a ton of bad habits and skills you need to learn, but you're already in the league. You're not changing your jump shot first, second year in the league. Skills like where to position your body in front a defender driving from the baseline, so many fundamentals you're going to learn being coached in college, you're trying to figure it out in a few minutes of live action. Only time you're probably really working on skills is the off season, and who's training you? Not Coach K or his staff. I think some young players are learning concepts in year 5 that they should have been working on 3 years ago in college. Like I seriously doubt much of the Bulls practice is spent on defensive fundamentals, even though we have a pretty young team. And very few vets to take players under their wing, teach them some things.

Would be great if the Bulls could find 5-8 retired vets, they don't need to have been great players, but students of the games, and just have them mentor these guys according to their needs. Some retirees would probably love the opportunity, wouldn't charge much, and there's a pro boosting their development. You know, show up at some of their workouts, help them with summer workouts, identifying NBA weakness, giving them insider tps and knowledge. Imagine if a player like Pat Bev retired, and came on to mentor our players on defense individually. I know they do it to some extent, but some of these young players really need more individual skill work.

Giddey wasn't your typical college kid coming into the NBA. He played a year of professional basketball in the NBL, but I don't know how good they are are developing players. Also, his dad was a professional basketball player and you'd think some of that would rub off on him.

[Infinity2152]

That’s where I’m at too.

Defensively he is competing lately and is looking like a bad defender but not a Trae young league worst bad defender.

He has to fix his shot. I’ve never seen a guy miss so many 3s and FTs short. Needs a Lonzo like change to be a keeper. Maybe he will trust Patton and get that coached up.

This is an example of how coming into the league early hurts some players. You make it to the league after your first year of college, you probably have a ton of bad habits and skills you need to learn, but you're already in the league. You're not changing your jump shot first, second year in the league. Skills like where to position your body in front a defender driving from the baseline, so many fundamentals you're going to learn being coached in college, you're trying to figure it out in a few minutes of live action. Only time you're probably really working on skills is the off season, and who's training you? Not Coach K or his staff. I think some young players are learning concepts in year 5 that they should have been working on 3 years ago in college. Like I seriously doubt much of the Bulls practice is spent on defensive fundamentals, even though we have a pretty young team. And very few vets to take players under their wing, teach them some things.

Would be great if the Bulls could find 5-8 retired vets, they don't need to have been great players, but students of the games, and just have them mentor these guys according to their needs. Some retirees would probably love the opportunity, wouldn't charge much, and there's a pro boosting their development. You know, show up at some of their workouts, help them with summer workouts, identifying NBA weakness, giving them insider tps and knowledge. Imagine if a player like Pat Bev retired, and came on to mentor our players on defense individually. I know they do it to some extent, but some of these young players really need more individual skill work.

Giddey wasn't your typical college kid coming into the NBA. He played a year of professional basketball in the NBL, but I don't know how good they are are developing players. Also, his dad was a professional basketball player and you'd think some of that would rub off on him.

I'm sure there are ways that you could be better going pro straight out of high school, playing a higher level of competition early. I'd also think that for a lot of players, moving to three different coaching staffs in years 17-20, then playing pro at 19 and 20, they could miss a lot of fundamental development, because the team focus is winning now, not developing players. Of course college teams want to win to, but there's much less emphasis on players being able to play immediately. A lot of NBA players have parents that were pro athletes at some level, that's not that special relative to the league. It's not like Giddey hasn't shown NBA skills, but you have to wonder who's been focusing on helping him become a better defensive player the last few years, for example.

[Infinity2152]

Fo all the knocks on Giddey, last year we were 23rd in pace and 22nd in 3pt attempts. This year, we swapped Caruso for Giddey, rest of the team basically the same besides Debo, we're 1st in pace and 2nd in 3pt attempts. Giddey's only averaging 27 minutes, a little less than Caruso last year, but seems to have a HUGE effect on our pace and 3pt shooting, and he shoots 1 less 3pt/gm than Caruso did last year in the same minutes.

Of course, Debo had a big effect on our pace, but we added a point guard and our pace and three point attempts skyrocketed, have to give him some of the credit.

[MrSparkle]

Giddey’s the 3rd best player on the team. Don’t think there’s much argument. But because all 3 top guys (actually 4) are defensive liabilities, they’re virtually unplayable together unless the shooting percentage is hot. Either way, a team playing Ayo, Phillips and Pat for 40 mpg isn’t making the playoffs either. We just have a low bar right now.

Matas needs to develop, and we need a top-4 pick. Cause I don’t like the odds of this farm developing into more than solid role-players.

[jordanwilliams6]

Fo all the knocks on Giddey, last year we were 23rd in pace and 22nd in 3pt attempts. This year, we swapped Caruso for Giddey, rest of the team basically the same besides Debo, we're 1st in pace and 2nd in 3pt attempts. Giddey's only averaging 27 minutes, a little less than Caruso last year, but seems to have a HUGE effect on our pace and 3pt shooting, and he shoots 1 less 3pt/gm than Caruso did last year in the same minutes.

Of course, Debo had a big effect on our pace, but we added a point guard and our pace and three point attempts skyrocketed, have to give him some of the credit.

Giddey only has a very small part to play in that and is under coaching instructions.

The directive team wide is now to play fast. Derozan was the complete opposite to this and play style was made to suit him. It’s more a coaching issue rather than individual player issue.

[League Circles]

Giddey’s the 3rd best player on the team. Don’t think there’s much argument. But because all 3 top guys (actually 4) are defensive liabilities, they’re virtually unplayable together unless the shooting percentage is hot. Either way, a team playing Ayo, Phillips and Pat for 40 mpg isn’t making the playoffs either. We just have a low bar right now.

Matas needs to develop, and we need a top-4 pick. Cause I don’t like the odds of this farm developing into more than solid role-players.

I really like Giddey's offensive game despite it's flaws, but I don't think he's particularly close to the 3rd best player on the team. He is an absolutely great playmaker and a solid rebounder and what I'd call a running scorer. But he's very bad at half the game, and defenses often give him a LOT of space which he doesn't fully capitalize on cause his shooting form and speed are very bad.

I'd say Zach, Ball and Coby are all clearly better than Giddey. I'd also say Ayo and Patrick and Smith are also, and Vuc is about the same as Giddey IMO. I weigh defense as at least 50% of player value so I understand some may disagree. Worth noting all of those guys are doing a lot of good things this year IMO, so I'm not even trashing Giddey. Best passer I've ever seen for the Bulls maybe. If we weren't already loaded with similar caliber players including several that can also play "point", I'm really hesitant to commit to more mediocrity with him long term at any dollar amount. I think he has value, but unless we move other guys I'd let him walk. He would always guarantee you have one really bad defender on the court. That really limits your ceiling IMO. More than anything else but a bad chucker like John Lucas III.

[Chi town]

Fo all the knocks on Giddey, last year we were 23rd in pace and 22nd in 3pt attempts. This year, we swapped Caruso for Giddey, rest of the team basically the same besides Debo, we're 1st in pace and 2nd in 3pt attempts. Giddey's only averaging 27 minutes, a little less than Caruso last year, but seems to have a HUGE effect on our pace and 3pt shooting, and he shoots 1 less 3pt/gm than Caruso did last year in the same minutes.

Of course, Debo had a big effect on our pace, but we added a point guard and our pace and three point attempts skyrocketed, have to give him some of the credit.

Giddey only has a very small part to play in that and is under coaching instructions.

The directive team wide is now to play fast. Derozan was the complete opposite to this and play style was made to suit him. It’s more a coaching issue rather than individual player issue.

Agreed. We’d be high pace without Giddey but prob not the top spot. He certainly helps.

[Dez]

Giddey’s the 3rd best player on the team. Don’t think there’s much argument. But because all 3 top guys (actually 4) are defensive liabilities, they’re virtually unplayable together unless the shooting percentage is hot. Either way, a team playing Ayo, Phillips and Pat for 40 mpg isn’t making the playoffs either. We just have a low bar right now.

Matas needs to develop, and we need a top-4 pick. Cause I don’t like the odds of this farm developing into more than solid role-players.

I really like Giddey's offensive game despite it's flaws, but I don't think he's particularly close to the 3rd best player on the team. He is an absolutely great playmaker and a solid rebounder and what I'd call a running scorer. But he's very bad at half the game, and defenses often give him a LOT of space which he doesn't fully capitalize on cause his shooting form and speed are very bad.

I'd say Zach, Ball and Coby are all clearly better than Giddey. I'd also say Ayo and Patrick and Smith are also, and Vuc is about the same as Giddey IMO. I weigh defense as at least 50% of player value so I understand some may disagree. Worth noting all of those guys are doing a lot of good things this year IMO, so I'm not even trashing Giddey. Best passer I've ever seen for the Bulls maybe. If we weren't already loaded with similar caliber players including several that can also play "point", I'm really hesitant to commit to more mediocrity with him long term at any dollar amount. I think he has value, but unless we move other guys I'd let him walk. He would always guarantee you have one really bad defender on the court. That really limits your ceiling IMO. More than anything else but a bad chucker like John Lucas III.

Defense is 50% of player value......then rates Coby as clearly better (he's not) despite him being IMO worse defensively than Giddey.

Zach is the only clearly better player.

Vuc is better this season if he maintains his offensive output.

Ball if is healthy is but that's not something to rely on.

Coby is way too streaky offensively, not good defensively and inconsistent playmaker which tops out at passable but more often below average.

Ayo of last season is better but Ayo of this season is hot mess of great and deplorable.

Giddey has been a mixed bag but outside of LaVine and Vucevic there isn't a Bulls player that's had stretches of play that he showed during his time at OKC.

[kulaz3000]

Watch on YouTube

[Infinity2152]

Fo all the knocks on Giddey, last year we were 23rd in pace and 22nd in 3pt attempts. This year, we swapped Caruso for Giddey, rest of the team basically the same besides Debo, we're 1st in pace and 2nd in 3pt attempts. Giddey's only averaging 27 minutes, a little less than Caruso last year, but seems to have a HUGE effect on our pace and 3pt shooting, and he shoots 1 less 3pt/gm than Caruso did last year in the same minutes.

Of course, Debo had a big effect on our pace, but we added a point guard and our pace and three point attempts skyrocketed, have to give him some of the credit.

Giddey only has a very small part to play in that and is under coaching instructions.

The directive team wide is now to play fast. Derozan was the complete opposite to this and play style was made to suit him. It’s more a coaching issue rather than individual player issue.

So you really think having the best passer we've had on this team since healthy Ball has little to do with the ABILITY to play with increased pace? They wanted to play with one of the slower paces in the league? You say Derozan was the opposite and the playstyle was slow to suit him. We replace him in the starting lineup. Our pace drastically increases. You can draw the conclusion that it was all Demar, and they were deliberately playing slow, which makes no sense because they have no post players and play small. They were NOT playing slow on purpose, IMO. The addition of Giddey PLUS the subtraction of Derozan has led to far faster pace. Leading the team by far in assists would indicate he has something to do with making this faster pace work.

This just seems like something to diminish Giddey's contributions. What would have to happen to acknowledge that Giddey has an effect, rather than just the coach suddenly decided to play 2020's basketball? When Giddey was not here and Coby White is the primary PG, which has been the case many times, playstyle was still slow, and the playstyle is not purely decided around Derozan's abilities and likes, I don't think. There are 15 players on the team. If Donovan ordered them to play faster last year, they would have still been ball-stopped by Derozan. Giddey doesn't ball stop, he facilitates.

[Guru]

I am a bigtime hold on Giddey.
1. His shooting will come around. You can tell he is popping his elbow on his shot and has very bad form. That will get fixed.
2. People talk about his dad and the style in Australia, that style taught him all the facilitation which he is great at. His dad was a long time pro that never made a three pointer.
3. His defense will come around as well but never be great. But it won't matter as much because he will be around better defenders and his size and rebounding will mitigate. His IQ will eventually help his D.
4. He didn't get an offseason with us which is important.

[DuckIII]

Fo all the knocks on Giddey, last year we were 23rd in pace and 22nd in 3pt attempts. This year, we swapped Caruso for Giddey, rest of the team basically the same besides Debo, we're 1st in pace and 2nd in 3pt attempts. Giddey's only averaging 27 minutes, a little less than Caruso last year, but seems to have a HUGE effect on our pace and 3pt shooting, and he shoots 1 less 3pt/gm than Caruso did last year in the same minutes.

Of course, Debo had a big effect on our pace, but we added a point guard and our pace and three point attempts skyrocketed, have to give him some of the credit.

Besides Debo? That’s kinda like saying your chocolate cake recipe got sweeter because you added a splash of Dr. Pepper to the mix (and also removed two cups of salt).

[Jcool0]

Coby has completely maxed out his ability and that guy is a bench scorer. It really tells you the state of this team that he is one of the leader of the Bulls. Giddy at lest still can get better as a player. If Zach and Vuc are traded he could have a 18/8/8 season. The only real issue is how much better can he get defensively and if he cant is that someone you can hide on a better put together team.

[Hangtime84]

Watch on YouTube

Definitely gave me ideas of him as teammate. He probably fits in really well with this group personality wise which is the focus of the interview.

Basketball side:
- Not enough afraid of contact gets his from his dad.
- Coaches son and basketball professional parents. Dad made sure he was team first pg instead of coaches son shoot first.
- Learned to move without the ball from Australia game.

[League Circles]

Worth remembering that "pace" is a minimum 50% noise stat. It's used to discuss offenses but of course is 50% composed of defensive pace (which you probably wouldn't want to be quick cause it means you're giving up easy buckets). And that's not even touching on the problems with definitions and estimates of what a "possession" is.

[Infinity2152]

Fo all the knocks on Giddey, last year we were 23rd in pace and 22nd in 3pt attempts. This year, we swapped Caruso for Giddey, rest of the team basically the same besides Debo, we're 1st in pace and 2nd in 3pt attempts. Giddey's only averaging 27 minutes, a little less than Caruso last year, but seems to have a HUGE effect on our pace and 3pt shooting, and he shoots 1 less 3pt/gm than Caruso did last year in the same minutes.

Of course, Debo had a big effect on our pace, but we added a point guard and our pace and three point attempts skyrocketed, have to give him some of the credit.

Besides Debo? That’s kinda like saying your chocolate cake recipe got sweeter because you added a splash of Dr. Pepper to the mix (and also removed two cups of salt).

Lets use your analogy. The fact that you removed the salt doesn't make the Dr. pepper any less sweet. If you added more Dr. Pepper (played Giddey more minutes, like close to Derozan), perhaps the taste would be even sweeter. Don't see how you compare 2 cups of salt vs a splash of Dr. Pepper, Giddey's playing 27 minutes to Derozan's 38 last year (36 the two previous years we were slow), that's over a cup of Dr. Pepper in your analogy, closer to a cup and a half. So, remove two cups of salt, replace with a cup and a half of Dr. pepper, and then say the Dr. Pepper barely influenced the taste. But the two cups of salt greatly influenced it.

The cake would be sweeter once you remove the salt, but those 2 cups have to be replaced with something. Derozan's 38 minutes don't just disappear. You replace them with something less sweet than the Dr. Pepper (another player not nearly so good at playmaking) cake is still not going to be as sweet as it is now.

For the record, the Kings pace last year was 98.83 last year without Derozan. It's 98.71 this year, or virtually the same, clearly the salt is not having much effect on them. What a difference playing with an actual PG can make.

[Indomitable]

This season so far: Coby White per 36: 20 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebounds. 43% from the field, 38% from 3
Josh Giddey per 36: 16 pts, 9 assists, 8 rebounds. 44% from the field, 32% from 3.

Even if Coby is marginally better on defense (debatable), his season is not looking significantly better than Giddey's. He's not nearly the playmaker or rebounder. Especially when you factor in Giddey is two years younger and on a new team, where Coby has been here with this system his whole career.

Coby White age 22 (same age Giddey is now) per 36: 15pts, 4 assists, 4 rebounds. 44% from the field, 37% from 3. His defense was pretty trash then too.

Fair point, but feels like deciding between the toothless woman to the unibrow woman to buy a drink for at 3am in the bar.

Unibrow obviously