2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[The Chosen one]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Anything can happen, but it would be really weird for Hayes to not eventually develop a 3P shot. He shoots about 87-88% from the FT line, that's already a top 15 FT shooter in the NBA, almost all of the top 15 FT shooters are good 3P shooters as well, the worst being Brogdon who is still a legit shooter. A lot of elite shooters in that group, like Middleton & Booker.

Rose sticks out as an elite FT shooter and poor 3P shooter, but I think this is really a case of focusing on his driving game as he developed over a jump shot.

Everyone in the top 4 has a lot of risk obviously given what little we know, but I would say Hayes' eventual 3P shooting is one of the least risky developments.

Agreed that there is reason to believe in Hayes shooting, especially over other prospects the Bulls are considering.

But I thought Hayes issue was the lack of elite athleticism combined with no right hand, giving him limited ways to attack nba athletes.

Hayes outside shot is bad. I watched slot of him last season and it got ugly sometimes. His turnovers are woriesome. He had trouble turning the corner vs guards who pressured him. He even got his cookies taken a few times by guards trying to bring the ball up court. That’s not what I want in my point guard.

[Grodoboldo]

I still really like Haliburton and maybe we'd trade down to get him but this guy just looks like a great skillset and size and I just like the way he looks running a team.

Watch on YouTube

I really like him too, but recently I heard a Dunc'd on podcast in which they raised some pertinent points that got me worried about him ( https://pca.st/episode/367656cd-22d9-426c-8f40-0beae306f503 ). They mainly believe that he's not a primary handler in the NBA, which is something I really, REALLY think we should try to address with a high pick, even if it means drafting a guy with a higher bust risk. I'm even looking more into guys like Lewis and Maxey to get a gist on their game and see if I actually prefer them to some of the supposed top 5 picks. I'm also cooling on Deni because of this.

[sco]

I like reading the analysis on this thread. We can debate until we start discussing who we are going to take with #7 in 2021. I think Wiseman will be gone. He is just too good a physical specimen for Golden State to pass up. Especially with them having to deal with Anthony Davis and Jokic. I'm not sold on Edwards, Toppin or Ball. I think if I'm AK and he's on the board I'm taking Deni. I've read all the rasons he might not pan out. Those are legitimate concerns.

But I look at how a guy might be able to mesh with the current roster. I'm not an advocate of BPA and sort it out later. I think you build a team with a blueprint. Pieces have to fit together. It is a team sport. That being said, Deni could be an intriguing fit for us. We can expect plenty of scoring from our backcourt, but not enough playmaking. We have big men with potential, but they have suffered from poor offensive designs by Boylen, and a lack of playmaking from 1-3. Add Deni to the mix. He's only 19. He's pretty well put together for his age. 6-8' or 6-9", about 220 lbs. He lacks definition but an NBA diet and weight training could improve his core strength, explosiveness off the jump, and lateral quickness to some degree. His work ethic has been commended by commentators. He will have trouble defending elite Sfs, but Donovan can scheme up fixes around that. (He coached a 3 guard lineup to defend pretty well.) There is some potential at the defensive end with good player development coupled with the kid's work ethic. But is he pans out think of what he adds. A tall playmaker at the 3 or a guy capable of being a small ball 4 against certain matchups. He can run in transition and see over defenders in the half court. He would have to option to find a big man, kick back to a guard or try scoring on his own. He might never be a Steph or Trae from 3 but we would not need that from him. Just an occasional 3 to keep defenses honest.

And if the gamble on Deni doesn't work out next year's Draft is so loaded with quality wings that we an try again to fill this position of need. But I say take the chance. Deni might be better than some expect. And he'd have a year to learn the NBA game from OPJ and work on his body and his game. We don't need him to start on Day #1. We have OPJ on a contract year. He's liable to stay healthy and perform well in anticipation of getting another good contract here or elsewhere after the season.

First, I respect the counter to the BPA argument, so kudos for putting it out there. I am sure there are many here who agree. So here's my rebuttal.

The NBA has turned into a league of stars, role players, ring-chasing ex-stars, and bench guys. You couple that with FA stars looking for twosomes and threesomes to compete for rings. IMO, taking a non-playoff team to a championship starts with finding a to 10 star for your team that will attract another star or two. Given the twosome/threesome trend, it is almost impossible to land a star through FA without already having one - so your stuck with the draft. As such, drafting guys who have the best shot at being elite over the guy who best fits the team's needs, seems to me to be the smart move. Because teams are always trying to position themselves to land multiple stars, there always seems to be a ton of "good" players who can fill needs available via FA.

The skills to me that make guys elite today center around offense. Guys who can get their own shot (and make them) through speed, size, strength and/or craftiness are the ones that I'd focus on. Eliteness usually couples that with ball handling and passing skills, but those skills are more teachable than shooting as there are many elite ball handlers/passers who never become elite players because they can't score efficiently.

[MrFortune3]

I like reading the analysis on this thread. We can debate until we start discussing who we are going to take with #7 in 2021. I think Wiseman will be gone. He is just too good a physical specimen for Golden State to pass up. Especially with them having to deal with Anthony Davis and Jokic. I'm not sold on Edwards, Toppin or Ball. I think if I'm AK and he's on the board I'm taking Deni. I've read all the rasons he might not pan out. Those are legitimate concerns.

But I look at how a guy might be able to mesh with the current roster. I'm not an advocate of BPA and sort it out later. I think you build a team with a blueprint. Pieces have to fit together. It is a team sport. That being said, Deni could be an intriguing fit for us. We can expect plenty of scoring from our backcourt, but not enough playmaking. We have big men with potential, but they have suffered from poor offensive designs by Boylen, and a lack of playmaking from 1-3. Add Deni to the mix. He's only 19. He's pretty well put together for his age. 6-8' or 6-9", about 220 lbs. He lacks definition but an NBA diet and weight training could improve his core strength, explosiveness off the jump, and lateral quickness to some degree. His work ethic has been commended by commentators. He will have trouble defending elite Sfs, but Donovan can scheme up fixes around that. (He coached a 3 guard lineup to defend pretty well.) There is some potential at the defensive end with good player development coupled with the kid's work ethic. But is he pans out think of what he adds. A tall playmaker at the 3 or a guy capable of being a small ball 4 against certain matchups. He can run in transition and see over defenders in the half court. He would have to option to find a big man, kick back to a guard or try scoring on his own. He might never be a Steph or Trae from 3 but we would not need that from him. Just an occasional 3 to keep defenses honest.

And if the gamble on Deni doesn't work out next year's Draft is so loaded with quality wings that we an try again to fill this position of need. But I say take the chance. Deni might be better than some expect. And he'd have a year to learn the NBA game from OPJ and work on his body and his game. We don't need him to start on Day #1. We have OPJ on a contract year. He's liable to stay healthy and perform well in anticipation of getting another good contract here or elsewhere after the season.

People complain about the lack of defense and BBIQ on the team and then complain about taking Deni.
He's not the "sexy" pick. He's not an athletic marvel who will wow you, he's not some elite shooting dynamo that is going to put up insane stats.

He's just a good all around basketball player who helps make his teammates better and has a improving game.

If Wiseman doesn't fall to us, I want Deni without question. He fits the roster perfectly, he will add to the mix and not take anything away from anyone else.

[TheSuzerain]

I like reading the analysis on this thread. We can debate until we start discussing who we are going to take with #7 in 2021. I think Wiseman will be gone. He is just too good a physical specimen for Golden State to pass up. Especially with them having to deal with Anthony Davis and Jokic. I'm not sold on Edwards, Toppin or Ball. I think if I'm AK and he's on the board I'm taking Deni. I've read all the rasons he might not pan out. Those are legitimate concerns.

But I look at how a guy might be able to mesh with the current roster. I'm not an advocate of BPA and sort it out later. I think you build a team with a blueprint. Pieces have to fit together. It is a team sport. That being said, Deni could be an intriguing fit for us. We can expect plenty of scoring from our backcourt, but not enough playmaking. We have big men with potential, but they have suffered from poor offensive designs by Boylen, and a lack of playmaking from 1-3. Add Deni to the mix. He's only 19. He's pretty well put together for his age. 6-8' or 6-9", about 220 lbs. He lacks definition but an NBA diet and weight training could improve his core strength, explosiveness off the jump, and lateral quickness to some degree. His work ethic has been commended by commentators. He will have trouble defending elite Sfs, but Donovan can scheme up fixes around that. (He coached a 3 guard lineup to defend pretty well.) There is some potential at the defensive end with good player development coupled with the kid's work ethic. But is he pans out think of what he adds. A tall playmaker at the 3 or a guy capable of being a small ball 4 against certain matchups. He can run in transition and see over defenders in the half court. He would have to option to find a big man, kick back to a guard or try scoring on his own. He might never be a Steph or Trae from 3 but we would not need that from him. Just an occasional 3 to keep defenses honest.

And if the gamble on Deni doesn't work out next year's Draft is so loaded with quality wings that we an try again to fill this position of need. But I say take the chance. Deni might be better than some expect. And he'd have a year to learn the NBA game from OPJ and work on his body and his game. We don't need him to start on Day #1. We have OPJ on a contract year. He's liable to stay healthy and perform well in anticipation of getting another good contract here or elsewhere after the season.

People complain about the lack of defense and BBIQ on the team and then complain about taking Deni.
He's not the "sexy" pick. He's not an athletic marvel who will wow you, he's not some elite shooting dynamo that is going to put up insane stats.

He's just a good all around basketball player who helps make his teammates better and has a improving game.

If Wiseman doesn't fall to us, I want Deni without question. He fits the roster perfectly, he will add to the mix and not take anything away from anyone else.

We don't need to add to the mix. We need a new mix. Our mix sucks.

Do you really think that this organization would have fired GarPax if they had actually assembled a good young core?

[MrFortune3]

I like reading the analysis on this thread. We can debate until we start discussing who we are going to take with #7 in 2021. I think Wiseman will be gone. He is just too good a physical specimen for Golden State to pass up. Especially with them having to deal with Anthony Davis and Jokic. I'm not sold on Edwards, Toppin or Ball. I think if I'm AK and he's on the board I'm taking Deni. I've read all the rasons he might not pan out. Those are legitimate concerns.

But I look at how a guy might be able to mesh with the current roster. I'm not an advocate of BPA and sort it out later. I think you build a team with a blueprint. Pieces have to fit together. It is a team sport. That being said, Deni could be an intriguing fit for us. We can expect plenty of scoring from our backcourt, but not enough playmaking. We have big men with potential, but they have suffered from poor offensive designs by Boylen, and a lack of playmaking from 1-3. Add Deni to the mix. He's only 19. He's pretty well put together for his age. 6-8' or 6-9", about 220 lbs. He lacks definition but an NBA diet and weight training could improve his core strength, explosiveness off the jump, and lateral quickness to some degree. His work ethic has been commended by commentators. He will have trouble defending elite Sfs, but Donovan can scheme up fixes around that. (He coached a 3 guard lineup to defend pretty well.) There is some potential at the defensive end with good player development coupled with the kid's work ethic. But is he pans out think of what he adds. A tall playmaker at the 3 or a guy capable of being a small ball 4 against certain matchups. He can run in transition and see over defenders in the half court. He would have to option to find a big man, kick back to a guard or try scoring on his own. He might never be a Steph or Trae from 3 but we would not need that from him. Just an occasional 3 to keep defenses honest.

And if the gamble on Deni doesn't work out next year's Draft is so loaded with quality wings that we an try again to fill this position of need. But I say take the chance. Deni might be better than some expect. And he'd have a year to learn the NBA game from OPJ and work on his body and his game. We don't need him to start on Day #1. We have OPJ on a contract year. He's liable to stay healthy and perform well in anticipation of getting another good contract here or elsewhere after the season.

People complain about the lack of defense and BBIQ on the team and then complain about taking Deni.
He's not the "sexy" pick. He's not an athletic marvel who will wow you, he's not some elite shooting dynamo that is going to put up insane stats.

He's just a good all around basketball player who helps make his teammates better and has a improving game.

If Wiseman doesn't fall to us, I want Deni without question. He fits the roster perfectly, he will add to the mix and not take anything away from anyone else.

We don't need to add to the mix. We need a new mix. Our mix sucks.

Do you really think that this organization would have fired GarPax if they had actually assembled a good young core?

AK and Evs aren't just going to blow up the entire roster and start from scratch like many seem to believe.
They've been open and honest about the approach they plan to take to the roster. They've been open and honest about who they view as good and/or young pieces.
They want to develop the roster and make the playoffs, even saying it's not a rebuild.

They're likely to only add to the mix and use development to see how the current players adjust and then make moves down the road.
So this draft pick is adding to, not making a new mix.

[drosestruts]

A couple of things about Deni:

- When playing in specific U-17 or U-19 tournaments he's looked dominant. I think had he played in college and been playing against his peers we'd all be a lot more excited about him.

- As it is, he played in Euroleague, where he didn't necessarily light the world on fire.

- Most successful European NBA players had more individual success in Euroleague then Deni. It's something to note, but not something that immediately suggests to me that he can't be successful as few of them were having said success at Deni's age (Luka being the obvious exception, but comparing anyone to Luka is starting to look unfair).

To share some stats for Deni's U-20 basketball run:

18 points per game, 8.3 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2 SPG, 2.4 BPG. Shot 43% overall and 28% from 3. In the Semi-Finals and Finals matchups vs France and Spain respectively he shot 41% from 3 and 82% from the free-throw line, so it was nice to see him step his game up in the tournament's biggest games. Suggests to me he's a gamer. You want guys that elevate their games in big moments.

Sharing the highlights below of his game vs France. He got to the line a lot in this game by attacking the rim, you also see him compete on defense, which often stereotypes against European players is they're soft on D, not Deni.

Watch on YouTube

Deni moves around on my personal big board between 2-4. At some point I'll have to lock in my thoughts on these prospects, but I'm clearly able to talk myself into Deni being the right move.

[MrFortune3]

A couple of things about Deni:

- When playing in specific U-17 or U-19 tournaments he's looked dominant. I think had he played in college and been playing against his peers we'd all be a lot more excited about him.

- As it is, he played in Euroleague, where he didn't necessarily light the world on fire.

- Most successful European NBA players had more individual success in Euroleague then Deni. It's something to note, but not something that immediately suggests to me that he can't be successful as few of them were having said success at Deni's age (Luka being the obvious exception, but comparing anyone to Luka is starting to look unfair).

To share some stats for Deni's U-20 basketball run:

18 points per game, 8.3 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2 SPG, 2.4 BPG. Shot 43% overall and 28% from 3. In the Semi-Finals and Finals matchups vs France and Spain respectively he shot 41% from 3 and 82% from the free-throw line, so it was nice to see him step his game up in the tournament's biggest games. Suggests to me he's a gamer. You want guys that elevate their games in big moments.

Sharing the highlights below of his game vs France. He got to the line a lot in this game by attacking the rim, you also see him compete on defense, which often stereotypes against European players is they're soft on D, not Deni.

Watch on YouTube

Deni moves around on my personal big board between 2-4. At some point I'll have to lock in my thoughts on these prospects, but I'm clearly able to talk myself into Deni being the right move.

I cannot wait to see how good he is once he fills out his frame. I don't think he's going to be some 240+ monster, but adding on to his frame with another 5-10 lbs should help him in the NBA and especially on D with some of the small ball 4's and larger 3's.

[MGB8]

A couple of things about Deni:

- When playing in specific U-17 or U-19 tournaments he's looked dominant. I think had he played in college and been playing against his peers we'd all be a lot more excited about him.

- As it is, he played in Euroleague, where he didn't necessarily light the world on fire.

- Most successful European NBA players had more individual success in Euroleague then Deni. It's something to note, but not something that immediately suggests to me that he can't be successful as few of them were having said success at Deni's age (Luka being the obvious exception, but comparing anyone to Luka is starting to look unfair).

To share some stats for Deni's U-20 basketball run:

18 points per game, 8.3 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2 SPG, 2.4 BPG. Shot 43% overall and 28% from 3. In the Semi-Finals and Finals matchups vs France and Spain respectively he shot 41% from 3 and 82% from the free-throw line, so it was nice to see him step his game up in the tournament's biggest games. Suggests to me he's a gamer. You want guys that elevate their games in big moments.

Sharing the highlights below of his game vs France. He got to the line a lot in this game by attacking the rim, you also see him compete on defense, which often stereotypes against European players is they're soft on D, not Deni.

Watch on YouTube

Deni moves around on my personal big board between 2-4. At some point I'll have to lock in my thoughts on these prospects, but I'm clearly able to talk myself into Deni being the right move.

Nice post. My issue with Deni remains that he's simply not a wing. He's a forward, which in the modern NBA generally means he's play the 4 spot, a la Thad Young, Tobias Harris, Aaron Gordon, RHJ, Gallinari, even Durant at this point, etc.

Yeah, MPJr might be an exception - and there are a couple of other people who are non-wings playing the "3" (not including Lebron, who is whatever he wants to be), but with the move towards perimeter play, you simply need more agility and mobility at the "3" on both offense and defense than what a Tobias Harris or Thad Young brings.

You look at that video, and he looks like a 4. He's a very good ball handler for a 4, with a high basketball IQ and good all around offensive game, to include very good from the perimeter *for* *a* *4*. Some very nice plays on D, too - but mostly near the basket as opposed to showing high level of skill on the perimeter. But through-out it all, he doesn't display "wing" quickness or fluidity.

Unless the Bulls are planning to move Lauri to the 5 or move on from him, I don't see the fit. Doesn't mean that Deni wouldn't be the BPA at 4 - but I don't see him as a full tier better than the next level of guys (Vassell, maybe Hayes).

[drosestruts]

A couple of things about Deni:

- When playing in specific U-17 or U-19 tournaments he's looked dominant. I think had he played in college and been playing against his peers we'd all be a lot more excited about him.

- As it is, he played in Euroleague, where he didn't necessarily light the world on fire.

- Most successful European NBA players had more individual success in Euroleague then Deni. It's something to note, but not something that immediately suggests to me that he can't be successful as few of them were having said success at Deni's age (Luka being the obvious exception, but comparing anyone to Luka is starting to look unfair).

To share some stats for Deni's U-20 basketball run:

18 points per game, 8.3 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2 SPG, 2.4 BPG. Shot 43% overall and 28% from 3. In the Semi-Finals and Finals matchups vs France and Spain respectively he shot 41% from 3 and 82% from the free-throw line, so it was nice to see him step his game up in the tournament's biggest games. Suggests to me he's a gamer. You want guys that elevate their games in big moments.

Sharing the highlights below of his game vs France. He got to the line a lot in this game by attacking the rim, you also see him compete on defense, which often stereotypes against European players is they're soft on D, not Deni.

Watch on YouTube

Deni moves around on my personal big board between 2-4. At some point I'll have to lock in my thoughts on these prospects, but I'm clearly able to talk myself into Deni being the right move.

Nice post. My issue with Deni remains that he's simply not a wing. He's a forward, which in the modern NBA generally means he's play the 4 spot, a la Thad Young, Tobias Harris, Aaron Gordon, RHJ, Gallinari, even Durant at this point, etc.

Yeah, MPJr might be an exception - and there are a couple of other people who are non-wings playing the "3" (not including Lebron, who is whatever he wants to be), but with the move towards perimeter play, you simply need more agility and mobility at the "3" on both offense and defense than what a Tobias Harris or Thad Young brings.

You look at that video, and he looks like a 4. He's a very good ball handler for a 4, with a high basketball IQ and good all around offensive game, to include very good from the perimeter *for* *a* *4*. Some very nice plays on D, too - but mostly near the basket as opposed to showing high level of skill on the perimeter. But through-out it all, he doesn't display "wing" quickness or fluidity.

Unless the Bulls are planning to move Lauri to the 5 or move on from him, I don't see the fit. Doesn't mean that Deni wouldn't be the BPA at 4 - but I don't see him as a full tier better than the next level of guys (Vassell, maybe Hayes).

I agree with you here, I view Deni has primarily a 4 and not a 3. I don't think really anyone on our roster is worth not drafting someone over, i don't look at Deni and think "we already have Lauri" or look at Wisemen and think "We already have Carter". If our pick comes up and I had Deni has the best available, I'd want Deni.

It's a bit of a separate discussion but Lauri is going to have to learn to play some 5 in order to maximize his potential in the NBA.

I also certainly don't factor in Thad Young to any sort of long-term plan and feel there'd be plenty of minutes at the 4 spot between Lauri and Deni with Lauri also getting some minutes at the 5, if we were to go this route.

It'd be great for Deni to prove me wrong and show the lateral speed necessary to be a wing, as him adding the versatility of being able to play multiple positions would only make him more valuable in my eyes.

[TheSuzerain]

The Deni analysis is so strange.

For the most part people are accurately assessing him and describing a late lotto pick for the first 90-95% of their Deni posts.

But then the post somehow ends with "he fluctuates between #2 and #4 on my big board".

[MrSparkle]

The Saric comparisons should be canned IMO:

Watch on YouTube

Deni would lap him on the 2nd run. Dario is SO SLOW and un-athletic, it's actually impressive that he's even still in the NBA as a role-player journey-man with a mediocre jump-shot. He's getting by entirely with good hands, vision and footwork. All of which Deni has. The speed comparison is not even close. 18yo Dario looked about as mobile to me as the 40yo versions of Kareem and Parish.

Honestly, Deni's build and movement reminds me of MPJ. Kind of upright and stiff - but fast in the open court. Not as quick a first-step in the half-court. But unlike Saric, he doesn't have a 1" vertical and molasses feet on the break.

And while MPJ has incredible height and a sweet shot with smooth handles, Deni has offensive awareness and passing vision, a clean slate of health and at least demonstrates way more effort and activity on defense. And frankly you look at his shooting videos; his form looks very good. I don't see why it can't improve within 2 years - if you pause the tape before the shot hit rim, Deni has the best looking shot from Hayes, LaMelo and Edwards. I know that sounds preposterous, but a clean and perfected form with reps and work will get you to a competent average in the NBA. Otherwise Ariza, Draymond, PJ Tucker and a whole slew of other guys would've never made a bucket outside the paint. If the coaching staff in Maccabi got him working on it in the last year as he went from a nobody to a top-5 prospect, the FG% doesn't materialize immediately.

[Chi town]

The Saric comparisons should be canned IMO:

Watch on YouTube

Deni would lap him on the 2nd run. Dario is SO SLOW and un-athletic, it's actually impressive that he's even still in the NBA as a role-player journey-man with a mediocre jump-shot. He's getting by entirely with good hands, vision and footwork. All of which Deni has. The speed comparison is not even close. 18yo Dario looked about as mobile to me as the 40yo versions of Kareem and Parish.

Honestly, Deni's build and movement reminds me of MPJ. Kind of upright and stiff - but fast in the open court. Not as quick a first-step in the half-court. But unlike Saric, he doesn't have a 1" vertical and molasses feet on the break.

And while MPJ has incredible height and a sweet shot with smooth handles, Deni has offensive awareness and passing vision, a clean slate of health and at least demonstrates way more effort and activity on defense. And frankly you look at his shooting videos; his form looks very good. I don't see why it can't improve within 2 years - if you pause the tape before the shot hit rim, Deni has the best looking shot from Hayes, LaMelo and Edwards. I know that sounds preposterous, but a clean and perfected form with reps and work will get you to a competent average in the NBA. Otherwise Ariza, Draymond, PJ Tucker and a whole slew of other guys would've never made a bucket outside the paint. If the coaching staff in Maccabi got him working on it in the last year as he went from a nobody to a top-5 prospect, the FG% doesn't materialize immediately.

I think MPJ is Demi’s comp. Very similar body type and movement. Deni has a better handle and passing. MPJ much better shooter and shot creator for himself. Deni is way ahead defensively and his IQ on both sides is much higher.

I think Deni can defend the 3 and 4 just like MPJ does. If he learns to use his height like Lauri hasn’t... he shoots over 3 and goes by 4s.

[MrSparkle]

The Deni analysis is so strange.

For the most part people are accurately assessing him and describing a late lotto pick for the first 90-95% of their Deni posts.

But then the post somehow ends with "he fluctuates between #2 and #4 on my big board".

OK - and Ayton, Bagley, Lonzo and Fultz were assessed as the second-comings of J.C., yet would probably fluctuate between 15 and 50 (in Fultz's case) on everyone's re-draft boards.

I'd like to know what your idea of a "late lotto pick" is. Cause for the rest of the league it seems like Jimmy, Draymond, Boozer, Arenas, Pascal and Gobert.

IMO it's Doug McDermott - a slow, uncreative, overrated All-American who inflated his stats in a particular college situation where he was able to get unlimited touches in the mid-range and post against smaller competition. He should've been drafted after 20, not in the lottery, and i was pretty loud about that.

The point is that these are prospects, so you can't dissect their flaws without comparing their strengths. Anybody whose name is mentioned in an NBA Mock draft has some combination of extraordinary skills. Deni does have some combination of extraordinary skills, thus IMO he is warranted in the top-10. His floor/ceiling/bust can all be debated.

I've seen Deni's FT%, iso shooting and athleticism crapped on, but I still haven't had anybody really give me a bigger knock than "he's good at everything but not great at anything." Which sounds like a mediocre reason to put him below guys with massive red flags (such as Wiseman, Obi and LaMelo).

Otherwise, I'm going to go with the consensus of draft experts and scouts instead of your perception of whether Deni should be a second-rounder. I'll eat my words if we get a crop of all-stars in the 10-20 range that apparently everyone was too stupid to evaluate, but I don't think that's how the draft board works.

We get it ; this isn't the 2003 draft. It's a strange one. Literally nothing makes sense to me; the most athletic player IMO is the oldest player, an All-American with the worst defense (Obi). Lunar opposite of your Hansbrough type. The best and biggest, most athletic prospect with HS hype played 3 NCAA games and has a notebook of red flags. The passing kid virtuoso born with a basketball in his mouth has absolutely horrendous AU-league stats, with easily the worst looking jump-shot in the entire draft (although apparently he can hit 40 ft. floaters in practice) and a 180 lb frame. I thought Edwards was a no-brainer gamble at #1 but apparently he needs to "keep his nose clean" (what does that even mean? Quote from a scout or agent - I thought that was weird).

[TheSuzerain]

The Deni analysis is so strange.

For the most part people are accurately assessing him and describing a late lotto pick for the first 90-95% of their Deni posts.

But then the post somehow ends with "he fluctuates between #2 and #4 on my big board".

OK - and Ayton, Bagley, Lonzo and Fultz were assessed as the second-comings of J.C., yet would probably fluctuate between 15 and 50 (in Fultz's case) on everyone's re-draft boards.

I'd like to know what your idea of a "late lotto pick" is. Cause for the rest of the league it seems like Jimmy, Draymond, Boozer, Arenas, Pascal and Gobert.

IMO it's Doug McDermott - a slow, uncreative, overrated All-American who inflated his stats in a particular college situation where he was able to get unlimited touches in the mid-range and post against smaller competition. He should've been drafted after 20, not in the lottery, and i was pretty loud about that.

The point is that these are prospects, so you can't dissect their flaws without comparing their strengths. Anybody whose name is mentioned in an NBA Mock draft has some combination of extraordinary skills. Deni does have some combination of extraordinary skills, thus IMO he is warranted in the top-10. His floor/ceiling/bust can all be debated.

I've seen Deni's FT%, iso shooting and athleticism crapped on, but I still haven't had anybody really give me a bigger knock than "he's good at everything but not great at anything." Which sounds like a mediocre reason to put him below guys with massive red flags (such as Wiseman, Obi and LaMelo).

Otherwise, I'm going to go with the consensus of draft experts and scouts instead of your perception of whether Deni should be a second-rounder. I'll eat my words if we get a crop of all-stars in the 10-20 range that apparently everyone was too stupid to evaluate, but I don't think that's how the draft board works.

We get it ; this isn't the 2003 draft. It's a strange one. Literally nothing makes sense to me; the most athletic player IMO is the oldest player, an All-American with the worst defense (Obi). Lunar opposite of your Hansbrough type. The best and biggest, most athletic prospect with HS hype played 3 NCAA games and has a notebook of red flags. The passing kid virtuoso born with a basketball in his mouth has absolutely horrendous AU-league stats, with easily the worst looking jump-shot in the entire draft (although apparently he can hit 40 ft. floaters in practice) and a 180 lb frame. I thought Edwards was a no-brainer gamble at #1 but apparently he needs to "keep his nose clean" (what does that even mean? Quote from a scout or agent - I thought that was weird).

Stop over reacting. My position is that Deni belongs in the 10-15 range.

The below is a more thorough analysis on Deni than I've seen from any of the national "draft experts".

https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

[sco]

The Saric comparisons should be canned IMO:

Watch on YouTube

Deni would lap him on the 2nd run. Dario is SO SLOW and un-athletic, it's actually impressive that he's even still in the NBA as a role-player journey-man with a mediocre jump-shot. He's getting by entirely with good hands, vision and footwork. All of which Deni has. The speed comparison is not even close. 18yo Dario looked about as mobile to me as the 40yo versions of Kareem and Parish.

Honestly, Deni's build and movement reminds me of MPJ. Kind of upright and stiff - but fast in the open court. Not as quick a first-step in the half-court. But unlike Saric, he doesn't have a 1" vertical and molasses feet on the break.

And while MPJ has incredible height and a sweet shot with smooth handles, Deni has offensive awareness and passing vision, a clean slate of health and at least demonstrates way more effort and activity on defense. And frankly you look at his shooting videos; his form looks very good. I don't see why it can't improve within 2 years - if you pause the tape before the shot hit rim, Deni has the best looking shot from Hayes, LaMelo and Edwards. I know that sounds preposterous, but a clean and perfected form with reps and work will get you to a competent average in the NBA. Otherwise Ariza, Draymond, PJ Tucker and a whole slew of other guys would've never made a bucket outside the paint. If the coaching staff in Maccabi got him working on it in the last year as he went from a nobody to a top-5 prospect, the FG% doesn't materialize immediately.

I think MPJ is Demi’s comp. Very similar body type and movement. Deni has a better handle and passing. MPJ much better shooter and shot creator for himself. Deni is way ahead defensively and his IQ on both sides is much higher.

I think Deni can defend the 3 and 4 just like MPJ does. If he learns to use his height like Lauri hasn’t... he shoots over 3 and goes by 4s.

Sorry, but saying a guy is a comp, but then saying that the other guy is a much better shooter (and you are right) sorta negates the point of being a comp. It's almost like saying that Jordan is a good comp for Dunn, but MJ was a much better shooter.

[MrSparkle]

The Deni analysis is so strange.

For the most part people are accurately assessing him and describing a late lotto pick for the first 90-95% of their Deni posts.

But then the post somehow ends with "he fluctuates between #2 and #4 on my big board".

OK - and Ayton, Bagley, Lonzo and Fultz were assessed as the second-comings of J.C., yet would probably fluctuate between 15 and 50 (in Fultz's case) on everyone's re-draft boards.

I'd like to know what your idea of a "late lotto pick" is. Cause for the rest of the league it seems like Jimmy, Draymond, Boozer, Arenas, Pascal and Gobert.

IMO it's Doug McDermott - a slow, uncreative, overrated All-American who inflated his stats in a particular college situation where he was able to get unlimited touches in the mid-range and post against smaller competition. He should've been drafted after 20, not in the lottery, and i was pretty loud about that.

The point is that these are prospects, so you can't dissect their flaws without comparing their strengths. Anybody whose name is mentioned in an NBA Mock draft has some combination of extraordinary skills. Deni does have some combination of extraordinary skills, thus IMO he is warranted in the top-10. His floor/ceiling/bust can all be debated.

I've seen Deni's FT%, iso shooting and athleticism crapped on, but I still haven't had anybody really give me a bigger knock than "he's good at everything but not great at anything." Which sounds like a mediocre reason to put him below guys with massive red flags (such as Wiseman, Obi and LaMelo).

Otherwise, I'm going to go with the consensus of draft experts and scouts instead of your perception of whether Deni should be a second-rounder. I'll eat my words if we get a crop of all-stars in the 10-20 range that apparently everyone was too stupid to evaluate, but I don't think that's how the draft board works.

We get it ; this isn't the 2003 draft. It's a strange one. Literally nothing makes sense to me; the most athletic player IMO is the oldest player, an All-American with the worst defense (Obi). Lunar opposite of your Hansbrough type. The best and biggest, most athletic prospect with HS hype played 3 NCAA games and has a notebook of red flags. The passing kid virtuoso born with a basketball in his mouth has absolutely horrendous AU-league stats, with easily the worst looking jump-shot in the entire draft (although apparently he can hit 40 ft. floaters in practice) and a 180 lb frame. I thought Edwards was a no-brainer gamble at #1 but apparently he needs to "keep his nose clean" (what does that even mean? Quote from a scout or agent - I thought that was weird).

Stop over reacting. My position is that Deni belongs in the 10-15 range.

The below is a more thorough analysis on Deni than I've seen from any of the national "draft experts".

https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

It's an interesting article but I find it inconsistent that he included all league stats for the success-stories' PERs (Rubio's ACB and Porzingis for example played in the worse-competition Eurocup), but excluded Deni's Israel-league stats (where he's 17). For a late-bloomer and compared to an experienced veteran by the time he was 18 (in Rubio's case, he had been playing pro since 16 and developed by Barcelona since 14), Deni's later ISBL PER of 17 is quite a jump from 10.4 and should've been atleast averaged in.

Also Bender's Euroleague PER as an athletic big man (finisher, blocker) was worse and alarming (6). Though he seems like a case of a guy whose timidness killed his NBA career before he gave it a real shot, cause Dragan had an impressive mix of skills and size. Deni does not at all seem timid.

And like I said, the Saric comparison is non-sensical; watch the prospect tapes. Dario is a sloth, Deni is fast. Regardless, I find it borderline useless comparing PER stats for entirely different leagues, competition-levels not to mention coaching staffs/game-plans.

Anyway, I'm sure this guy is a draft genius. Here's his 2017 mock, where Tatum goes #5, Fox #11, Bam #25 and Mitchell #42. https://deanondraft.com/2016/12/26/big-board-2-0-going-deeper/

[TheSuzerain]

The Saric comp is not non-sensical. There are obvious similarities. It's certainly closer than an MPJ comp (what the ****?).

Deni is indeed faster as he actually has very nice straight-line speed/burst. Saric doesn't have that. That makes Denia different transition player than Saric, but in the half-court you're not using straight-line speed that much. On the flip side, Saric had plainly better shooting stats and is stronger/stouter. But the whole playmaking forward thing is basically copy/pasted from Saric's scouting report to Deni's.

Statistically, they are similar. Similar accolades from European Youth Tournaments as well (e.g. MVPs).

Sure you can point out differences. Some which are to Deni's benefit. But are they different enough that you think Deni is going to be way above Saric in the NBA hierarchy? I don't see that.

[MrSparkle]

The Saric comp is not non-sensical. There are obvious similarities. It's certainly closer than an MPJ comp (what the ****?).

Deni is indeed faster as he actually has very nice straight-line speed/burst. Saric doesn't have that. That makes Denia different transition player than Saric, but in the half-court you're not using straight-line speed that much. On the flip side, Saric had plainly better shooting stats and is stronger/stouter. But the whole playmaking forward thing is basically copy/pasted from Saric's scouting report to Deni's.

Statistically, they are similar. Similar accolades from European Youth Tournaments as well (e.g. MVPs).

Sure you can point out differences. Some which are to Deni's benefit. But are they different enough that you think Deni is going to be way above Saric in the NBA hierarchy? I don't see that.

MPJ is upright and stiff, despite good vertical and straight-line speed, and they have similar heights- that's what I mean with the Deni physical comparison, who also doesn't look like he has good lateral movement or juke. MPJ's handles and shooting are AAA for his length though.

[Chi town]

The Saric comparisons should be canned IMO:

Watch on YouTube

Deni would lap him on the 2nd run. Dario is SO SLOW and un-athletic, it's actually impressive that he's even still in the NBA as a role-player journey-man with a mediocre jump-shot. He's getting by entirely with good hands, vision and footwork. All of which Deni has. The speed comparison is not even close. 18yo Dario looked about as mobile to me as the 40yo versions of Kareem and Parish.

Honestly, Deni's build and movement reminds me of MPJ. Kind of upright and stiff - but fast in the open court. Not as quick a first-step in the half-court. But unlike Saric, he doesn't have a 1" vertical and molasses feet on the break.

And while MPJ has incredible height and a sweet shot with smooth handles, Deni has offensive awareness and passing vision, a clean slate of health and at least demonstrates way more effort and activity on defense. And frankly you look at his shooting videos; his form looks very good. I don't see why it can't improve within 2 years - if you pause the tape before the shot hit rim, Deni has the best looking shot from Hayes, LaMelo and Edwards. I know that sounds preposterous, but a clean and perfected form with reps and work will get you to a competent average in the NBA. Otherwise Ariza, Draymond, PJ Tucker and a whole slew of other guys would've never made a bucket outside the paint. If the coaching staff in Maccabi got him working on it in the last year as he went from a nobody to a top-5 prospect, the FG% doesn't materialize immediately.

I think MPJ is Demi’s comp. Very similar body type and movement. Deni has a better handle and passing. MPJ much better shooter and shot creator for himself. Deni is way ahead defensively and his IQ on both sides is much higher.

I think Deni can defend the 3 and 4 just like MPJ does. If he learns to use his height like Lauri hasn’t... he shoots over 3 and goes by 4s.

Sorry, but saying a guy is a comp, but then saying that the other guy is a much better shooter (and you are right) sorta negates the point of being a comp. It's almost like saying that Jordan is a good comp for Dunn, but MJ was a much better shooter.

I said body and movement type. Size, length, agility, speed etc are very similar among both.

Their skills packages are different. Their athleticism and body types are very similar and for those saying Deni can’t defend SFs I disagree. I think he will defend them just like
MPJ can.