The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

[DuckIII]

What are his high upside tools? I still don’t see where it is coming from other than pure fan optimism. I can buy that only Lauri was probably a high upside player, but Coby, WCJ and Lauri at least had a potentially elite trait that could have made them special: speed, iq, and shooting respectively. Now none of them have been able to materialize that into a great player, and some miserably so right now.

But Pat has nothing that’s elite. It’s just a “well he’s pretty big, pretty athletic, a pretty good shooter (now). Maybe you can say he could be a physically dominant 3 with his strength, but it’s not clear he’s going to stay a 3 and he really isn’t aggressive in the way you’d want a physically overwhelming player to be.

His athleticism + size/physique for a 19 year old + solid handle and shot for his size and age. That's a pretty full toolkit.

He's got a much deeper toolkit than anyone else the Bulls have drafted in a while. Coby is pretty fast in a straight line. Lauri has a good stroke for a 7 footer. Carter has basically zero high level traits?

It seems you agree, he has a lot of good attributes but nothing great. And that’s before the very debatable comment that his handle and shot are advances for his age. Hard to see stardom based on that.

I don’t really understand the discussion. We need to identify “elite” traits but no matter what anyone says you’re just going to say it’s not elite, right? Because you subjectively disagree?

So yeah, I think he’s got some “elite” looking tools. Given his height, weight and strength, he’s got elite speed with his dribble, explosive leaping ability, and a very low and fast dribble with both hands that he can use to change pace and direction on a dime.

He also looks like a very good shooter. Does he have to be a Curry/Kyrie/Dame type shooter to be “elite” or do we get to put this and all other things in context with his size?

He’s got some elite looking attributes. Yes. Clearly. Unless you define “elite” in a way to be reserved for only the most refined, most athletic, polished players.

Of course, none of this means he’ll end up elite or even really good.

[madvillian]

Was it just me or did he play with a little more emotion last night?

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I would be curious to see P Will in more pick and roll as the screener. Might be a good way to unleash his better skills (midrange j/floater, quick passing) in advantage situations. It could also increase his activity on offense. I think we have him standing in the corners too often.

[TheSuzerain]

One of my PWill takeaways from the Atlanta game, is that we can absolutely get away with playing him at the 5 in some line-ups.

[cjbulls]

His athleticism + size/physique for a 19 year old + solid handle and shot for his size and age. That's a pretty full toolkit.

He's got a much deeper toolkit than anyone else the Bulls have drafted in a while. Coby is pretty fast in a straight line. Lauri has a good stroke for a 7 footer. Carter has basically zero high level traits?

It seems you agree, he has a lot of good attributes but nothing great. And that’s before the very debatable comment that his handle and shot are advances for his age. Hard to see stardom based on that.

I don’t really understand the discussion. We need to identify “elite” traits but no matter what anyone says you’re just going to say it’s not elite, right? Because you subjectively disagree?

So yeah, I think he’s got some “elite” looking tools. Given his height, weight and strength, he’s got elite speed with his dribble, explosive leaping ability, and a very low and fast dribble with both hands that he can use to change pace and direction on a dime.

He also looks like a very good shooter. Does he have to be a Curry/Kyrie/Dame type shooter to be “elite” or do we get to put this and all other things in context with his size?

He’s got some elite looking attributes. Yes. Clearly. Unless you define “elite” in a way to be reserved for only the most refined, most athletic, polished players.

Of course, none of this means he’ll end up elite or even really good.

I’m not going to argue subjective stuff with you because statements like the one you made don’t bear out. To say he has elite speed with a great dribble, etc. is a bit much when he is yet to dribble past a guy 1-on-1 10 games into the season (about 200 minutes now I’d guess).

So yeah, you don’t have to get me, but nothing Pat has done stands out other than his leaping (not all that helpful on its own), poise (which is impressive, but players develop poise so I’m not sure being ahead of the game here matters long-term), and confidence in his pull up (which I’m not sure is a positive thing in the short and possibly long term). To be elite in the nba, you need an elite trait and I’m not seeing it no matter how much you try to dress up your analysis.

I sat there watching James Johnson yesterday and thought rookie JJ and Pat were actually pretty similar. Pat certainly has room to get better, JJ never maxed out his career. But the comparisons to all-time nba players like Kawhi are all just a bit too silly for me when he looks not much different than a lot of other average nba guys.

[DuckIII]

I would be curious to see P Will in more pick and roll as the screener. Might be a good way to unleash his better skills (midrange j/floater, quick passing) in advantage situations. It could also increase his activity on offense. I think we have him standing in the corners too often.

This is by design for now, I think. Like I said elsewhere, Chicago has a lot of mouths to feed and he’s Oliver Twist. They are easing him in.

Interestingly, starting him is a way to relieve pressure on him. I would not all be surprised if, when Donovan decides its time for P Willy to be more of a focal point offensively with plays being run in which he is a primary option rather than a bail out, he’ll actually move him to the bench.

[DuckIII]

It seems you agree, he has a lot of good attributes but nothing great. And that’s before the very debatable comment that his handle and shot are advances for his age. Hard to see stardom based on that.

I don’t really understand the discussion. We need to identify “elite” traits but no matter what anyone says you’re just going to say it’s not elite, right? Because you subjectively disagree?

So yeah, I think he’s got some “elite” looking tools. Given his height, weight and strength, he’s got elite speed with his dribble, explosive leaping ability, and a very low and fast dribble with both hands that he can use to change pace and direction on a dime.

He also looks like a very good shooter. Does he have to be a Curry/Kyrie/Dame type shooter to be “elite” or do we get to put this and all other things in context with his size?

He’s got some elite looking attributes. Yes. Clearly. Unless you define “elite” in a way to be reserved for only the most refined, most athletic, polished players.

Of course, none of this means he’ll end up elite or even really good.

I’m not going to argue subjective stuff with you because statements like the one you made don’t bear out. To say he has elite speed with a great dribble, etc. is a bit much when he is yet to dribble past a guy 1-on-1 10 games into the season (about 200 minutes now I’d guess).

So yeah, you don’t have to get me, but nothing Pat has done stands out other than his leaping (not all that helpful on its own), poise (which is impressive, but players develop poise so I’m not sure being ahead of the game here matters long-term), and confidence in his pull up (which I’m not sure is a positive thing in the short and possibly long term). To be elite in the nba, you need an elite trait and I’m not seeing it no matter how much you try to dress up your analysis.

I sat there watching James Johnson yesterday and thought rookie JJ and Pat were actually pretty similar. Pat certainly has room to get better, JJ never maxed out his career. But the comparisons to all-time nba players like Kawhi are all just a bit too silly for me when he looks not much different than a lot of other average nba guys.

You’ll never see me compare P Willy to Kawhi or anyone else. But you also won’t see me concede that he has no potentially elite traits, because he does both physically and with his skills at this stage.

The rest of your post is what I thought it would be. You setting up a premise just to shoot down whatever is said to the contrary because it’s all subjective. Boring.

[madvillian]

I would be curious to see P Will in more pick and roll as the screener. Might be a good way to unleash his better skills (midrange j/floater, quick passing) in advantage situations. It could also increase his activity on offense. I think we have him standing in the corners too often.

This is by design for now, I think. Like I said elsewhere, Chicago has a lot of mouths to feed and he’s Oliver Twist. They are easing him in.

Interestingly, starting him is a way to relieve pressure on him. I would not all be surprised if, when Donovan decides its time for P Willy to be more of a focal point offensively with plays being run in which he is a primary option rather than a bail out, he’ll actually move him to the bench.

If it's not broke don't fix it. He's working well with the starters and as long as Porter is OK with a bench role (still gets his 30 minutes) I'd keep him starting when Lauri gets back.

For the reason you noted -- less pressure surrounded by better offensive options -- I like him starting.

[DuckIII]

I would be curious to see P Will in more pick and roll as the screener. Might be a good way to unleash his better skills (midrange j/floater, quick passing) in advantage situations. It could also increase his activity on offense. I think we have him standing in the corners too often.

This is by design for now, I think. Like I said elsewhere, Chicago has a lot of mouths to feed and he’s Oliver Twist. They are easing him in.

Interestingly, starting him is a way to relieve pressure on him. I would not all be surprised if, when Donovan decides its time for P Willy to be more of a focal point offensively with plays being run in which he is a primary option rather than a bail out, he’ll actually move him to the bench.

If it's not broke don't fix it. He's working well with the starters and as long as Porter is OK with a bench role (still gets his 30 minutes) I'd keep him starting when Lauri gets back.

For the reason you noted -- less pressure surrounded by better offensive options -- I like him starting.

I do too. But there is going to come a time later this season when standing in the corner as the 5th option bail out isn’t going to be cutting it for his development. He’s going to need to have more responsibility as a primary option on the floor. And that likely will only come with the second unit or if we trade a bunch of main players at the deadline.

I like the patient approach with P Willy, but this can’t be his role the whole season.

[Chi town]

I would be curious to see P Will in more pick and roll as the screener. Might be a good way to unleash his better skills (midrange j/floater, quick passing) in advantage situations. It could also increase his activity on offense. I think we have him standing in the corners too often.

Last night BillyD finally tried it late in the game and one of the guards bothched it and then PW was on the bench for Thad.

I think he will be in the PnR in the future alot but Bulls want to help him learn in steps and strides. He can still improve in his current role and we see him doing that. I anticipate more PnR this season for him for sure.

[cjbulls]

I don’t really understand the discussion. We need to identify “elite” traits but no matter what anyone says you’re just going to say it’s not elite, right? Because you subjectively disagree?

So yeah, I think he’s got some “elite” looking tools. Given his height, weight and strength, he’s got elite speed with his dribble, explosive leaping ability, and a very low and fast dribble with both hands that he can use to change pace and direction on a dime.

He also looks like a very good shooter. Does he have to be a Curry/Kyrie/Dame type shooter to be “elite” or do we get to put this and all other things in context with his size?

He’s got some elite looking attributes. Yes. Clearly. Unless you define “elite” in a way to be reserved for only the most refined, most athletic, polished players.

Of course, none of this means he’ll end up elite or even really good.

I’m not going to argue subjective stuff with you because statements like the one you made don’t bear out. To say he has elite speed with a great dribble, etc. is a bit much when he is yet to dribble past a guy 1-on-1 10 games into the season (about 200 minutes now I’d guess).

So yeah, you don’t have to get me, but nothing Pat has done stands out other than his leaping (not all that helpful on its own), poise (which is impressive, but players develop poise so I’m not sure being ahead of the game here matters long-term), and confidence in his pull up (which I’m not sure is a positive thing in the short and possibly long term). To be elite in the nba, you need an elite trait and I’m not seeing it no matter how much you try to dress up your analysis.

I sat there watching James Johnson yesterday and thought rookie JJ and Pat were actually pretty similar. Pat certainly has room to get better, JJ never maxed out his career. But the comparisons to all-time nba players like Kawhi are all just a bit too silly for me when he looks not much different than a lot of other average nba guys.

You’ll never see me compare P Willy to Kawhi or anyone else. But you also won’t see me concede that he has no potentially elite traits, because he does both physically and with his skills at this stage.

The rest of your post is what I thought it would be. You setting up a premise just to shoot down whatever is said to the contrary because it’s all subjective. Boring.

Sorry, I’m not here to entertain you. There is no choice in responding when people state subjective characteristics that aren’t there. Right now he is only capable of creating based on other player’s actions, which limits his ceiling.

If you see him with excellent speed and handle, good for you, send me a clip of him driving by his man one on one, because I must have missed it. Certainly, a guy with that type of elite trait would have done it at least once per game, if not much more.

[Grodoboldo]

Good sum up of last night:

Read on Twitter

@StephNoh: Here's a little package (offense and defense) of what Patrick Williams did against the Mavs last night, with some short notes included.

I'll do more of these throughout the season if there's interest. https://t.co/hPy4IdQQ8l

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I would be curious to see P Will in more pick and roll as the screener. Might be a good way to unleash his better skills (midrange j/floater, quick passing) in advantage situations. It could also increase his activity on offense. I think we have him standing in the corners too often.

This is by design for now, I think. Like I said elsewhere, Chicago has a lot of mouths to feed and he’s Oliver Twist. They are easing him in.

Interestingly, starting him is a way to relieve pressure on him. I would not all be surprised if, when Donovan decides its time for P Willy to be more of a focal point offensively with plays being run in which he is a primary option rather than a bail out, he’ll actually move him to the bench.

His role is definitely stripped down intentionally, but I don't think it'd put more of a burden on P Will or the offense to throw him in P &R where he'd get cleaner looks/reads than he's creating in iso.

It might mean deprioritizing some other development projects, like Wendell in DHO. You could also give P Will those reps in line-ups with Lauri at center. 4/5 P&R with P Will as the screener or the handler could be a lot of fun in that combo.

In a nutshell, I'm not sure alternating P Will between an iso guy and a relatively inactive floor spacer does him justice. That's reductive I realize, but it's what I'm seeing often enough.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Good sum up of last night:

Read on Twitter

@StephNoh: Here's a little package (offense and defense) of what Patrick Williams did against the Mavs last night, with some short notes included.

I'll do more of these throughout the season if there's interest. https://t.co/hPy4IdQQ8l

If PW tightens up that handle and becomes more aggressive he is going to be a good 2-way player. Love the defense shown in the first clips, good footwork and positioning.

[logical_art]

In no way does PWill have a full toolkit. That's just flatly wrong.

The entire appeal of PWill is that he's very good physically (although not great), and he's young enough (he's super young) that there's legit hope that he can develop his tools significantly. We've already seen improvements in his skills since college. He also seems solid/bright in his interviews.

I think the odds of him becoming a straight-up star are low (although not zero) as he'd need Kawhi/Butler outlier development. We'll know more on that front next season after he's had an entire offseason to train. But he seems a reasonable bet to becoming an above average starter on a playoff team at a position of value/versatility.

I don't think full toolkit means that someone is a perfect player. It means they have a bunch of tools available, especially adjusting for age. Do you disagree.

[logical_art]

What are his high upside tools? I still don’t see where it is coming from other than pure fan optimism. I can buy that only Lauri was probably a high upside player, but Coby, WCJ and Lauri at least had a potentially elite trait that could have made them special: speed, iq, and shooting respectively. Now none of them have been able to materialize that into a great player, and some miserably so right now.

But Pat has nothing that’s elite. It’s just a “well he’s pretty big, pretty athletic, a pretty good shooter (now). Maybe you can say he could be a physically dominant 3 with his strength, but it’s not clear he’s going to stay a 3 and he really isn’t aggressive in the way you’d want a physically overwhelming player to be.

His athleticism + size/physique for a 19 year old + solid handle and shot for his size and age. That's a pretty full toolkit.

He's got a much deeper toolkit than anyone else the Bulls have drafted in a while. Coby is pretty fast in a straight line. Lauri has a good stroke for a 7 footer. Carter has basically zero high level traits?

It seems you agree, he has a lot of good attributes but nothing great. And that’s before the very debatable comment that his handle and shot are advances for his age. Hard to see stardom based on that.

I think his frame + athleticism + age is pretty elite. Combine that with some established skills - he's not a completely raw player, and you have an intriguing package with high upside. I don't know enough about his temperament to know if it gives him a better chance of reaching his upside, but from the few interviews I've watched, he seems like a pretty bright and motivated guy. His floating is a little bit of a concern though.

[fleet]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Wiseman number 1 rookie. When the Bulls use him more as rim protection the numbers should improve. Now he gets a lot of help blocks. Similarly his rebounding when they start asking him to crash the boards.

[samwana]

What I have seen with Pat is that he let's the game come to him. Most of the time he feels out an opponent in the first quarter and finds his opportunity in the rest of the game. He's very unselfish a little to his detriment because his teammates get the steals, rebounds and assists from the work he has done. I'm sure BD isn't stuck on stats though, so it's all fine.

I like him and I'm looking forward to him getting a bigger role in both offense and defense. You can see the talent is there and with a little more experience he can become a very good player.

Sent from my POT-LX1 using RealGM mobile app

[TheSuzerain]

In no way does PWill have a full toolkit. That's just flatly wrong.

The entire appeal of PWill is that he's very good physically (although not great), and he's young enough (he's super young) that there's legit hope that he can develop his tools significantly. We've already seen improvements in his skills since college. He also seems solid/bright in his interviews.

I think the odds of him becoming a straight-up star are low (although not zero) as he'd need Kawhi/Butler outlier development. We'll know more on that front next season after he's had an entire offseason to train. But he seems a reasonable bet to becoming an above average starter on a playoff team at a position of value/versatility.

I don't think full toolkit means that someone is a perfect player. It means they have a bunch of tools available, especially adjusting for age. Do you disagree.

I disagree with the adjusting for age part. Things don't get graded on a scale on an NBA court.

[MrSparkle]

I love great defensive players. PW has potential to be an elite defender; not there now, but can be with work.

I disliked Pax’s defensive players cause they often had the worst offensive games amongst starters. No-dribble Deng; no-shot Noah; black-hole brick Taj; dribble-under-and-past-the-rim and clank-a-jumper-Kirk.

PW has these guys’ strong defensive traits, while also having a much more confident jumpshot and a floater.. and finally hybrid position athleticism and size. Handles are stiff but they’re not broke.

So you aren’t looking at Luka/Lebron. That much is correct. But it’s pretty nice that Donovan is playing PW consistent good minutes and Pat actually helps the team more than hurts.