Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[coldfish]

I find it interesting that in a team that has had coby white and zach lavine as primary ballhandlers someone chooses to complain that ”lauri doesn’t move the ball” and that is a problem for the bulls ”motion offense”.

Lauri has a total of zero assists diring the 3 game win streak. Im not sure how that’s even possible.

Regardless, Lauri has 26 assists all season. Zach had 13 .... yesterday. Bringing zach up here is a completely inappropriate whataboutism.

[DuckIII]

I find it interesting that in a team that has had coby white and zach lavine as primary ballhandlers someone chooses to complain that ”lauri doesn’t move the ball” and that is a problem for the bulls ”motion offense”.

Problems can co-exist, and our back-court has has their share of criticism. I love Lauri, but at one point he had 30 turnovers to 20 assists (re asg break i guess...), so anyway you look at it, for his career he needs to get better with assisting his team-mates. Not Thad level great, but better.

Plus the Lavine comment is so 19-20.

[DorO]

Lauri has had more TOs than assists in every season he has played so far. That’s not very good and it is a fact.

[CobyWhite0]

I find it interesting that in a team that has had coby white and zach lavine as primary ballhandlers someone chooses to complain that ”lauri doesn’t move the ball” and that is a problem for the bulls ”motion offense”.

Lauri has a total of zero assists diring the 3 game win streak. Im not sure how that’s even possible.

Regardless, Lauri has 26 assists all season. Zach had 13 .... yesterday. Bringing zach up here is a completely inappropriate whataboutism.

I had to look it up, but in 2005 Eddy Curry went 5 straight games without an assist. And he did it three times that season.

Speaking of Lauri, who's the present day GM version of Isaiah Thomas?

[chefo]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

[coldfish]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

[sco]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

On the assists thing, I'm not bashing Lauri for that. His main role is to score. He is not a primary ball handler and I don't recall seeing many folks claim he's a chucker.

As for not running the offense through him. Again, I'm a bit meh on that point. He's mainly a perimeter player with some cutting...like many forwards. He's not a PG and not C.

[Pentele]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

To be fair, you yourself did mention that "Lauri has a total of zero assists during the 3 game win streak. I'm not sure how that’s even possible." I think it is perfectly valid to say that it might have something to do with the limited touches, and that it might have little to none importance during that particular stretch of games if Lauri plays the way he did last night. But who I am to say, I am no basketball expert. Let us hear again from Nick Nurse, perhaps he has something relevant to say.

"Markkanen was unbelievable, and he played 18 minutes. He was unbelievable. Every time he touched the ball something good happened. And every time we made a mistake he made us pay, and he is only out there for 18 minutes."

Huh, so I guess it is possible to have a huge positive impact with your touches even if you do not notch any assists. Thank you Nick Nurse!

I believe the game Nick refers to took place during that three game span. Perhaps chefo is right after all, perhaps one should not try so hard looking things to fault when the going is good. Even unbelievably good, at times, if we are to believe Nick.

[coldfish]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

On the assists thing, I'm not bashing Lauri for that. His main role is to score. He is not a primary ball handler and I don't recall seeing many folks claim he's a chucker.

As for not running the offense through him. Again, I'm a bit meh on that point. He's mainly a perimeter player with some cutting...like many forwards. He's not a PG and not C.

As I have said before, he has a Kyle korver type role. He drives a little more but isn’t as good of a shooter but it’s roughly similar. A KK definitely has value but as a 5th or 6th man (like Lauri is now) and you don’t pay them big bucks. Lauri would be a value to the team in his current role making 12m per year but we all know that isn’t going to happen.

[coldfish]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

To be fair, you yourself did mention that "Lauri has a total of zero assists during the 3 game win streak. I'm not sure how that’s even possible." I think it is perfectly valid to say that it might have something to do with the limited touches, and that it might have little to none importance during that particular stretch of games if Lauri plays the way he did last night. But who I am to say, I am no basketball expert. Let us hear again from Nick Nurse, perhaps he has something relevant to say.

"Markkanen was unbelievable, and he played 18 minutes. He was unbelievable. Every time he touched the ball something good happened. And every time we made a mistake he made us pay, and he is only out there for 18 minutes."

Huh, so I guess it is possible to have a huge positive impact with your touches even if you do not notch any assists. Thank you Nick Nurse!

I believe the game Nick refers to took place during that three game span. Perhaps chefo is right after all, perhaps one should not try so hard looking things to fault when the going is good. Even unbelievably good, at times, if we are to believe Nick.

Hell, you can just look at the post game thread where everyone including myself complimented Lauri on his play. No one is disagreeing about how he played.

The issue about his complete lack of passing is a longer term issue that affects a lot of things including his role and touches. The three game sample is just an example of that. It’s really had to be on a team like Chicago with as many touches as Lauri and only have 26 assists for the entire year. As Donovan said to Lauri “what do you do to help your teammates?” while we are quoting coaches.

[edededtut]

I was talking about ”moving the ball” in the context of ”motion offense”. Dribbling and then dribbling some more even if it ends up in an assist after a PnR for example has nothing to do with ”moving the ball”. It can be efficient and winning basketball though, and zach has really improved in that area.

Also, if you think whether someone is ”moving the ball” or not can be looked up from the assists column, I dont know what to say..

Lauri isn’t a good passer, and has a lot to improve in that area. But only gafford and kornet have lower average seconds per touch in the whole team this season (of the players that have been part of the roster). Either he shoots or he passes the ball quickly.

[Pentele]

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

To be fair, you yourself did mention that "Lauri has a total of zero assists during the 3 game win streak. I'm not sure how that’s even possible." I think it is perfectly valid to say that it might have something to do with the limited touches, and that it might have little to none importance during that particular stretch of games if Lauri plays the way he did last night. But who I am to say, I am no basketball expert. Let us hear again from Nick Nurse, perhaps he has something relevant to say.

"Markkanen was unbelievable, and he played 18 minutes. He was unbelievable. Every time he touched the ball something good happened. And every time we made a mistake he made us pay, and he is only out there for 18 minutes."

Huh, so I guess it is possible to have a huge positive impact with your touches even if you do not notch any assists. Thank you Nick Nurse!

I believe the game Nick refers to took place during that three game span. Perhaps chefo is right after all, perhaps one should not try so hard looking things to fault when the going is good. Even unbelievably good, at times, if we are to believe Nick.

Hell, you can just look at the post game thread where everyone including myself complimented Lauri on his play. No one is disagreeing about how he played.

The issue about his complete lack of passing is a longer term issue that affects a lot of things including his role and touches. The three game sample is just an example of that. It’s really had to be on a team like Chicago with as many touches as Lauri and only have 26 assists for the entire year. As Donovan said to Lauri “what do you do to help your teammates?” while we are quoting coaches.

I have not denied that everyone including yourself complimented Lauri on his play. I watched the game, I read both game threads, and was pleased that people were able to apreciate a good performance from Lauri despite their evident misgivings. But what does that have to do with the current discussion? Nothing that I have said is premised in any way or fashion on people not complimenting Lauri's good game, or agreeing/disagreeing that it was a good game. To repeat, you did ask "how is that even possible?" and I believe chefo answered you while moving the discussion further by drawing attention to the limited number of touches, and what one can legitimately expect based on that number. But apparently that was somehow wrong thing to do. Was your question even meant to be answered?

[coldfish]

I was talking about ”moving the ball” in the context of ”motion offense”. Dribbling and then dribbling some more even if it ends up in an assist after a PnR for example has nothing to do with ”moving the ball”. It can be efficient and winning basketball though, and zach has really improved in that area.

Also, if you think whether someone is ”moving the ball” or not can be looked up from the assists column, I dont know what to say..

Lauri isn’t a good passer, and has a lot to improve in that area. But only gafford and kornet have lower average seconds per touch in the whole team this season (of the players that have been part of the roster). Either he shoots or he passes the ball quickly.

If you look at where this discussion started, it came from someone bringing up the early GS title team and their motion offense. Virtually everyone on that team was great at passing and cutting. The bulls have an offense that was structurally similar to that and there is a lot of good passing with lots of cuts. Finding cutters isn’t Laura’s game and that can be found in the assist column.

IMO, Lauri would do best in a system dominated by a single good passing superstar, like his supporters have always called for. He can get the ball and take a good shot if it’s there or reset if it’s not.

[edededtut]

Fair enough. I do agree that’s Lauri’s biggest weakness and he should have more assists. His playmaking skills do need improving, usually when he tries attacking from the perimeter and the defense takes the scoring opportunity away the bulls have to start all over again. That’s something that should at least improve through experience..

His finishing at the rim has improved a ton since his rookie year, hopefully seeing the court better in those situations comes next.

[Louri]

I was talking about ”moving the ball” in the context of ”motion offense”. Dribbling and then dribbling some more even if it ends up in an assist after a PnR for example has nothing to do with ”moving the ball”. It can be efficient and winning basketball though, and zach has really improved in that area.

Also, if you think whether someone is ”moving the ball” or not can be looked up from the assists column, I dont know what to say..

Lauri isn’t a good passer, and has a lot to improve in that area. But only gafford and kornet have lower average seconds per touch in the whole team this season (of the players that have been part of the roster). Either he shoots or he passes the ball quickly.

If you look at where this discussion started, it came from someone bringing up the early GS title team and their motion offense. Virtually everyone on that team was great at passing and cutting. The bulls have an offense that was structurally similar to that and there is a lot of good passing with lots of cuts. Finding cutters isn’t Laura’s game and that can be found in the assist column.

IMO, Lauri would do best in a system dominated by a single good passing superstar, like his supporters have always called for. He can get the ball and take a good shot if it’s there or reset if it’s not.

I see what you did there.

[madvillian]

Are we back to Lauri doesn't pass? Last night he had a nice pass to a wide open Sato for 3. Sato bricked it. Ok, if he would have made it, Lauri would get an assist. Is that much of a game-changer?

Lauri got 20 touches last night. Let that sink in--20. That's 4x less than Vuc. So, if Vuc is expected to get you 4 apg on 80 touches, what's the expectation of our other seven footer for 20 touches? It's a statistical crapshoot because he's probably not expected to average more than 1. And, BTW, VUC is considered a good passer for a big.

If Lauri keeps scoring 2 points for every shot he attempts like over the last 2 games, I'm OK if he doesn't pass for the 20 min he's on the floor. He went 6/6 in the paint last night. What was he supposed to do--pass these shots up for what exactly?

Give the guy credit when he plays well and save your criticism for when he stinks it up.

Lauri has one of the lowest assist rates in the entire NBA. That’s playing on a team with a motion offense with several good shooters. He is a terrible passer and that has a huge impact on his value contractually and to the team. He can’t get a ton of touches because you can’t run an offense through him like Vucevic.

As far as his game to game play, that’s what post game threads are for and just about everyone said he played well.

Maybe it's a strained metaphor but Lauri is like a rook in chess. He's dangerous if you can get him in the right spots but for most of the game he's going to be a support piece. I'm thrilled to see him doing well at small forward in stretches and adjusting to his role off the bench. Doesn't really change much about his future with Chicago or anywhere else in the league imo. If he wants to improve he's going to have to put the work in the offseason to get a lower center of gravity (completely redo his body) and improve his handle and defensive awareness through film study. It's on him.

But, if this is just who he is, that's fine too. At least Chicago didn't give him 20 million per before finding out.

[Pentele]

His finishing at the rim has improved a ton since his rookie year, hopefully seeing the court better in those situations comes next.

Something like this is probably what you meant as well, but I will say it anyway: it seems to me Lauri is finishing at the rim at so high level that he should not really pass out from those situations (assuming, of course, that the spectacular finishing numbers he has put up this year hold). But he should definitely become a better passer when he moves towards the rim. What we have seen too often is the sort of hesitation from Lauri that telegraphs his intention to pass and leads too often to steals or broken plays. The hesitating Lauri is lumbering and clumsy-looking Lauri. It is a bit odd to see since especially nowadays he is quite a smooth, and even agile, finnisher for the guy with his size. He is not thinking ahead in those situations, and that of course becomes worse when he is not mentally in the game. Hopefully this is something that more experience remedies, but even so, the Bulls would not seem to be the team that benefits from it.

[chefo]

Look, I think we've chewed that one topic up countless times. Maybe we need to agree on definitions before we take it any further.

What's a "bad passer"? A guy who doesn't get assists? Or a guy who hogs the ball?

For example, Lauri gets about 40 touches per game for the season (25 since the demotion).
His touch is usually 1.5 sec, which means something happens almost immediately after he gets the ball
So, he has the ball in his hands for exactly 60 seconds / game

Out of these 40 touches:

* He shoots 12 times (30% of touches)
* Another touch results in 2 FT (2.5% of touches)
* One results in an assist (2.5% of touches)
* Another one results in a TO (2.5% of touches)

OK, so Lauri attempts to score on about 33% of his touches and tries to make something happen on another 5% of his touches. That would mean that 62% of the time, he passes the ball within a sec of getting it to a teammate. In these touches, which are almost 2/3s of his touches, he's not trying to create or anything--just moving the ball around.

Let's compare to a guard like Coby:
* Coby touches the ball 64 times / game (it was 70+ to open the year)
* Average time of possession is 5 seconds--so, Coby has the ball 320 sec / game or nearly 5.3x as much as Lauri; Coby's job, for much of the year, has been to run the team and play-make for others

Out of these 64 touches

* Coby shoots 13 times / game (about 20% of possessions)
* Another touch for 2 FT (1.5%)
* 4.5 assists (7.0%)
* 2.2 TOs (3.5%)

So Coby tries to score on a little less than a quarter of his possessions, and tries to make something happen on another 10ish. So, the other 2/3s of his possessions, he passes the ball along, just like Lauri.

Zach:
68 Touches, 5 seconds average--340 sec / game or nearly 5.7x what Lauri has the ball in his hands for

* Shoots 19 times (28%)
* 5 FTs (probably 2 possessions--3%)
* 5 APG (7%)
* 4 TOs (6%)

So, Zach tries to score on about the same number of his touches as Lauri, and tries to create something on another 13% of his touches, which means that he passes the ball along on ~56% of his touches.

Vuc (low sample size, but pretty consistent with season):
74 touches at 1.6 seconds or about 120 seconds, or 2x Lauri's time of possession

* Shoots 18 times (24%)
* 3 FT (1 possession + and1, let's say--1.5%)
* 4 asp (5.5%)
* 1 TO (1.5%)

So, Vuc, who's an offensive hub and a low post threat tries to score on a quarter of his touches (similar to Coby), and tries to make something happen on 7% of his touches, leaving about 67% of his touches flying around to teammates/handoffs, etc.

If you add "assists" + "moves the ball along":

Lauri: 2.5% + 62% = ~65% of Lauri's touches result in a pass, almost as a pure scorer
Coby: 7% + 68% = ~75% of Coby's touches result in a pass, as a playmaker and secondary scorer
Zach: 7% + 56% = ~63% of Zach's touches result in a pass, as a playmaker & primary scorer
Vuc: 5.5% + 67% = ~73% of Vuc's touches result in a pass, as a hub & primary scorer

These guys are pretty clustered, as you can see.

Just to put it in perspective, for Lauri to move the ball along as often as offensive hub Vuc would imply passing a couple of more times out of his 40 touches.

Again, just to sum it up-- Lauri passes the ball on nearly 2/3s of his touches. He's not a problem within a flowing, ball-sharing offense any more than Zach is. What the above shows is that Lauri is NOT as good as the other 3 at generating end-possession situations for others. But, we kind of knew that already--it's not some kind of secret that he's not a creative passer. However, to label him a ball hog or something of that nature is just not borne by the facts.

What he is better at compared to Vuc and especially Coby is putting the ball in the hoop efficiently (62% TS vs 59% for Vuc and 53% for Coby). What he is not as good as Vuc at is being aggressive and skillful enough to be able to consistently be in a position to put up 18 shots / game and be a hub the rest of his touches. But, given that's he's a super efficient scorer who mostly takes very good shots--the above numbers make perfect sense to me in a team and player setting.

P.S.
Another interesting ratio would be how often does a player try create a direct scoring result for others, out of his total passes:

--Lauri: 2.5% out 65% or 3.8% of his passes
--Coby: 7% out of 75%, or 9.3% of his passes
--Zach: 7% out of 63%, or 11.1% of his passes
--Vuc: 5.5% out of 73%, or 7.5% of his passes

It would be interesting to see how these ratios compare across positions, teams and star-status. They seem low to me, even for our primary ball-handlers, which, if I hadn't watched the Bulls, would have implied we probably move the ball around a lot. Don't know if that's true or not versus the league.

[coldfish]

I was talking about ”moving the ball” in the context of ”motion offense”. Dribbling and then dribbling some more even if it ends up in an assist after a PnR for example has nothing to do with ”moving the ball”. It can be efficient and winning basketball though, and zach has really improved in that area.

Also, if you think whether someone is ”moving the ball” or not can be looked up from the assists column, I dont know what to say..

Lauri isn’t a good passer, and has a lot to improve in that area. But only gafford and kornet have lower average seconds per touch in the whole team this season (of the players that have been part of the roster). Either he shoots or he passes the ball quickly.

If you look at where this discussion started, it came from someone bringing up the early GS title team and their motion offense. Virtually everyone on that team was great at passing and cutting. The bulls have an offense that was structurally similar to that and there is a lot of good passing with lots of cuts. Finding cutters isn’t Laura’s game and that can be found in the assist column.

IMO, Lauri would do best in a system dominated by a single good passing superstar, like his supporters have always called for. He can get the ball and take a good shot if it’s there or reset if it’s not.

I see what you did there.

Wasn’t intentional. I’m on mobile with over the top autocorrect and auto fill. I missed that one.

[E-DC]

Lauri's Shooting at the Rim
2017-18: .676
2018-19: .624
2019-20: .648
2020-21: .750

Lauri's Layup Percentage
2017-18: .483
2018-19: .511
2019-20: .496
2020-21: .584

Lauri's Hook Shot Percentage
2017-18: .320 (8-25)
2018-19: .200 (6-30)
2019-20: .462 (12-26)
2020-21: .900 (9-10)