The Kevin Love Thread: Update PG. 67, 78

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Going to be a fun june and july



Cba experts, are there rules that disallow the bulls to sign Deng as a fa since they traded him




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Deng still wants big money and he didn't do himself any favors in Cleveland. He's just not worth it.

I think his value took a hit in Cleveland. I think if the Bulls were to land Love, he'd want to come back and play here so long there were no bridges burned. And IF we were to get Love, I think Deng is a perfect small forward for this team. Otherwise, I really wouldnt care for Deng anymore. He'd have to take a paycut im assuming.

Quick, if were to land Love, how much money would we have left to offer someone in FA?

[red222]

Via the Score david schuster said that he'd be SHOCKED if love isn't moved by the draft.

[bullslas]

Deng did himself no favors with Cleveland. I'm going to guess teams are more willing to overspend on Lance, Hayward and Parsons. If Melo goes to Houston, who else is going to pay Deng 10mil a year? Deng will be lucky to get 3/24.

[randybrown]

Via the Score david schuster said that he'd be SHOCKED if love isn't moved by the draft.

Minny would be smart to move him by then.
The value for Love begins to decline the day after the draft.

[mysticbb]

Two things: Offensively, we were playing with no Derrick Rose. Add Rose to the mix and all of a sudden our offense gets leagues better.

If Rose is back at his old level, sure, but what if he is not? And the idea is to make it easier for the overall team to get better offensive results. With only Rose, the Bulls would again be way too dependent on just one really better player offensively.

Secondly, Love isn't "better" than Boozer on defense.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Go check the reality, please, because you are clearly going off your fantasy here.

Anthony is not a "worse" team defender than Love.

Actually, he is. Again, check the reality, your fantasy is not seen there.

I don't think there's any question that Melo is the better fit for this team given that we have a starting PF already.

Anthony has his bigger impact offensively when playing PF; in fact, if we remove him as a p&r ball handler (which he should be anyway), he plays from the same spots as Love does. The big difference? Love doesn't take as many contested midrange shots, but rather makes the proper pass or tries to get to the rim instead. Love has the more team-oriented playing style as well as the more efficient one. How that should not fit within a team is beyond any reasons. Love can play next to Gibson, and there are more than enough minutes in the FC to share between Noah, Gibson and Love and get sufficient offensive and defensive lineups out of any combination of those 3. I do not worry about "defensive identity", if the goal of the game is to score more points than the opponents. Whether that is done via offense or defense or both is completely meaningless to the end result. We can't worry about "identity", we should worry about WINS!

We need a scoring wing which we still won't have even if Love comes.

Wow, first Rose is enough, then the Bulls need a scoring wing? What is it? Is Rose enough for the offense or does it make sense to add a high efficient offensive player to the mix? Really, if you want more offense, go with Love. If you want better overall team defense? Go with Love too. Love is simply the better overall player, he is younger and he costs less. There shouldn't even one tiny little doubt that Love is the better option for the Bulls than Anthony is.

So, if Love isn't available for a reasonable package, obviously getting Anthony helps too.

[mysticbb]

he is not 38 man, its not about age its about fit!

The younger, better and less expansive player does fit better! Getting Love during his prime years is incredible good, getting Anthony at the end of his prime/start of declining years would be good too, but Love is clearly the better option for the Bulls.

[mysticbb]

Deng did himself no favors with Cleveland. I'm going to guess teams are more willing to overspend on Lance, Hayward and Parsons. If Melo goes to Houston, who else is going to pay Deng 10mil a year? Deng will be lucky to get 3/24.

The Mavericks expressed already more interest in Deng than in Stephenson. Then we have the raised cap and a lot of teams with capspace ... no way Deng only gets 24/3 in his next contract.

[Leto]

Two things: Offensively, we were playing with no Derrick Rose. Add Rose to the mix and all of a sudden our offense gets leagues better.

If Rose is back at his old level, sure, but what if he is not? And the idea is to make it easier for the overall team to get better offensive results. With only Rose, the Bulls would again be way too dependent on just one really better player offensively.

Secondly, Love isn't "better" than Boozer on defense.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Go check the reality, please, because you are clearly going off your fantasy here.

Anthony is not a "worse" team defender than Love.

Actually, he is. Again, check the reality, your fantasy is not seen there.

I don't think there's any question that Melo is the better fit for this team given that we have a starting PF already.

Anthony has his bigger impact offensively when playing PF; in fact, if we remove him as a p&r ball handler (which he should be anyway), he plays from the same spots as Love does. The big difference? Love doesn't take as many contested midrange shots, but rather makes the proper pass or tries to get to the rim instead. Love has the more team-oriented playing style as well as the more efficient one. How that should not fit within a team is beyond any reasons. Love can play next to Gibson, and there are more than enough minutes in the FC to share between Noah, Gibson and Love and get sufficient offensive and defensive lineups out of any combination of those 3. I do not worry about "defensive identity", if the goal of the game is to score more points than the opponents. Whether that is done via offense or defense or both is completely meaningless to the end result. We can't worry about "identity", we should worry about WINS!

We need a scoring wing which we still won't have even if Love comes.

Wow, first Rose is enough, then the Bulls need a scoring wing? What is it? Is Rose enough for the offense or does it make sense to add a high efficient offensive player to the mix? Really, if you want more offense, go with Love. If you want better overall team defense? Go with Love too. Love is simply the better overall player, he is younger and he costs less. There shouldn't even one tiny little doubt that Love is the better option for the Bulls than Anthony is.

So, if Love isn't available for a reasonable package, obviously getting Anthony helps too.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. I do not think Love is a better defender than Boozer. I don't think he necessarily worse, but they both suck--which is rather the point.

I also think Melo is a better defender than Love. Saying it's a "fantasy" as a gesture of patronizing ad hominem doesn't really change my mind.

I never said "Rose is enough." I said we'd be leagues better with Rose. If you're going to patronize at least be good at it.

I think most people agree with me that Melo is a better fit. We already have a solid starting PF in Taj. Upgrading our wings is a much better use of our resources--which is why I'm opting for Melo.

[Chitownbulls]

If we made this trade with Minnesota...it would be a sign an trade right?

Because Love could just leave us if it isnt.

[coldfish]

If we made this trade with Minnesota...it would be a sign an trade right?

Because Love could just leave us if it isnt.

He is under contract at least until summer 2015 so there would just be a normal trade. I assume the bulls would talk to love first and get him to agree to a 4 year extension to be signed after he is traded.

[Chitownbulls]

If we made this trade with Minnesota...it would be a sign an trade right?

Because Love could just leave us if it isnt.

He is under contract at least until summer 2015 so there would just be a normal trade. I assume the bulls would talk to love first and get him to agree to a 4 year extension to be signed after he is traded.

Ya I hope so. You never know what can happen with Derrick once he comes back.

[mysticbb]

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. I do not think Love is a better defender than Boozer. I don't think he necessarily worse, but they both suck--which is rather the point.

I also think Melo is a better defender than Love. Saying it's a "fantasy" as a gesture of patronizing ad hominem doesn't really change my mind.

Synergy defense (less is better):

Love 0.84 ppp
Anthony 0.86 ppp
Boozer 0.89 ppp

Defensive RAPM (prior informed, more is better):

Love +0.1
Anthony -1.8
Boozer -1.8

The data clearly states that Love is the better overall defender. And yeah, check out how much of those off-ball defensive possession you saw from each player which are all in those stats as well before declaring that you can see that better ...

I think most people agree with me that Melo is a better fit.

Why would that matter "what most people do"? Look at HOW they played the game, look at what they have done on the court, look at how much impact each had on their respective team. Then check out the age and the salary, and then come back and explain me why the better player, who happens to be younger and costs less is supposed to be the "worse fit".

We already have a solid starting PF in Taj. Upgrading our wings is a much better use of our resources--which is why I'm opting for Melo.

Anthony PLAYED PF for the Knicks for the past two seasons. Seriously, when was the last time you saw him play? When he was on the Nuggets? And how is the more expansive player the "better use of "our" resources"?
A team has 96 minutes to give out at the big position, having 3 players for that is perfectly fine. And it is far easier to get similar good wing players than good bigs.

Again, 26yr old player entering his prime or 30yr old player at the end of it, when the 26yr old player is better and costs less money? That should be a no-brainer. Although, when the only thing the people have in mind is ppg, I can imagine how someone would think that the guy who needs more than 2 shots more per game to score 1 point more could be the "better fit" ...

[mysticbb]

He is under contract at least until summer 2015 so there would just be a normal trade. I assume the bulls would talk to love first and get him to agree to a 4 year extension to be signed after he is traded.

He can't extend that contract after a trade for 6 month. At that point, he may as well wait until the summer and then gets the 5yr max offer.

[Red Larrivee]

These Love threads remind me so much of the old KG ones. Right down to outraged Twolves fans coming in thinking they are going to gut every asset a team has for a player that no longer wants to be there - good luck, not happening. Nor does it jive with historical return of players in similar positions. You aren't getting full value due to the circumstances, so prepare to be outraged when a Love deal does finally happen, to whatever team.

And on the Bulls fan side, no one should be eager for a trade at all costs. The team is not done just upon getting Love. We cannot give up Mirotic, Gibson, Butler, and all our picks, how do you make the team better going forward with absolutely no assets?

The hardline has to be keeping one of Gibson or Mirotic (Nikola even if to use to get a wing later on). Or if those two are in then keeping the picks.

Yeah, I would guess the deal is Gibson, Butler, Brewer, rights to #16, 2015 first (Cle swap) and 2016 second round pick (Portland) for Love.

Derrick Rose $18,862,876
Kevin Love $15,719,063
Joakim Noah $12,200,000
Mike Dunleavy $3,326,235
Tony Snell $1,472,400
1st Round Pick (CHI) $1,266,000
Nikola Mirotic (hold) $1,075,300
Greg Smith $915,243
cap hold $507,336
cap hold $507,336
cap hold $507,336
Rip Hamilton (stretch) $333,334

=$56.692M (following Boozer amnesty)

If all exceptions are renounced, it gives you around $6.5 million in cap room and the room MLE.

Not too encouraging of a team left over, but a pretty good nucleus. The more I think about it, Carmelo just makes too much more sense as Plan A. We have a bigger hole at SF than we do PF, and at least by acquiring Melo, we can assure Mirotic has a spot here going forward. I honestly don't think Chicago would get much for Mirotic in a trade by himself.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. I do not think Love is a better defender than Boozer. I don't think he necessarily worse, but they both suck--which is rather the point.

I also think Melo is a better defender than Love. Saying it's a "fantasy" as a gesture of patronizing ad hominem doesn't really change my mind.

Synergy defense (less is better):

Love 0.84 ppp
Anthony 0.86 ppp
Boozer 0.89 ppp

Defensive RAPM (prior informed, more is better):

Love +0.1
Anthony -1.8
Boozer -1.8

The data clearly states that Love is the better overall defender. And yeah, check out how much of those off-ball defensive possession you saw from each player which are all in those stats as well before declaring that you can see that better ...

I think most people agree with me that Melo is a better fit.

Why would that matter "what most people do"? Look at HOW they played the game, look at what they have done on the court, look at how much impact each had on their respective team. Then check out the age and the salary, and then come back and explain me why the better player, who happens to be younger and costs less is supposed to be the "worse fit".

We already have a solid starting PF in Taj. Upgrading our wings is a much better use of our resources--which is why I'm opting for Melo.

Anthony PLAYED PF for the Knicks for the past two seasons. Seriously, when was the last time you saw him play? When he was on the Nuggets? And how is the more expansive player the "better use of "our" resources"?
A team has 96 minutes to give out at the big position, having 3 players for that is perfectly fine. And it is far easier to get similar good wing players than good bigs.

Again, 26yr old player entering his prime or 30yr old player at the end of it, when the 26yr old player is better and costs less money? That should be a no-brainer. Although, when the only thing the people have in mind is ppg, I can imagine how someone would think that the guy who needs more than 2 shots more per game to score 1 point more could be the "better fit" ...

Perfect example of those two stats are bullchit and can't accurately measure a players defensive impact. Especially someone like Love who flat out refuses to help on defense, and sells out for the rebound.

[mysticbb]

The more I think about it, Carmelo just makes too much more sense as Plan A.

Anthony costs $6.7m per season more over the next 4 years. So, what is left then?

We have a bigger hole at SF than we do PF, and at least by acquiring Melo, we can assure Mirotic has a spot here going forward.

Anthony played PF for the Knicks. And you really don't want to play Anthony and Mirotic on the court at the same time. And if you care about defense, you better not plan on playing Anthony and Mirotic together on the court ...

[Magilla_Gorilla]

These Love threads remind me so much of the old KG ones. Right down to outraged Twolves fans coming in thinking they are going to gut every asset a team has for a player that no longer wants to be there - good luck, not happening. Nor does it jive with historical return of players in similar positions. You aren't getting full value due to the circumstances, so prepare to be outraged when a Love deal does finally happen, to whatever team.

And on the Bulls fan side, no one should be eager for a trade at all costs. The team is not done just upon getting Love. We cannot give up Mirotic, Gibson, Butler, and all our picks, how do you make the team better going forward with absolutely no assets?

The hardline has to be keeping one of Gibson or Mirotic (Nikola even if to use to get a wing later on). Or if those two are in then keeping the picks.

Yeah, I would guess the deal is Gibson, Butler, Brewer, rights to #16, 2015 first (Cle swap) and 2016 second round pick (Portland) for Love.

Derrick Rose $18,862,876
Kevin Love $15,719,063
Joakim Noah $12,200,000
Mike Dunleavy $3,326,235
Tony Snell $1,472,400
1st Round Pick (CHI) $1,266,000
Nikola Mirotic (hold) $1,075,300
Greg Smith $915,243
cap hold $507,336
cap hold $507,336
cap hold $507,336
Rip Hamilton (stretch) $333,334

=$56.692M (following Boozer amnesty)

If all exceptions are renounced, it gives you around $6.5 million in cap room and the room MLE.

Not too encouraging of a team left over, but a pretty good nucleus. The more I think about it, Carmelo just makes too much more sense as Plan A. We have a bigger hole at SF than we do PF, and at least by acquiring Melo, we can assure Mirotic has a spot here going forward. I honestly don't think Chicago would get much for Mirotic in a trade by himself.

Melo just makes so much more sense when you put the two options side by side.

[mysticbb]

Perfect example of those two stats are bullchit and can't accurately measure a players defensive impact. Especially someone like Love who flat out refuses to help on defense, and sells out for the rebound.

Well, how many games of Love did you see this season? And your assertation that Love would trade defense for rebounds was true 2 years ago, it isn't anymore. That is a key part why his impact became better. Love defends the position and is working within the defensive scheme far better than he did 2 years ago.

From my perspective that is a perfect example of fans living in the past while believing their eyes could do a better job than the eyes of others as well as better measure the differences than statistical methods which proved to be way better than those fans at prediction the outcome of future games.

[mysticbb]

Melo just makes so much more sense when you put the two options side by side.

So, the older and worse player, who will make $6.7m more per season makes "so much more sense"? Really? Why? Because he scored 1 ppg more in 3 mpg more while taking 2.3 shots per game more? Love is more efficient as a scorer, he is the better passer, the overall better off-ball player and then the better impact-player defensively. But well, who cares about anything else, right?

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Melo just makes so much more sense when you put the two options side by side.

So, the older and worse player, who will make $6.7m more per season makes "so much more sense"? Really? Why? Because he scored 1 ppg more in 3 mpg more while taking 2.3 shots per game more? Love is more efficient as a scorer, he is the better passer, the overall better off-ball player and then the better impact-player defensively. But well, who cares about anything else, right?

Exactly.