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Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1861 » by E-DC » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:36 am

nomorezorro wrote:i think this came up during a discussion about zach a while back, but it's probably worth noting that being an efficient scorer in and of itself is increasingly less valuable as scoring efficiency trends up leaguewide. lauri's having a really really good scoring year, but also there are 57 players this season with a ts% over 60% (as compared to 41 last season, 36 the year before. there were 14 in 2015-16!)

offenses are getting better, shot selection is getting better. obviously it's still good to have players who are above-average in this category, but it's increasingly plausible that you could find another player to replicate the majority of his production at a fraction of the price some people are discussing

This is an interesting point that hadn't occurred to me. Thank you.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1862 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:37 am

dougthonus wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:People worth the big bucks don't have their roles and usage fluctuate on a game by game basis either.


I agree, and the Bulls did everything they good for 3.5 seasons to try to put Lauri in position to succeed. After Lauri still didn't succeed, they are now treating him like a player worth the big bucks and have relegated him to a player whose role will fluctuate.

He was put in a position to fail against the Hawks, forced to play a role that doesn't suit him. Given how he was utilized that game, it would have made much more sense to play Theis instead.


Most players whom are fringe / MLE talent types take what minutes they can get and make the best of them and don't expect the team to be built around trying to make them succeed.

That is in direct contrast to the previous two games where we did a great job of utilizing him properly and it seemed like he was getting more comfortable with his new bench role. I mean, what's the logic in playing a guy 18 minutes when he's 8-10 then playing him 27 minutes when he only has 4 shots?


Guys who rely on other people to get shots are always going to have up and down attempts. Personally, I think we've seen Lauri get tired lots of times in the past, four games in five nights, I think Lauri was just gassed and had a poor night. Could the Bulls have gotten him more looks? Maybe, but who cares? You don't argue about how many looks your fringe players get. That's who Lauri is. He's a fringe player. If Coby White gets 4 looks one night or Pat Williams gets 4 looks one night, I don't care about it either.

At the same time, I don't bury Lauri for having a poor game against Atlanta. He could easily bounce back next game. It's just who he is, an offensive gunner that can't create his own shot but can create good offense with help occasionally. Some games he'll be really useful some games he won't.
It's interesting you feel that way because I feel the Bulls did just about everything they could to sabotage Lauri's development. Obviously not intentionally, they were just grossly incompetent. Not just Lauri either, pretty much all of the young players in recent years have been exposed to a less than ideal development environment. Lauri is just the most blatant example.

Fred Hoiberg is a bad NBA coach. He was replaced by arguably the worst coach in recent memory who completely mismanaged Lauri and botched his development. Of course Lauri is to blame as well, but I think it's a real stretch to say the Bulls did everything they could to develop him. There's clearly been a change of culture and an increased focus on player development since AKME took over, and maybe Lauri would be a different player had they been the ones to draft him back in 2017.

Billy Donovan is 10 times better than Hoiberg and 100 times better than Boylen, but while he's ostensibly got Lauri more involved in the offense this season, he's pretty much doubled down on Boylen's view of Lauri as a one dimensional 3 point shooter. The only difference is Boylen used Lauri like a Keith Bogans type (primarily spotting up in the corner) while Billy uses Lauri as a Kyle Korver type (primarily running him off screens for 3s). Lauri is absolutely capable of doing those things, but during his first two years he was by far at his best when he was a high volume, high touches, high usage player who did a lot more than just shoot 3s.

Just take a look at his unassisted 2 point FG% his first two years compared to this year. He actually was pretty good at getting his own offense for a guy his size, but we've almost completely abandoned utilizing Lauri in that manner. Now he's become a system player. What happened to him grabbing the defensive rebound and pushing it up court himself? I can only assume he's been told to cut that out, as I can count on one hand the number of times he's done it the past two years.

Lauri was 2nd on the team in touches per game his rookie year. He was also 2nd in 2018-19 (the FebruLauri year), above even Zach. He was 5th last year and he's 7th this year. That is absurd and the exact opposite of what's best for his development. Lauri is a player who plays better in all aspects the more involved he is. His defense and rebounding alone aren't good enough, but when he's active and involved on offense they reach acceptable levels. If we're going to continue playing Lauri 25+ minutes with a minimal amount of shots and offensive involvement then we can expect more games like we saw against the Hawks.

People like to point to Jerami Grant as an example of a guy taking on a bigger role and running with it, but even now with Grant being the clear cut first option his unassisted 2 point FG% rate is still lower than Lauri's was in the past. Lauri created more of his own offense as a 2nd/3rd year 2nd option big man than Grant is right now as a 7th year 1st option wing.

I think another team will take a chance on Lauri and bump his touches up closer to what they were his first two years and he'll be the player we all hoped he would become and we'll all be kicking ourselves for letting him slip through our fingers. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1863 » by mtron32 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:19 am

GoBlue72391 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:People worth the big bucks don't have their roles and usage fluctuate on a game by game basis either.


I agree, and the Bulls did everything they good for 3.5 seasons to try to put Lauri in position to succeed. After Lauri still didn't succeed, they are now treating him like a player worth the big bucks and have relegated him to a player whose role will fluctuate.

He was put in a position to fail against the Hawks, forced to play a role that doesn't suit him. Given how he was utilized that game, it would have made much more sense to play Theis instead.


Most players whom are fringe / MLE talent types take what minutes they can get and make the best of them and don't expect the team to be built around trying to make them succeed.

That is in direct contrast to the previous two games where we did a great job of utilizing him properly and it seemed like he was getting more comfortable with his new bench role. I mean, what's the logic in playing a guy 18 minutes when he's 8-10 then playing him 27 minutes when he only has 4 shots?


Guys who rely on other people to get shots are always going to have up and down attempts. Personally, I think we've seen Lauri get tired lots of times in the past, four games in five nights, I think Lauri was just gassed and had a poor night. Could the Bulls have gotten him more looks? Maybe, but who cares? You don't argue about how many looks your fringe players get. That's who Lauri is. He's a fringe player. If Coby White gets 4 looks one night or Pat Williams gets 4 looks one night, I don't care about it either.

At the same time, I don't bury Lauri for having a poor game against Atlanta. He could easily bounce back next game. It's just who he is, an offensive gunner that can't create his own shot but can create good offense with help occasionally. Some games he'll be really useful some games he won't.
It's interesting you feel that way because I feel the Bulls did just about everything they could to sabotage Lauri's development. Obviously not intentionally, they were just grossly incompetent. Not just Lauri either, pretty much all of the young players in recent years have been exposed to a less than ideal development environment. Lauri is just the most blatant example.

Fred Hoiberg is a bad NBA coach. He was replaced by arguably the worst coach in recent memory who completely mismanaged Lauri and botched his development. Of course Lauri is to blame as well, but I think it's a real stretch to say the Bulls did everything they could to develop him. There's clearly been a change of culture and an increased focus on player development since AKME took over, and maybe Lauri would be a different player had they been the ones to draft him back in 2017.

Billy Donovan is 10 times better than Hoiberg and 100 times better than Boylen, but while he's ostensibly got Lauri more involved in the offense this season, he's pretty much doubled down on Boylen's view of Lauri as a one dimensional 3 point shooter. The only difference is Boylen used Lauri like a Keith Bogans type (primarily spotting up in the corner) while Billy uses Lauri as a Kyle Korver type (primarily running him off screens for 3s). Lauri is absolutely capable of doing those things, but during his first two years he was by far at his best when he was a high volume, high touches, high usage player who did a lot more than just shoot 3s.

Just take a look at his unassisted 2 point FG% his first two years compared to this year. He actually was pretty good at getting his own offense for a guy his size, but we've almost completely abandoned utilizing Lauri in that manner. Now he's become a system player. What happened to him grabbing the defensive rebound and pushing it up court himself? I can only assume he's been told to cut that out, as I can count on one hand the number of times he's done it the past two years.

Lauri was 2nd on the team in touches per game his rookie year. He was also 2nd in 2018-19 (the FebruLauri year), above even Zach. He was 5th last year and he's 7th this year. That is absurd and the exact opposite of what's best for his development. Lauri is a player who plays better in all aspects the more involved he is. His defense and rebounding alone aren't good enough, but when he's active and involved on offense they reach acceptable levels. If we're going to continue playing Lauri 25+ minutes with a minimal amount of shots and offensive involvement then we can expect more games like we saw against the Hawks.

People like to point to Jerami Grant as an example of a guy taking on a bigger role and running with it, but even now with Grant being the clear cut first option his unassisted 2 point FG% rate is still lower than Lauri's was in the past. Lauri created more of his own offense as a 2nd/3rd year 2nd option big man than Grant is right now as a 7th year 1st option wing.

I think another team will take a chance on Lauri and bump his touches up closer to what they were his first two years and he'll be the player we all hoped he would become and we'll all be kicking ourselves for letting him slip through our fingers. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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We can’t blame Boyle for Lauri not improving, Zach improved every season in spite of numerous coaching changes. The reason Lauri is relegated to being a spot up shooter is because “Lauri” settles for being a spot up shooter. We saw these last few games where he was all of a sudden posting up, scoring off PnR, cutting to the basket, etc. he does that from time to time but the dude is comfortable waiting to shoot the three. That’s just lack of effort.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1864 » by Neonblazer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:45 am

mtron32 wrote:
We can’t blame Boyle for Lauri not improving, Zach improved every season in spite of numerous coaching changes. The reason Lauri is relegated to being a spot up shooter is because “Lauri” settles for being a spot up shooter. We saw these last few games where he was all of a sudden posting up, scoring off PnR, cutting to the basket, etc. he does that from time to time but the dude is comfortable waiting to shoot the three. That’s just lack of effort.

Honest question, how has Zach improved during these years in Bulls? I see that thrown out alot but its not obvious atleast from the statistic perspective. Zach does more per game but his usage has increased and he is taking alot more shots than before so its pretty obvious that he is "doing more".

Edit. Of course I'm talking about all the years, this year Zach is obviously shooting alot more efficiently than before but I really want to know how people are explaining the improvement over years.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1865 » by Mbrahv0528 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:58 am

mtron32 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
I agree, and the Bulls did everything they good for 3.5 seasons to try to put Lauri in position to succeed. After Lauri still didn't succeed, they are now treating him like a player worth the big bucks and have relegated him to a player whose role will fluctuate.



Most players whom are fringe / MLE talent types take what minutes they can get and make the best of them and don't expect the team to be built around trying to make them succeed.



Guys who rely on other people to get shots are always going to have up and down attempts. Personally, I think we've seen Lauri get tired lots of times in the past, four games in five nights, I think Lauri was just gassed and had a poor night. Could the Bulls have gotten him more looks? Maybe, but who cares? You don't argue about how many looks your fringe players get. That's who Lauri is. He's a fringe player. If Coby White gets 4 looks one night or Pat Williams gets 4 looks one night, I don't care about it either.

At the same time, I don't bury Lauri for having a poor game against Atlanta. He could easily bounce back next game. It's just who he is, an offensive gunner that can't create his own shot but can create good offense with help occasionally. Some games he'll be really useful some games he won't.
It's interesting you feel that way because I feel the Bulls did just about everything they could to sabotage Lauri's development. Obviously not intentionally, they were just grossly incompetent. Not just Lauri either, pretty much all of the young players in recent years have been exposed to a less than ideal development environment. Lauri is just the most blatant example.

Fred Hoiberg is a bad NBA coach. He was replaced by arguably the worst coach in recent memory who completely mismanaged Lauri and botched his development. Of course Lauri is to blame as well, but I think it's a real stretch to say the Bulls did everything they could to develop him. There's clearly been a change of culture and an increased focus on player development since AKME took over, and maybe Lauri would be a different player had they been the ones to draft him back in 2017.

Billy Donovan is 10 times better than Hoiberg and 100 times better than Boylen, but while he's ostensibly got Lauri more involved in the offense this season, he's pretty much doubled down on Boylen's view of Lauri as a one dimensional 3 point shooter. The only difference is Boylen used Lauri like a Keith Bogans type (primarily spotting up in the corner) while Billy uses Lauri as a Kyle Korver type (primarily running him off screens for 3s). Lauri is absolutely capable of doing those things, but during his first two years he was by far at his best when he was a high volume, high touches, high usage player who did a lot more than just shoot 3s.

Just take a look at his unassisted 2 point FG% his first two years compared to this year. He actually was pretty good at getting his own offense for a guy his size, but we've almost completely abandoned utilizing Lauri in that manner. Now he's become a system player. What happened to him grabbing the defensive rebound and pushing it up court himself? I can only assume he's been told to cut that out, as I can count on one hand the number of times he's done it the past two years.

Lauri was 2nd on the team in touches per game his rookie year. He was also 2nd in 2018-19 (the FebruLauri year), above even Zach. He was 5th last year and he's 7th this year. That is absurd and the exact opposite of what's best for his development. Lauri is a player who plays better in all aspects the more involved he is. His defense and rebounding alone aren't good enough, but when he's active and involved on offense they reach acceptable levels. If we're going to continue playing Lauri 25+ minutes with a minimal amount of shots and offensive involvement then we can expect more games like we saw against the Hawks.

People like to point to Jerami Grant as an example of a guy taking on a bigger role and running with it, but even now with Grant being the clear cut first option his unassisted 2 point FG% rate is still lower than Lauri's was in the past. Lauri created more of his own offense as a 2nd/3rd year 2nd option big man than Grant is right now as a 7th year 1st option wing.

I think another team will take a chance on Lauri and bump his touches up closer to what they were his first two years and he'll be the player we all hoped he would become and we'll all be kicking ourselves for letting him slip through our fingers. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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We can’t blame Boyle for Lauri not improving, Zach improved every season in spite of numerous coaching changes. The reason Lauri is relegated to being a spot up shooter is because “Lauri” settles for being a spot up shooter. We saw these last few games where he was all of a sudden posting up, scoring off PnR, cutting to the basket, etc. he does that from time to time but the dude is comfortable waiting to shoot the three. That’s just lack of effort.
Yes we absolutely can and we should.

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1866 » by thedarkstark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:00 am

Chin up boys and girls only 21 more games until we never have to see Lauri Markkannen play basketball again!

:clap:
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1867 » by GrowingHorns » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:12 am

thedarkstark wrote:Chin up boys and girls only 21 more games until we never have to see Lauri Markkannen play basketball again!

:clap:


Just twice a season for u, when he smashes the NBA hell Bulls in regular season, with Luka himself.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1868 » by thedarkstark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:25 am

GrowingHorns wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:Chin up boys and girls only 21 more games until we never have to see Lauri Markkannen play basketball again!

:clap:


Just twice a season for u, when he smashes the NBA hell Bulls in regular season, with Luka himself.

You mean when Luka has a 30 point triple double and Lauri watches from the bench with a DNP - coaches decision?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1869 » by Clocian » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 am

Damn I love Hip Hop!
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1870 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:56 am

thedarkstark wrote:
GrowingHorns wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:Chin up boys and girls only 21 more games until we never have to see Lauri Markkannen play basketball again!

:clap:


Just twice a season for u, when he smashes the NBA hell Bulls in regular season, with Luka himself.

You mean when Luka has a 30 point triple double and Lauri watches from the bench with a DNP - coaches decision?

You're delusional if you really think Lauri is a DNP-CD :lol:
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1871 » by ZOMG » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:32 am

nomorezorro wrote:i genuinely don't know what universe lauri stans are living in when they complain about him not hitting some arbitrary shots metric in every single game. one, he's very obviously not a featured player at this point in his career, so it's not like it's gonna hit the third quarter and billy's gonna go "oh **** we need to get lauri more involved!" when he sees a lower-than-usual number of shots for a bench guy. (for the atlanta game, this is particularly after the nuts first half zach had.)

second, and more importantly, if you're an offensive-oriented player and you play 27 minutes and you only get four shots in the flow of the offense...how is that not on you? the bulls don't run plays and go "ok it's time for lauri to get a shot now" and sometimes they do that 15 times and sometimes they do it 4 times. "other people have to force feed him the ball for him to be good at the one thing he's good at" is not a selling point!


That's such a crazy argument. The goalposts are moving so fast I can't keep up.

For instance, we literally force feed Vucevic the ball all the time. He would be helpless otherwise. It's been pointed out many times recently that you can't even compare the amount of touches he's getting with those received by Markkanen. It's like they're playing a different sport.

It's just a fact that as a non ball handling big, you're dependent on your teammates when it comes to any kind of stable production. Sure Vuc could just manufacture some baskets purely off offensive rebounds, but then it would be like "Why is this guy only averaging 12ppg? It's a travesty!! He should create for himself more" etc.

It's pretty weird how people seem to be completely incapable of grasping the limitations of the wing roles in the system the Bulls are playing. It's been explained again and again how the whole thing is based on the interplay between the guards and the center.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1872 » by imagge » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:04 am

ZOMG wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:i genuinely don't know what universe lauri stans are living in when they complain about him not hitting some arbitrary shots metric in every single game. one, he's very obviously not a featured player at this point in his career, so it's not like it's gonna hit the third quarter and billy's gonna go "oh **** we need to get lauri more involved!" when he sees a lower-than-usual number of shots for a bench guy. (for the atlanta game, this is particularly after the nuts first half zach had.)

second, and more importantly, if you're an offensive-oriented player and you play 27 minutes and you only get four shots in the flow of the offense...how is that not on you? the bulls don't run plays and go "ok it's time for lauri to get a shot now" and sometimes they do that 15 times and sometimes they do it 4 times. "other people have to force feed him the ball for him to be good at the one thing he's good at" is not a selling point!


That's such a crazy argument. The goalposts are moving so fast I can't keep up.

For instance, we literally force feed Vucevic the ball all the time. He would be helpless otherwise. It's been pointed out many times recently that you can't even compare the amount of touches he's getting with those received by Markkanen. It's like they're playing a different sport.

It's just a fact that as a non ball handling big, you're dependent on your teammates when it comes to any kind of stable production. Sure Vuc could just manufacture some baskets purely off offensive rebounds, but then it would be like "Why is this guy only averaging 12ppg? It's a travesty!! He should create for himself more" etc.

It's pretty weird how people seem to be completely incapable of grasping the limitations of the wing roles in the system the Bulls are playing. It's been explained again and again how the whole thing is based on the interplay between the guards and the center.


Your point would be valid if Lauri posted up or cut to the basket on 50% of the Bulls offensive plays and did not receive the ball. Then you point to the perimeter players for missing him. Lauri floats way to much for a 7 footer, interestingly enough 3 coaches have given up on him being an inside player who can shoot and tried him at SF? Does this say more about the coaches or the player, or his teammates? In my opinion the player has to take 75% of the responsibility in that scenario.

Edit: Make that 4 coaches because he was not forced feed the ball at Arizona either. He is what he is a 7 footer who has a good stroke who wants to be KD with a fraction of KD skill.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1873 » by ZOMG » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:59 am

imagge wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:i genuinely don't know what universe lauri stans are living in when they complain about him not hitting some arbitrary shots metric in every single game. one, he's very obviously not a featured player at this point in his career, so it's not like it's gonna hit the third quarter and billy's gonna go "oh **** we need to get lauri more involved!" when he sees a lower-than-usual number of shots for a bench guy. (for the atlanta game, this is particularly after the nuts first half zach had.)

second, and more importantly, if you're an offensive-oriented player and you play 27 minutes and you only get four shots in the flow of the offense...how is that not on you? the bulls don't run plays and go "ok it's time for lauri to get a shot now" and sometimes they do that 15 times and sometimes they do it 4 times. "other people have to force feed him the ball for him to be good at the one thing he's good at" is not a selling point!


That's such a crazy argument. The goalposts are moving so fast I can't keep up.

For instance, we literally force feed Vucevic the ball all the time. He would be helpless otherwise. It's been pointed out many times recently that you can't even compare the amount of touches he's getting with those received by Markkanen. It's like they're playing a different sport.

It's just a fact that as a non ball handling big, you're dependent on your teammates when it comes to any kind of stable production. Sure Vuc could just manufacture some baskets purely off offensive rebounds, but then it would be like "Why is this guy only averaging 12ppg? It's a travesty!! He should create for himself more" etc.

It's pretty weird how people seem to be completely incapable of grasping the limitations of the wing roles in the system the Bulls are playing. It's been explained again and again how the whole thing is based on the interplay between the guards and the center.


Your point would be valid if Lauri posted up or cut to the basket on 50% of the Bulls offensive plays and did not receive the ball. Then you point to the perimeter players for missing him. Lauri floats way to much for a 7 footer, interestingly enough 3 coaches have given up on him being an inside player who can shoot and tried him at SF? Does this say more about the coaches or the player, or his teammates? In my opinion the player has to take 75% of the responsibility in that scenario.

Edit: Make that 4 coaches because he was not forced feed the ball at Arizona either. He is what he is a 7 footer who has a good stroke who wants to be KD with a fraction of KD skill.


They literally looked for him every time down the floor at Arizona. He was the #1 option. He stopped getting as many touches when Allonzo Trier came back from his suspension and started pounding the ball in the backcourt.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1874 » by imagge » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:08 pm

He stop getting touches because of Trier in college...now I see always someone else’s fault that Lauri isn’t more productive....newsflah Lauri isn’t more productive because of Lauri
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1875 » by dougthonus » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:16 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:It's interesting you feel that way because I feel the Bulls did just about everything they could to sabotage Lauri's development. Obviously not intentionally, they were just grossly incompetent. Not just Lauri either, pretty much all of the young players in recent years have been exposed to a less than ideal development environment. Lauri is just the most blatant example.


I disagree. The Bulls ran more plays to get Lauri open looks than anyone else on the team. The offense was geared almost entirely around getting Lauri touches and open looks. For a guy who gets mostly wide open three point looks, he has never consistently finished.

I don't know what else you want the team to do. Lauri simply isn't that good. His shooting never developed like we thought it would, he certainly never developed any skills to create on his own, pass, defend, or contribute in other ways, and he has never been able to meaningfully take advantage of his size. He struggles with conditioning, effort, and focus and other mental aspects of the game.

At some point, you just say Lauri's development is on Lauri.

I think another team will take a chance on Lauri and bump his touches up closer to what they were his first two years and he'll be the player we all hoped he would become and we'll all be kicking ourselves for letting him slip through our fingers. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


You never know. I think it is hard to bump up the touches of a guy who needs you to run 15 seconds of offense to get him a look because he can't create his own shot.

How many players in this league average more than 10 looks a game but create virtually none of their own offense?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1876 » by coldfish » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:54 pm

dougthonus wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:It's interesting you feel that way because I feel the Bulls did just about everything they could to sabotage Lauri's development. Obviously not intentionally, they were just grossly incompetent. Not just Lauri either, pretty much all of the young players in recent years have been exposed to a less than ideal development environment. Lauri is just the most blatant example.


I disagree. The Bulls ran more plays to get Lauri open looks than anyone else on the team. The offense was geared almost entirely around getting Lauri touches and open looks. For a guy who gets mostly wide open three point looks, he has never consistently finished.

I don't know what else you want the team to do. Lauri simply isn't that good. His shooting never developed like we thought it would, he certainly never developed any skills to create on his own, pass, defend, or contribute in other ways, and he has never been able to meaningfully take advantage of his size. He struggles with conditioning, effort, and focus and other mental aspects of the game.

At some point, you just say Lauri's development is on Lauri.

I think another team will take a chance on Lauri and bump his touches up closer to what they were his first two years and he'll be the player we all hoped he would become and we'll all be kicking ourselves for letting him slip through our fingers. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


You never know. I think it is hard to bump up the touches of a guy who needs you to run 15 seconds of offense to get him a look because he can't create his own shot.

How many players in this league average more than 10 looks a game but create virtually none of their own offense?


Just to back Doug up, no one is going to argue that Lauri is a better shooter than Korver was. His teams had a huge incentive to get him shots AND he was generally a well conditioned player who was willing to run for his shots. He average 10.7 FGA per 36 for his career. His years in Atlanta were his prime and the team was practically built around him. He averaged 10.6 there.

Ryan Anderson was a better shooter than Lauri and a better rebounder (giving him put back opportunities). He was at 14.0.

Lauri? He has averaged 15.5 FGA per 36 for his career. The dude gets an insane number of shots for his skill set.

This line of reasoning is something I have never understood. High volume offensive players create a lot of their own shots. Off ball shooters never get consistently high FGA.

I would love to see an example of where this hasn't played out. Rip Hamilton ran his ass off for shots and was only at 16.2. So did Reggie Miller and he was 13.2.

The fact that Lauri's shot attempts line up with hall of fame level off ball shooters is kind of funny.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1877 » by Louri » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:16 pm

I think that the way Lauri has been used in Bulls during years has also left mark to guards. Like Sato. I hardly ever see him pass ball to Lauri. Now he delivers ball to Vucevic constantly. Is Vucevic that much better at getting open or is coaching staff demanding Sato and Lavine to force feed Vucevic now? I think a bit both. But then again when I watch clips how Vuce gets his shots, I have no idea why Bulls has not tried same things with Lauri during years. Forcing ball to him and get him hot from mid range. Maybe next team will.
"Larry Nance Jr is better than Lauri Markkanen" -RealGM 2021
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1878 » by E-DC » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:30 pm

Here's some date based on something Dougthonus just alluded to.

3-point Shooting
2017-18
2-4 feet Tight: .306
4-6 feet Open: .283
6+ feet Wide Open: .452

2018-19
2-4 feet Tight: .273
4-6 feet Open: .271
6+ feet Wide Open: .432

2019-20
2-4 feet Tight: .333
4-6 feet Open: .295
6+ feet Wide Open: .379

2020-21
2-4 feet Tight: .286
4-6 feet Open: .294
6+ feet Wide Open: .428

Lauri has improved in so many facets of his game this season, but his 3-point shot has never come around. He has to be completely wide open. I love what he has done around the rim this season, he has been absolutely money at 75%, but if he's going to be used as a primary 3-point shooter he has to figure out how to get the ball into the basket when he's even slightly guarded. To me looking at all of the numbers, I would say his strengths need to be reassessed. If you look at the frequency rates below, 2018-19 is more in line with how he should be playing in the NBA.

Shooting Frequency:
2017-18
2-point Frequency: 51%
3-point Frequency: 49%

2018-19
2-point Frequency: 59%
3-point Frequency: 42%

2019-20
2-point Frequency: 46%
3-point Frequency: 54%

2020-21
2-point Frequency: 47%
3-point Frequency: 53%
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1879 » by sco » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:42 pm

Louri wrote:I think that the way Lauri has been used in Bulls during years has also left mark to guards. Like Sato. I hardly ever see him pass ball to Lauri. Now he delivers ball to Vucevic constantly. Is Vucevic that much better at getting open or is coaching staff demanding Sato and Lavine to force feed Vucevic now? I think a bit both. But then again when I watch clips how Vuce gets his shots, I have no idea why Bulls has not tried same things with Lauri during years. Forcing ball to him and get him hot from mid range. Maybe next team will.

They pass the ball to Vuc because he is an allstar C that they just mortgaged the team to get and they want him to get comfortable. Moreover, he is able to take advantage of mismatches. They didn't pass the ball to Lauri as much because he generally showed an inability to score in the post or take advantage of mismatches.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1880 » by the ultimates » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:45 pm

Vucevic gets the ball more than Lauri because he's a better scorer than Lauri point blank period. Vucevic is more adept and savvy at rolling to the basket as well as popping behind the three-point line. Teams actually double him on the post particularly if he's matched against a significantly smaller defender and he's shown he can score against good interior defenders. These are things Lauri can't do so the Bulls don't ask him to do it.

Secondly, Lauri takes half of his shots from three-point range. It is a shot he can't create for himself. He's made 76 three-pointers this season. He's been assisted on 75 of them so somebody is getting him the ball. To expect somebody that limited to get more shots or have more offense run for them is crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/markkla01/shooting/2021
Losing to get high draft picks and hoping they turn into franchise players is not some next level, genius move. That's what teams want to happen in any rebuild/tank or whatever you want to market it as.

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