It feels like 4 on 5 when BOGANS is in the Game

[Cliff Levingston]

100 minus 37 = 90?

I (possibly mis) read that as 90% of the time he's not hot from 3 point land.

Not counting Korver, Brewer and Watson who are key contributors off the bench at crucial positions, what do you suggest he does?

Cliff, why on earth would we not count three players who are possibly *all* better than Bogans?

Chemistry is important.

It is, but winning is more important. The Bulls have been getting off to poor starts and not showing chemistry to start the game.

And before someone brings up that Bogans can't be blamed for anything, if he's not part of the solution, he's probably part of the problem.

Cliff Levingston was addressing biggestbullsfan's reaction to your post.

Fact is, Bogans has been shooting well from 3 point land the last month and a half and that's all he's asked to do in the offense. If he's shooting well then why get upset about that?

Also, regarding the bench, the situation is what it is. Thibodeau isn't going to move key bench players into starting roles unless he has to, that's why Kurt Thomas stepped into the starting lineup for Boozer instead of Taj when he sprained his ankle.

Here's the facts:

Thibodeau's rotation is set and Bogans is in it
Bogans has only got better as the season has progressed
We've heard countless times how great the chemistry is on this team
The Bulls really just want a guy to space the floor and play some D from the starting 2
Thibodeau loves Brewer and Korver off the bench
Bulls FO knows they need an upgrade there and tried to get one at the deadline
Bulls FO made the right decision not giving up Omer or Taj and counting on Bogans who's got better
We've been damn, damn good the last month and a half
We've got a 2 game lead on the 2nd seeded team in the East

What indication is there that the Bulls would or should make a pretty significant change now? They had all the reason to do so earlier in the year and didn't when Bogans was a disaster. Now, we lose our first game in about 3 weeks because the entire team played like crap and all of a sudden it's Bogans' fault? No.

[kyrv]

Yeah, lets mess with the lineup when were in 1st place with what, 8 games left? Sounds like a great idea.

No, let's lose the 1 seed because we wouldn't adjust with 9 games left.

The are winning this year BECAUSE OF Bogans. Let's be clear.

So, are you saying Kyrv that " If we lose the first seed, it's because Thibs played Bogans as starter at the 2 guard"?

If you are asking if a team can win more games playing their best players, it's quite possible they can, yes.

Related to that, do you use the 9 games and hope Boozer/Noah start to gel or do you the #1 seed is more important, we can worry about that next year, they both don't have to start. Bulls don't have to start their best players.

[Cliff Levingston]

This thread is about 2 months old.

Keith, whilst not a great player has been more than servicable of late.

When is 37% considered poor 3 point shooting? I would also expect his FG% to mirror his 3P% seeing most of his shots a deep ones from the corner or on the 45.

Is he replaceable? Most definitly.

Look at the other contenders, they have weak guys in their starting unit aswell.

The Heat play Damp and Bibby, Boston has Kristic, LA has Fisher and Artest to an extent.

I aint worried.

OKC has Sefolosha, Perkins and Ibaka in the starting lineup. None of those guys can be considered an average offensive player, yet at least.

[GoBlue72391]

The Man on makes 37% of his 3 point shots and only shoots 39% from the field period. Its an Embarrassment to the SG position becuase he doesn't even take that many shots and is averaging 17minutes a Game as a freaking STARTER!

Defensive Specialist you say? PLEASE!?!? His Defense isn't all that great. He's a Token Defener using his Vet Status to get by. He hasn't really locked down or even remotely stopped anyone from doing ANYTHING.

Getting big leads on us early in the PLAYOFFS will happen due to the fact that you only have 3 reliable scorers in your starting lineup along with Noah doing more than his actual job is on the glass, boards, and in Defense.

The top Playoff Teams will indeed double and tripple Rose just like Indiana and Philly did to beat us. They may not excercise it NOW, but they will LATER. For us to be sussessful and not have an upset happen, Korver and Watson will have to play their Best Games because Bogans can and has been left Wide Open and he rarely completes more than 2 to 3 shots per game.

This thread would have made a lot more sense had it been made back at the beginning of the season when Bogans was stinking up the joint, as opposed to now when he's playing about the best he's capable of, which is pretty damn good, considering what we ask of our starting SG.

His hesitation is all but gone, if he has an open look he's going to take it and chances are he'll make it at a solid clip. He's even been driving to the basket as of late, something he never even would have considered earlier in the season. He's also been a surprisingly good finisher on the break as well. His defense is neither as good nor as bad as some people make it out to be. He's solid defensively, which when combined with his solid shooting gives a pretty clear reason why he's starting over Brewer and Korver.

Brewer may be a better defender but he doesn't stretch the floor. Korver may be the better shooter but his defense is lacking. Bogans gives us the best of both words in the short amount of time that he's out there. He's really only the starter in name only.

Bogans is still our weakest link in the starting lineup, even though he's not really a starter per se, but he hasn't been a liability for awhile now.

He's just a solid player who goes out there every night and does what Thibs asks of him.

It's also worth noting that starting Bogans gives us the luxury of keeping either Brewer or Korver on the bench, which is a big reason why we have arguably the best bench in the league.

Again, the timing of this thread is just bizarre. Why not make a thread about how Rose can't shoot or defend or how Deng keeps taking long two's? They would be about as relevant as this one.

Had this discussion been made in December or so then I'd be right there with you.

[jcuuofd]

The Bulls have the 2nd best point differential in the league. When Bogans is on the floor they have a point differential that would come out to 10th in the league.

What's your point? (oh, point...a pun )

At this point I don't know why people continue to be surprised when the starters "come out slow". They aren't coming out slow, they are just playing to the level they have all year with Bogans.

They are still a winning team with him on the floor, but just not nearly so dominant a team as they are overall and even more so when he's on the bench.

This exactly.

Bogans would be a better fit in the second unit.

I would like to see this starting lineup:

PG -Rose
SG -Korver
SF -Deng
PF -Boozer
C -Noah

I would like to see this second unit:

PG -Watson
SG -Bogans
SF - Brewer
PF -Taj
C -Asik

[step]

OKC has Sefolosha, Perkins and Ibaka in the starting lineup. None of those guys can be considered an average offensive player, yet at least.

But with Sefolosha & Perkins, their defensive contributions are far greater than Bogans. (Haven't watched Ibaka closely enough to add him into that group)

[Rerisen]

OKC has Sefolosha, Perkins and Ibaka in the starting lineup. None of those guys can be considered an average offensive player, yet at least.

But with Sefolosha & Perkins, their defensive contributions are far greater than Bogans. (Haven't watched Ibaka closely enough to add him into that group)

Not only that, but OKC role players play with *two* super dominant offensive players, making their limitations less noticeable.

If the Bulls had LeBron next to Rose, or even Carmelo, I don't think Bogans would be near as big an issue.

Obviously Miami plays with several 'scrubs' in the their starting lineup, but they still have a top 5 offense in the league.

[Rerisen]

You can look at Bogans efficiency and think, "hey its not bad at all". But once you look at the shots he's getting, its very mediocre, and actually disappointing for a guy who is supposed to be bringing 3pt shooting and spacing as his only offensive attribute.

Simply stated, a shooter should be way above league average efficiency (where he's at) if taking only wide open shots.

If Korver started for instance, I think one of two things would happen. One, if he got the same wiiiiide open looks as Bogans his efficiency would rocket up (probably around to James Jones .620 on the Heat; right now Korver's is at .580). Or two, teams would not let him get that open, would not leave him, and the floor would be greatly opened for Rose to work and for other players.

[Slap]

Don't worry JRich is on his way to Chicago.

[SexualChocolate]

The Man on makes 37% of his 3 point shots and only shoots 39% from the field period. Its an Embarrassment to the SG position becuase he doesn't even take that many shots and is averaging 17minutes a Game as a freaking STARTER!

Defensive Specialist you say? PLEASE!?!? His Defense isn't all that great. He's a Token Defener using his Vet Status to get by. He hasn't really locked down or even remotely stopped anyone from doing ANYTHING.

Getting big leads on us early in the PLAYOFFS will happen due to the fact that you only have 3 reliable scorers in your starting lineup along with Noah doing more than his actual job is on the glass, boards, and in Defense.

The top Playoff Teams will indeed double and tripple Rose just like Indiana and Philly did to beat us. They may not excercise it NOW, but they will LATER. For us to be sussessful and not have an upset happen, Korver and Watson will have to play their Best Games because Bogans can and has been left Wide Open and he rarely completes more than 2 to 3 shots per game.

This thread would have made a lot more sense had it been made back at the beginning of the season when Bogans was stinking up the joint, as opposed to now when he's playing about the best he's capable of, which is pretty damn good, considering what we ask of our starting SG.

His hesitation is all but gone, if he has an open look he's going to take it and chances are he'll make it at a solid clip. He's even been driving to the basket as of late, something he never even would have considered earlier in the season. He's also been a surprisingly good finisher on the break as well. His defense is neither as good nor as bad as some people make it out to be. He's solid defensively, which when combined with his solid shooting gives a pretty clear reason why he's starting over Brewer and Korver.

Brewer may be a better defender but he doesn't stretch the floor. Korver may be the better shooter but his defense is lacking. Bogans gives us the best of both words in the short amount of time that he's out there. He's really only the starter in name only.

Bogans is still our weakest link in the starting lineup, even though he's not really a starter per se, but he hasn't been a liability for awhile now.

He's just a solid player who goes out there every night and does what Thibs asks of him.

It's also worth noting that starting Bogans gives us the luxury of keeping either Brewer or Korver on the bench, which is a big reason why we have arguably the best bench in the league.

Again, the timing of this thread is just bizarre. Why not make a thread about how Rose can't shoot or defend or how Deng keeps taking long two's? They would be about as relevant as this one.

Had this discussion been made in December or so then I'd be right there with you.

A few good recent games doesn't make up for an Entire Season.
The man is a NON FACTOR!
Overrated Defense because he has no other strength in his game. That and he's 6.6.

[Linguistik]

Keith Bogans to Derrick Rose is like Ron Harper to MJ.

The guy who's just "there" and doesn't do much.

I seriously can't remember Harper doing anything of any significance during the second-three-peat. I mean I can remember Bill Wennington and Luc Longley, even Randy Brown having some moments here and there. But I can't remember Harper doing anything.

[SexualChocolate]

You can look at Bogans efficiency and think, "hey its not bad at all". But once you look at the shots he's getting, its very mediocre, and actually disappointing for a guy who is supposed to be bringing 3pt shooting and spacing as his only offensive attribute.

Simply stated, a shooter should be way above league average efficiency (where he's at) if taking only wide open shots.

If Korver started for instance, I think one of two things would happen. One, if he got the same wiiiiide open looks as Bogans his efficiency would rocket up (probably around to James Jones .620 on the Heat; right now Korver's is at .580). Or two, teams would not let him get that open, would not leave him, and the floor would be greatly opened for Rose to work and for other players.

THANK YOU!

Might as well start Korver. Talk about his defense all you like but, What has Bogans Defense done lately? Seriouly, he's not even IN the 4th quarter at all. He AVERAGES 17 MINUTES a Game!

And we we DO need "Defensive Specialists" hey, don't we usually roll with BREWER???

[SexualChocolate]

Keith Bogans to Derrick Rose is like Ron Harper to MJ.

The guy who's just "there" and doesn't do much.

I seriously can't remember Harper doing anything of any significance during the second-three-peat. I mean I can remember Bill Wennington and Luc Longley, even Randy Brown having some moments here and there. But I can't remember Harper doing anything.

You a RON HARPER LIE!

Ron Harper was actually a borderline STAR BEFORE his knees went out and even when they DID and he came here, he could actually Score and play REAL defense.

I'm glad you said that...

Because I KNOW thats the reason why we are sticking with him but Bogans is NOT...I repeat... NOT Ron Harper.
In his MotherFreaking DREAMS!

[Rerisen]

I seriously can't remember Harper doing anything of any significance during the second-three-peat. I mean I can remember Bill Wennington and Luc Longley, even Randy Brown having some moments here and there. But I can't remember Harper doing anything.

Harper averaged about a 14 PER over the 2nd three peat. So he was more productive than Bogans. He actually did play very good defense often on some of the toughest covers we faced.

He also still always retained that scorer's instinct of his youth and could surprise you with a few big plays. He wasn't hugely prolific on offense no, but he could do more than just stand on the arc twiddling his thumbs.

[SexualChocolate]

I seriously can't remember Harper doing anything of any significance during the second-three-peat. I mean I can remember Bill Wennington and Luc Longley, even Randy Brown having some moments here and there. But I can't remember Harper doing anything.

Harper averaged about a 14 PER over the 2nd three peat. So he was more productive than Bogans. He actually did play very good defense often on some of the toughest covers we faced.

He also still always retained that scorer's instinct of his youth and could surprise you with a few big plays. He wasn't hugely prolific on offense no, but he could do more than just stand on the arc twiddling his thumbs.

[m_willis01]

Boozer & bogans need to have Plays run for them right at the start of the game.

Heat do this with Bosh and get him established right away, then Lebron, & Wade

then Closes it Out.

[Red Larrivee]

Rerisen's right. The Harper/Bogans comparison actually entered my mind a couple days ago in class. Then I remembered how valuable Harper was defensively, and he was still a capable scorer in spurts.

I'm not worried about it much tho. Brewer will probably enter quicker in the playoffs than usual, and we'll close with Korver like we always do.

Boozer & bogans need to have Plays run for them right at the start of the game.

Heat do this with Bosh and get him established right away, then Lebron, & Wade

then Closes it Out.

We're not wasting our offensive possessions running plays for Bogans. It's the equivalent of saying the Heat need to establish Joel Anthony early.

[m_willis01]

^^ All I meant is Thibs should consider Scripting the 1st 5-10 plays or so either

for Boozer/bogans so that we don't loook Lost right off the Bat as we have.

[jcuuofd]

Rerisen's right. The Harper/Bogans comparison actually entered my mind a couple days ago in class. Then I remembered how valuable Harper was defensively, and he was still a capable scorer in spurts.

I'm not worried about it much tho. Brewer will probably enter quicker in the playoffs than usual, and we'll close with Korver like we always do.

Boozer & bogans need to have Plays run for them right at the start of the game.

Heat do this with Bosh and get him established right away, then Lebron, & Wade

then Closes it Out.

We're not wasting our offensive possessions running plays for Bogans. It's the equivalent of saying the Heat need to establish Joel Anthony early.

I'd rather see Korver in at the beginning of the game than Brewer. The Bulls have consistently struggled on offense during the 1st quarter all year long. Derrick has had to pull the Bulls out of too many deficits during the second half of games this year. It has been amazing to see him do it all year long, but it is not a good position for the Bulls to put themselves in and it could be avoided with better offense in the first half.

[SexualChocolate]

^^ All I meant is Thibs should consider Scripting the 1st 5-10 plays or so either

for Boozer/bogans so that we don't loook Lost right off the Bat as we have.

Why are you trying to pair Boozer with Bogans as if Bogans is remotely close to being anywhere near Boozer's level?

Establishing Boozer makes sense obviously because it gets the post game established early. Thats cool.

But Bogans? Seriously...

After he clanks or even happens to knock his first one in, then what? Thats pretty much IT for him most of the time and you KNOW IT.