Zach Lavine: Offered 4/80 from Kings update p26 Bulls Matched

[kulaz3000]

After some time has passed, I feel no better about this signing. I sincerely hope Zach proves me wrong but I feel that we are going to be wishing he wasn't on the team relatively shortly into that contract.

Funny who on the Bulls team right now is a better offensive option than Lavine.....this is not college basketball systems don't win in the NBA players do....When I say better I mean who can get, take and make a tough shot when you need a bucket....there in not a more skilled player on the Bulls right now than Zach.

Zach's problem is that he takes those shots when a much easier one would be available to another teammate. At the end of the day, every team needs a tough shot maker when the game is close at the end but if you are down 20 night after night, it doesn't matter.

While what you say is true, but I think the point is, he is the only player on our roster who can consistently create his own shots, albeit not using the wisest of decision making.

There is absolutely no one on the roster who can consistently create for themselves, besides maybe Blakeney and we simply couldn't afford to lose him - at least that's how I see it.

I never loved the signing (at the price tag), but I never really hated it. I'm in a wait and see state with Zach.

[WindyCityBorn]

I couldn't care less if Zach is the first option or not. I just want him to pass the ball if a teammate is open or has a more favorable matchup. Ignoring Markkanen like did last season should not be tolerated.

[kulaz3000]

I couldn't care less if Zach is the first option or not. I just want him to pass the ball if a teammate is open or has a more favorable matchup. Ignoring Markkanen like did last season should not be tolerated.

While this infuriating me to no end as well, I think for him, it was just a matter of getting back, and testing himself, which a lot of the time resulted him forcing the issue.

I think he has earned the reputation of not being the brightest of players, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a selfish player though. A fine line, sure, but I think with him being with the team a year now, with him actually being able to work on his game as opposed to rehabbing, seeing and knowing his teammates better, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, though on a short string.

[SHO'NUFF]

I couldn't care less if Zach is the first option or not. I just want him to pass the ball if a teammate is open or has a more favorable matchup. Ignoring Markkanen like did last season should not be tolerated.

While this infuriating me to no end as well, I think for him, it was just a matter of getting back, and testing himself, which a lot of the time resulted him forcing the issue.

I think he has earned the reputation of not being the brightest of players, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a selfish player though. A fine line, sure, but I think with him being with the team a year now, with him actually being able to work on his game as opposed to rehabbing, seeing and knowing his teammates better, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, though on a short string.

Also, I think Zach is the last player I’d blame on the bulls for ignoring Markkanen.

[johnnyvann840]

I couldn't care less if Zach is the first option or not. I just want him to pass the ball if a teammate is open or has a more favorable matchup. Ignoring Markkanen like did last season should not be tolerated.

While this infuriating me to no end as well, I think for him, it was just a matter of getting back, and testing himself, which a lot of the time resulted him forcing the issue.

I think he has earned the reputation of not being the brightest of players, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a selfish player though. A fine line, sure, but I think with him being with the team a year now, with him actually being able to work on his game as opposed to rehabbing, seeing and knowing his teammates better, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, though on a short string.

Also, I think Zach is the last player I’d blame on the bulls for ignoring Markkanen.

How can you say that? Lauri was taking over six 3's per game when Lavine came back. He was in the running for ROY. Zach comes back, has a usage rate of 30%(29.5), takes 20 shots(19.5) per 36 minutes. Lauri's 3 pt FGA's go down to 2.8 per game during Lavine's 24 games. He has 6 games where he took ZERO 3 pt attempts and hardly any FGA's at all per game. Zach sits down for the rest of the season and LAuri's 3 pt FGA immediately go back up to around 6 per game and he starts looking like an all star.

Now, this may all be circumstantial and it is difficult to prove but the evidence is extremely strong.. we know it wasn't Kris Dunn because Lauri was doing just fine with Dunn before Zach came back. I mean there certainly appears to be a direct correlation. The numbers show it. The timing shows it. The eye test certainly checked out. I can't even tell you how many times I watched Zach have tunnel vision when he had open teammates and just took bad shots. He creates shots for himself alright. Bad ones, unfortunately.

You say Lavine should be the last person to blame. Who else? Nobody else was close to Lavine's usage. Lavine's assist rate was anemic. Let me ask you this.... Who do you blame if it's not Lavine? Serious question. Not trying to be combative. Not trying to be a smart ass. I'm open to other theories.

[MisterRoy]

I couldn't care less if Zach is the first option or not. I just want him to pass the ball if a teammate is open or has a more favorable matchup. Ignoring Markkanen like did last season should not be tolerated.

While this infuriating me to no end as well, I think for him, it was just a matter of getting back, and testing himself, which a lot of the time resulted him forcing the issue.

I think he has earned the reputation of not being the brightest of players, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a selfish player though. A fine line, sure, but I think with him being with the team a year now, with him actually being able to work on his game as opposed to rehabbing, seeing and knowing his teammates better, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, though on a short string.

Also, I think Zach is the last player I’d blame on the bulls for ignoring Markkanen.

We just traded that reason to Orlando.


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[SHO'NUFF]

While this infuriating me to no end as well, I think for him, it was just a matter of getting back, and testing himself, which a lot of the time resulted him forcing the issue.

I think he has earned the reputation of not being the brightest of players, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a selfish player though. A fine line, sure, but I think with him being with the team a year now, with him actually being able to work on his game as opposed to rehabbing, seeing and knowing his teammates better, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, though on a short string.

Also, I think Zach is the last player I’d blame on the bulls for ignoring Markkanen.

How can you say that? Lauri was taking over six 3's per game when Lavine came back. He was in the running for ROY. Zach comes back, has a usage rate of 30%(29.5), takes 20 shots(19.5) per 36 minutes. Lauri's 3 pt FGA's go down to 2.8 per game during Lavine's 24 games. He has 6 games where he took ZERO 3 pt attempts and hardly any FGA's at all per game. Zach sits down for the rest of the season and LAuri's 3 pt FGA immediately go back up to around 6 per game and he starts looking like an all star.

Now, this may all be circumstantial and it is difficult to prove but the evidence is extremely strong.. we know it wasn't Kris Dunn because Lauri was doing just fine with Dunn before Zach came back. I mean there certainly appears to be a direct correlation. The numbers show it. The timing shows it. The eye test certainly checked out. I can't even tell you how many times I watched Zach have tunnel vision when he had open teammates and just took bad shots. He creates shots for himself alright. Bad ones, unfortunately.

You say Lavine should be the last person to blame. Who else? Nobody else was close to Lavine's usage. Lavine's assist rate was anemic. Let me ask you this.... Who do you blame if it's not Lavine? Serious question. Not trying to be combative. Not trying to be a smart ass. I'm open to other theories.

I saw just about every game and the eye test didn’t look to me as Lavine as the problem facilitating the ball to Lauri. It was our PG’s. Dunn did a poor job in the beginning facilitating the ball.... got better later in the season but then got injured. Jerian Grant did a HORRIBLE job looking for Lauri. That’s his job.....not Zach’s job (24 games as our SG).

PG’s Blakney...Payne...Didn’t do their jobs very well & that’s to facilitate.

[kulaz3000]

I saw just about every game and the eye test didn’t look to me as Lavine as the problem facilitating the ball to Lauri. It was our PG’s. Dunn did a poor job in the beginning facilitating the ball.... got better later in the season but then got injured. Jerian Grant did a HORRIBLE job looking for Lauri. That’s his job.....not Zach’s job (24 games as our SG).

PG’s Blakney...Payne...Didn’t do their jobs very well & that’s to facilitate.

Look, I don't think LaVine is without fault, but as mentioned he shouldn't be the first one on the list as the culprit just because he shot a lot. He is a shooting guard, of course he is going to shoot, but what about the players who actually delivered him the ball to shoot, well that was our lead guards.

I vividly remember having game after game discussing how Grant would totally ignore Lauri for long massive stretches, and still end up with 7 assists, because he would seek out players like Lopez who would usually shoot as soon as he gets the ball.

[boozapalooza]

Agreed. Too much focus being put on last year in a throw away season where he played 20 games coming off the ACL injury. By all accounts, he looks like he’s recovering well and didnt lose explosiveness. I dont mind paying 20 mil a year for a guy who can average 20-25 points per game for us and fits very well next to Dunn. Averaged 19 ppg at 22 years old as the 3rd option on his team. Everyone agreed when we got him he has the talent to be an elite scorer so why let him walk? Furthermore he’s well liked around the league and can help in recruiting efforts next offseason. No one is gonna sign with us if there isnt talent on the roster.

He has played 4 years in the NBA now.

His PER by year 11.3, 14.3, 14.6, 14.6
On off rating -10.1, -6.9, -4.3, -6.7

Last year really doesn't look like a flyer. What is really striking is how regularly he makes his teams worse when he gets on the floor and that's striking because he has exclusively played on bad teams. Effectively he makes some of the worst teams in the NBA look even worse, by a good bit, when he comes in.

He really doesn't fit with Dunn because he doesn't move well off ball. Not sure it matters because Dunn isn't particularly good either.

Its not about PER in this situation. He’s a young high upside athlete. Its about what he can become in the star role. Came into the league raw and needed a couple years to develop. At 22 in his 3rd year he put up 19 ppg as a 3rd option. The injury was unfortunate but he seems to be back at 100% moving forward. Lets see what he can do as the go to guy as he expands his game. His upside is he can be a 25 ppg scorer and that’s worth 20 mil in this NBA. He’s young and his contract is moveable as long as he stays healthy.

[johnnyvann840]

I decided I'm done criticizing Lavine. I'm going to forget what happened last year. Forget what happened in Minny.

There is nothing we can do about any of it. It happened. Lavine is a Bull and that is not changing. All we can do at this point is hope he changes his game.

I will keep an open mind and we'll just see what happens. I hope he surprises all of us who have been critical. I hope he reads our forum and he gets pissed off and motivated to make everybody around him better.

Go Zach! Go Bulls!

[MisterRoy]

I decided I'm done criticizing Lavine. I'm going to forget what happened last year. Forget what happened in Minny.

There is nothing we can do about any of it. It happened. Lavine is a Bull and that is not changing. All we can do at this point is hope he changes his game.

I will keep an open mind and we'll just see what happens. I hope he surprises all of us who have been critical. I hope he reads our forum and he gets pissed off and motivated to make everybody around him better.

Go Zach! Go Bulls!

Life as a Bulls Fan will now be more enjoyable.


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[NecessaryEvil]

Man, i hope this guy comes out and proves the doubters wrong. Watching The Jump earlier with Fridell & Ramona, they all spoke on this not being a good deal for Chicago, with Nick laughing about it, alot lmao.

Pls be working extra hard this offseason to become a smarter player, you already have the offensive talents but the defense and IQ needs to be priority 1a & 1b

sometimes when I hear him laugh, I hear REAL DUMB JOCK and that scares me lol

[MisterRoy]

Man, i hope this guy comes out and proves the doubters wrong. Watching The Jump earlier with Fridell & Ramona, they all spoke on this not being a good deal for Chicago, with Nick laughing about it, alot lmao.

Pls be working extra hard this offseason to become a smarter player, you already have the offensive talents but the defense and IQ needs to be priority 1a & 1b

sometimes when I hear him laugh, I hear REAL DUMB JOCK and that scares me lol

Nick is on shows cause he is ripping the Bulls, not because he is good at anything.


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[chrispatrick]

Agreed. Too much focus being put on last year in a throw away season where he played 20 games coming off the ACL injury. By all accounts, he looks like he’s recovering well and didnt lose explosiveness. I dont mind paying 20 mil a year for a guy who can average 20-25 points per game for us and fits very well next to Dunn. Averaged 19 ppg at 22 years old as the 3rd option on his team. Everyone agreed when we got him he has the talent to be an elite scorer so why let him walk? Furthermore he’s well liked around the league and can help in recruiting efforts next offseason. No one is gonna sign with us if there isnt talent on the roster.

He has played 4 years in the NBA now.

His PER by year 11.3, 14.3, 14.6, 14.6
On off rating -10.1, -6.9, -4.3, -6.7

Last year really doesn't look like a flyer. What is really striking is how regularly he makes his teams worse when he gets on the floor and that's striking because he has exclusively played on bad teams. Effectively he makes some of the worst teams in the NBA look even worse, by a good bit, when he comes in.

He really doesn't fit with Dunn because he doesn't move well off ball. Not sure it matters because Dunn isn't particularly good either.

Its not about PER in this situation. He’s a young high upside athlete. Its about what he can become in the star role. Came into the league raw and needed a couple years to develop. At 22 in his 3rd year he put up 19 ppg as a 3rd option. The injury was unfortunate but he seems to be back at 100% moving forward. Lets see what he can do as the go to guy as he expands his game. His upside is he can be a 25 ppg scorer and that’s worth 20 mil in this NBA. He’s young and his contract is moveable as long as he stays healthy.

Why do we think this contract is movable if, hypothetically, for a 5th straight year he is a massive net negative on the court? I think there is at least a decent chance that his 5th year plays out like his first 4 years and gets a bunch of points while the team plays better without him.

I agree the contract was based on potential more than past performance, but I think the current version of LaVine can both score 25 PPG and hurt a team while doing it at the same time.

I view LaVine as awful defensively and below-average offensively (while he's capable of scoring at volume, he's usually shooting less-efficient shots than the team would generate without him). It's easy for me to imagine him becoming a very good offensive player because all of the physical tools/skill are there, although his IQ/playmaking is a ways a way from where it needs to be. Where I struggle to see his potential is even in the event that he figured it out and became a very good offensive player, he'd still be giving it up on the defensive end barring him being the odd case of an NBA player who somehow learns defense 5, 6, 7 years into his career.

[chrispatrick]

I decided I'm done criticizing Lavine. I'm going to forget what happened last year. Forget what happened in Minny.

There is nothing we can do about any of it. It happened. Lavine is a Bull and that is not changing. All we can do at this point is hope he changes his game.

I will keep an open mind and we'll just see what happens. I hope he surprises all of us who have been critical. I hope he reads our forum and he gets pissed off and motivated to make everybody around him better.

Go Zach! Go Bulls!

But who will express and post everything I'm thinking about LaVine if you start being positive?

I am in the same boat though where I'll be rooting for the Bulls regardless and I'd absolutely love to look stupid in a year.

[johnnyvann840]

I decided I'm done criticizing Lavine. I'm going to forget what happened last year. Forget what happened in Minny.

There is nothing we can do about any of it. It happened. Lavine is a Bull and that is not changing. All we can do at this point is hope he changes his game.

I will keep an open mind and we'll just see what happens. I hope he surprises all of us who have been critical. I hope he reads our forum and he gets pissed off and motivated to make everybody around him better.

Go Zach! Go Bulls!

But who will express and post everything I'm thinking about LaVine if you start being positive?

I am in the same boat though where I'll be rooting for the Bulls regardless and I'd absolutely love to look stupid in a year.

I just said I'm done criticizing what's happened in the past. It's been beaten to death. Nothing we can do about it anyway. He's signed now. We just have to hope for the best.

Now, if he picks up where he left off and his usage and SPG are up there and he continues to be a negative on the court, then I'll be here telling it like it is.

It's just that there is no sense in talking about how bad he's been because it's done and we can't do a damn thing about it now that he got his contract and his money. So, let's just hope he changes his approach for the better. I'm not holding my breath, but I can hope at least.

[TheSuzerain]

Zach has now cost the franchise an incredible three 1st round picks.

- Indications are that we could have kept the #16 had we taken Rubio instead of Lavine. That’s one.

-Rubio was then traded for a 1st which could have been us if we had acquired Rubio. That’s two.

- With his $20 million cap hit off the books, we easily could have done the Faried trade to land another 1st. That’s three.

GarPax are just horrid at this asset management thing.

[StunnerKO]

[Red Larrivee]

Zach has now cost the franchise an incredible three 1st round picks.

- Indications are that we could have kept the #16 had we taken Rubio instead of Lavine. That’s one.

-Rubio was then traded for a 1st which could have been us if we had acquired Rubio. That’s two.

- With his $20 million cap hit off the books, we easily could have done the Faried trade to land another 1st. That’s three.

GarPax are just horrid at this asset management thing.

You were whining that Chicago traded Mirotic for what turned out to be a late 1st, but now you're upset that Chicago didn't take Rubio over a younger and higher upside talent, so that they could trade that for what became a late first as well.

Which one is it?

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[TheSuzerain]

Zach has now cost the franchise an incredible three 1st round picks.

- Indications are that we could have kept the #16 had we taken Rubio instead of Lavine. That’s one.

-Rubio was then traded for a 1st which could have been us if we had acquired Rubio. That’s two.

- With his $20 million cap hit off the books, we easily could have done the Faried trade to land another 1st. That’s three.

GarPax are just horrid at this asset management thing.

You were whining that Chicago traded Mirotic for what turned out to be a late 1st, but now you're upset that Chicago didn't take Rubio over a younger and higher upside talent, so that they could trade that for what became a late first as well.

Which one is it?

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I never whined about Chicago trading Mirotic for a late 1st. I whined about signing Niko in the first place.

The Pelicans also crushed us in that deal by getting Niko, a 2nd rounder, and dumping Asik's $$$.