Zach Lavine: Offered 4/80 from Kings update p26 Bulls Matched

[johnnyvann840]

Totally this. Having a good work ethic in nice don't get me wrong. But it only helps a little if you don't play smart or improve on weaknesses. Ben Gordon was a gym rat too. That never made him a better passer, rebounder, or defender. Kirk Hinrich was also a hard worker. But his game never took much of a jump from his rookie season

Lavine works hard, but he needs to start working smart too. As you just said, his gym habits don't mean much if he isnt grabbing tough rebounds , making smart decisions with the ball, have much better defensive awareness, etc

I think a lot of people here don't realize or remember how extremely raw Zach was coming out of HS and even at UCLA. It's the main reason why, despite his Milky Way Galaxy-class athleticism and smooth shot, he was "only" a four-star recruit, ranked 44th and 50th nationally on Rivals and ESPN, respectively, wasn't even the top UCLA recruit that year, started only one game for the Bruins, and was only the 14th pick in the draft. I mean, we're talking about DeAndre Jordan levels of rawness coming out of college.

Being a gym rat has brought him this far. It's the reason why many Wolves fans still prefer him over Wiggins, and look at the contract extension Thibs gave to that guy.

If you want an example of similarly raw player with super athleticism, a sweet shooting stroke, and seemingly limitless potential who has yet to pan out or even show glimpses of that potential, look at Ben McLemore. Zach is so much further along than that guy.

I hope the people that were mad the Bulls didn't draft Porter Jr. aren't the same people who were mad about the Bulls matching the offer sheet. Guys like Zach don't come along very often and definitely not for the Bulls. Zach's not great right now, but his potential for greatness is quite apparent, and the strides he's made so far since being that raw prospect out of UCLA makes him worthy of keeping around.

Meh- Not buying this at all. Lavine grew up playing basketball. His dad was in the NFL. His mother was a standout softball player. This is not some foreign kid who picked up the game at 15 or something. He was the #1 ranked high school player in the state of Washington. His father was his coach when he was younger. He's been doing drills in his backyard since he was 6 years old. He's had every training benefit and then some. FFS, this will be his 5th (FIFTH) NBA season. The excuses for this kid have gotten more and more ridiculous.

[bad knees]

So Zach DID get more than Aaron Gordon or not?
I think he did - 80 vs 76.....

>>Gordon’s new deal originally was reported as being worth a total of $84 million, not the $76 million in base salary.
Team officials would not disclose figures and would not comment for this story.

>>The Bulls on Sunday formally matched the four-year, $80 million offer sheet LaVine signed with the Sacramento Kings, a move that was expected almost from the instant the restricted free agent got the offer.

and he signed this Monday or yesterday and no fanfare or pics?
I mean they posted pics of everyone else inking stuff......
This is our prize FA - make with the pics Bulls!

If he got more than AG, that is an egregious error . Heinous. Criminal. Aaron Gordon is so much better than Lavine.

According to Spotrac, Gordon's contract is 4/76 guaranteed. He also has $1 million in annual incentives. If he meets those incentives (which Spotrac does not define), then he will earn 4/80. Whether this means his contract is bigger or smaller than LaVine's 4/78 guaranteed depends on the specifics regarding the incentives, I would think.

[FecesOfDeath]

Meh- Not buying this at all. Lavine grew up playing basketball. His dad was in the NFL. His mother was a standout softball player. This is not some foreign kid who picked up the game at 15 or something. He was the #1 ranked high school player in the state of Washington. His father was his coach when he was younger. He's been doing drills in his backyard since he was 6 years old. He's had every training benefit and then some. FFS, this will be his 5th (FIFTH) NBA season. The excuses for this kid have gotten more and more ridiculous.

Still only ranked 44th nationally, and it's not like he was getting scholarship offers from Duke, UK, Kansas, etc. I don't see Michael Jordan's kids playing in the NBA.

Hey, the Clippers matched the $10+ million per year (about 17% of Clippers' payroll) offer sheet DeAndre Jordan signed with the Warriors back in 2011, and he was arguably less further along back then than where Zach is right now.

[Habs72]

Totally this. Having a good work ethic in nice don't get me wrong. But it only helps a little if you don't play smart or improve on weaknesses. Ben Gordon was a gym rat too. That never made him a better passer, rebounder, or defender. Kirk Hinrich was also a hard worker. But his game never took much of a jump from his rookie season

Lavine works hard, but he needs to start working smart too. As you just said, his gym habits don't mean much if he isnt grabbing tough rebounds , making smart decisions with the ball, have much better defensive awareness, etc

I think a lot of people here don't realize or remember how extremely raw Zach was coming out of HS and even at UCLA. It's the main reason why, despite his Milky Way Galaxy-class athleticism and smooth shot, he was "only" a four-star recruit, ranked 44th and 50th nationally on Rivals and ESPN, respectively, wasn't even the top UCLA recruit that year, started only one game for the Bruins, and was only the 14th pick in the draft. I mean, we're talking about DeAndre Jordan levels of rawness coming out of college.

Being a gym rat has brought him this far. It's the reason why many Wolves fans still prefer him over Wiggins, and look at the contract extension Thibs gave to that guy.

If you want an example of similarly raw player with super athleticism, a sweet shooting stroke, and seemingly limitless potential who has yet to pan out or even show glimpses of that potential, look at Ben McLemore. Zach is so much further along than that guy.

I hope the people that were mad the Bulls didn't draft Porter Jr. aren't the same people who were mad about the Bulls matching the offer sheet. Guys like Zach don't come along very often and definitely not for the Bulls. Zach's not great right now, but his potential for greatness is quite apparent, and the strides he's made so far since being that raw prospect out of UCLA makes him worthy of keeping around.

Meh- Not buying this at all. Lavine grew up playing basketball. His dad was in the NFL. His mother was a standout softball player. This is not some foreign kid who picked up the game at 15 or something. He was the #1 ranked high school player in the state of Washington. His father was his coach when he was younger. He's been doing drills in his backyard since he was 6 years old. He's had every training benefit and then some. FFS, this will be his 5th (FIFTH) NBA season. The excuses for this kid have gotten more and more ridiculous.

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

[johnnyvann840]

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

[SensiBull]

The title of this thread might just as well read:

GarPsx said spends fifth of family estate on Red Bugatti and cross country road trip with girl half his age.

Is one 'betraying the family' to point out the oddity of this?

If anyone is 'betraying the family' or acting like a 'fan of some other team'....

[Dez]

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 seasons.

[kulaz3000]

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 seasons.

He has played 2 full season, 1 half season before going down with an ACL injury, and 30 games last season - that's well short of 5 seasons, considering last season was a scratch since he had just came back from such a serious injury.

[johnnyvann840]

I said this will be his 5th season. Is this not going to be Zach Lavine's 5th season in the NBA? He's played the equivalent of 3 seasons. 6600 minutes. 2 Full and 2 half season essentially. But players miss games. The fact is that this will indeed be his 5th season in the NBA. Period. End of story.

Let's put it this way...officially, this is considered his 5th season in the league. He's played 4.. two of which he's missed many games in.

[johnnyvann840]

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 seasons.

Who said he played 5 seasons? Show me where anybody, including me has said he played 5 seasons. I said this is his 5th season and it is. He's played over 6600 minutes in the league.

Jesus. It's gotten ridiculous the lengths some people will go to just to make excuses for Lavine sucking after over 6600 freaking minutes. He's too raw... he just needs to get healthy.. he is only 23. I don't care. He's entering his 5th season. He's missed games in two of his four seasons, but this is his 5th season.

[SHO'NUFF]

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 years in the NBA. This is going to be his 5th season coming up. Injuries do stunt your NBA development. 24 games last year and 47 games prior. Players get better in the off season.

This is going to be his 5th year. He's healthy. He's had a full off-season to get in shape. He never got a full season to practice Hoi-Ball basketball. This time he wont just be thrown into the mix for 24 games after out for a year...he'll be apart of it from the very beginning.

This upcoming season is where Zach should be judged.

[kulaz3000]

I said this will be his 5th season. Is this not going to be Zach Lavine's 5th season in the NBA? He's played the equivalent of 3 seasons. 6600 minutes. 2 Full and 2 half season essentially. But players miss games. The fact is that this will indeed be his 5th season in the NBA. Period. End of story.

Let's put it this way...officially, this is considered his 5th season in the league. He's played 4.. two of which he's missed many games in.

I get it, but this comment by you confused some of us obviously:

This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA....

You said he was going to his 5th season which is true, but then right after said he played 5 years in the NBA which is clearly not true.

The intention of your comment makes sense.

[johnnyvann840]

It has been noted in scouting reports that Zach was a later bloomer and a raw product coming from high school flying under the radar most of his high school until he got into top 50 in his senior year. So what you dont buy?

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 years in the NBA. This is going to be his 5th season coming up. Injuries do stunt your NBA development. 24 games last year and 47 games prior. Players get better in the off season.

This is going to be his 5th year. He's healthy. He's had a full off-season to get in shape. He never got a full season to practice Hoi-Ball basketball. This time he wont just be thrown into the mix for 24 games after out for a year...he'll be apart of it from the very beginning.

This upcoming season is where Zach should be judged.

I should have worded it differently. I said "how many players have played 5 years and people are saying .....? ". In the sentence just before it, I clearly said this is HIS (Lavine's) 5th season.

My apologies... the way I wrote that I can see how it was misconstrued.

All I care about is this upcoming season. So, yeah, this is where he should be judged, but he has already played over 6600 minutes in the NBA. So, we've had a pretty good look at what he is. Just the fact that his impact numbers have been very consistent over the last four seasons says a lot. People expecting to see a completely different player than what somebody has been for over 6600 minutes in the league is likely to be disappointed. I'll be thrilled if he can just not HURT the team
and be net neutral.

[johnnyvann840]

I said this will be his 5th season. Is this not going to be Zach Lavine's 5th season in the NBA? He's played the equivalent of 3 seasons. 6600 minutes. 2 Full and 2 half season essentially. But players miss games. The fact is that this will indeed be his 5th season in the NBA. Period. End of story.

Let's put it this way...officially, this is considered his 5th season in the league. He's played 4.. two of which he's missed many games in.

I get it, but this comment by you confused some of us obviously:

This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA....

You said he was going to his 5th season which is true, but then right after said he played 5 years in the NBA which is clearly not true.

The intention of your comment makes sense.

You're right. My mistake. I see that. I apologized for getting all worked up about it. Everybody is just so combative if you say anything about Lavine right now. Good or bad. He's about as polarizing as a player can be right now.

[Habs72]

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 years in the NBA. This is going to be his 5th season coming up. Injuries do stunt your NBA development. 24 games last year and 47 games prior. Players get better in the off season.

This is going to be his 5th year. He's healthy. He's had a full off-season to get in shape. He never got a full season to practice Hoi-Ball basketball. This time he wont just be thrown into the mix for 24 games after out for a year...he'll be apart of it from the very beginning.

This upcoming season is where Zach should be judged.

I should have worded it differently. I said "how many players have played 5 years and people are saying .....? ". In the sentence just before it, I clearly said this is HIS (Lavine's) 5th season.

My apologies... the way I wrote that I can see how it was misconstrued.

All I care about is this upcoming season. So, yeah, this is where he should be judged, but he has already played over 6600 minutes in the NBA. So, we've had a pretty good look at what he is. Just the fact that his impact numbers have been very consistent over the last four seasons says a lot. People expecting to see a completely different player than what somebody has been for over 6600 minutes in the league is likely to be disappointed. I'll be thrilled if he can just not HURT the team
and be net neutral.

Yes lets see how he will be doing next season as i see no reason to beat a horse more that is almost dead.

[DanTown8587]

The problem with "Zach will get better" is that is problems in this league are not skill based. You don't look at Lavine and say that either he's in poor physical shape, he's a poor shooter, or he has poor on-ball skills. There is literally nothing a gym will teach him about basketball.

People say the same things about dozens of guys and most guys like Lavine who ever find success (i.e Gerald Green, Shaun Livingston, etc) are guys who have to completely reinvent how they play and learn how to be a role player. The exact opposite of that is getting signed to a 4/78 deal and becoming a starter. We can all sit here and talk about how Lavine needs to change his game but if you asked him today, he'd tell you that doing what he did got him a scholarship to UCLA, made him a lottery pick, and now is a guy with a major contract.

[kulaz3000]

The problem with "Zach will get better" is that is problems in this league are not skill based. You don't look at Lavine and say that either he's in poor physical shape, he's a poor shooter, or he has poor on-ball skills. There is literally nothing a gym will teach him about basketball.

People say the same things about dozens of guys and most guys like Lavine who ever find success (i.e Gerald Green, Shaun Livingston, etc) are guys who have to completely reinvent how they play and learn how to be a role player. The exact opposite of that is getting signed to a 4/78 deal and becoming a starter. We can all sit here and talk about how Lavine needs to change his game but if you asked him today, he'd tell you that doing what he did got him a scholarship to UCLA, made him a lottery pick, and now is a guy with a major contract.

I read this post 3 straight times, and I still don't really understand what you're trying to say without having to assume and guess certain things.

I say this because I feel I know what you're saying, and I really want to respond, but I'm not 100% certain as to what you're really saying.

Do I just need English lessons? Am I having a blonde moment?

[BR0D1E86]

The problem with "Zach will get better" is that is problems in this league are not skill based. You don't look at Lavine and say that either he's in poor physical shape, he's a poor shooter, or he has poor on-ball skills. There is literally nothing a gym will teach him about basketball.

People say the same things about dozens of guys and most guys like Lavine who ever find success (i.e Gerald Green, Shaun Livingston, etc) are guys who have to completely reinvent how they play and learn how to be a role player. The exact opposite of that is getting signed to a 4/78 deal and becoming a starter. We can all sit here and talk about how Lavine needs to change his game but if you asked him today, he'd tell you that doing what he did got him a scholarship to UCLA, made him a lottery pick, and now is a guy with a major contract.

I read this post 3 straight times, and I still don't really understand what you're trying to say without having to assume and guess certain things.

I say this because I feel I know what you're saying, and I really want to respond, but I'm not 100% certain as to what you're really saying.

Do I just need English lessons? Am I having a blonde moment?

I think he's saying (and if so, I agree) that Lavine's problems are more between the ears than anything. He can shoot. He can dribble. He's athletic. Yet he turns those plus skills into being a negative player by his mind-numbing (my phrasing, obv) lack of awareness. Lack of basic defensive awareness and lack of any semblance of how to function within a 5 man offensive unit.

[SHO'NUFF]

I don't buy that the reason Zach has not been good is because he is so raw and just needs more time. This is his 5th season in the NBA. How many players play for 5 years in the NBA and people are still saying "well, he was so raw coming out of high school" that is why he hasn't performed up to expectations in the league yet? If you want to blame his injury for stunting his NBA development, OK. But this excuse that a player who will be 24 by the end of this season, who is in his 5th NBA season is still too raw, is just bogus, IMO. Hell, the average CAREER in the NBA for a player lasts 4.8 years.

He hasn't played 5 years in the NBA. This is going to be his 5th season coming up. Injuries do stunt your NBA development. 24 games last year and 47 games prior. Players get better in the off season.

This is going to be his 5th year. He's healthy. He's had a full off-season to get in shape. He never got a full season to practice Hoi-Ball basketball. This time he wont just be thrown into the mix for 24 games after out for a year...he'll be apart of it from the very beginning.

This upcoming season is where Zach should be judged.

I should have worded it differently. I said "how many players have played 5 years and people are saying .....? ". In the sentence just before it, I clearly said this is HIS (Lavine's) 5th season.

My apologies... the way I wrote that I can see how it was misconstrued.

All I care about is this upcoming season. So, yeah, this is where he should be judged, but he has already played over 6600 minutes in the NBA. So, we've had a pretty good look at what he is. Just the fact that his impact numbers have been very consistent over the last four seasons says a lot. People expecting to see a completely different player than what somebody has been for over 6600 minutes in the league is likely to be disappointed. I'll be thrilled if he can just not HURT the team
and be net neutral.

I agree.....i just personally feel like his situation in Minnesota wasn't favored to his game. Thibs-Ball isn't for everyone. Not trying to make excuses for him but being in the right situation matters for certain types of players. Harden and Nash thrived under D'antoni....not saying they wouldn't have been good elsewhere but the system was catered to their game.

People are expecting Lavine to play a one-way game.....if he does that...the coach will get on his case as will the players. If he's wise & mature, he'll listen. It seems like he's got a very good relationship with the rest of the team & he's never been a cancerous player when it comes to attitude.

Because of his youth and athletic ability there is still potential there....the ONE game vs the Wolves was great to see....he wanted to prove something to his old team. This year he has something to prove as well....his worth to the fans and organization. He's not a hard headed Tyrus Thomas type player.....he listens.

Now we just have to wait and see.

[DanTown8587]

The problem with "Zach will get better" is that is problems in this league are not skill based. You don't look at Lavine and say that either he's in poor physical shape, he's a poor shooter, or he has poor on-ball skills. There is literally nothing a gym will teach him about basketball.

People say the same things about dozens of guys and most guys like Lavine who ever find success (i.e Gerald Green, Shaun Livingston, etc) are guys who have to completely reinvent how they play and learn how to be a role player. The exact opposite of that is getting signed to a 4/78 deal and becoming a starter. We can all sit here and talk about how Lavine needs to change his game but if you asked him today, he'd tell you that doing what he did got him a scholarship to UCLA, made him a lottery pick, and now is a guy with a major contract.

I read this post 3 straight times, and I still don't really understand what you're trying to say without having to assume and guess certain things.

I say this because I feel I know what you're saying, and I really want to respond, but I'm not 100% certain as to what you're really saying.

Do I just need English lessons? Am I having a blonde moment?

There is a never ending line of people saying Zach Lavine will get better. We haven't seen it yet and he's shown high levels of skills so maybe his problem isn't skill related? All the guys who were similarly hyped to Lavine that eventually became useful players were NOT useful in a high usage+star player type setting but instead were useful bench players who took their skills+athleticism and became role players.

Zach Lavine's problems are style of play and how he THINKS about basketball. That is BY FAR the hardest thing for a guy to change in the league and most guys who change after being "the next big thing" that are guys who have had failure and had to realize the league didn't want them as stars but wanted them as role players.

I just don't see how Lavine solves his inability to think through the game while playing it after signing a major contract.