Complete Rose/Williams to Boozer Pick and Roll Tutorial

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

We have to start running scenario 5 because that was absolutely deadly

This is a beautiful breakdown. Thank you Alucryts.

Seems to be a combination of Rose running the p'n'r , boozer being out of his comfort scoring zone, and thib's scheme running the pick and roll at the 3 point line.

You know what....... Thibs is a defensive coach. Maybe he needs to bring in a offensive coach.

alucryts and Thibs working together would be devastating

FIXED.

[bentheredengthat]

wow alucryts, when I asked for more stuff like this I didn't know what I was asking for!

I'm gonna have to come back when I have more time to properly digest...

[alucryts]

wow alucryts, when I asked for more stuff like this I didn't know what I was asking for!

I'm gonna have to come back when I have more time to properly digest...

This is what happens when I have Christmas break + a lot of time + Synergy Videos.

[Ajosu]

Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.

Self-admittedly, his IQ isn't that high. For as unselfish as he is, he really doesn't have a great understanding about how to mesh his game with those around him.

Let me use some football terminology. I see too much "one or the other," where each play really has only one option for a shot. Rather, I want to see plays that have a heirarchy of options, where he can go through his progression of checkdowns, and react to what the defense is doing. I mean his pure instincts are good, especially when he takes on the defense by himself. But his ability to read and react could improve a lot.

EDIT: The offense just doesn't always flow properly. If one thing doesn't work, then there's a stall (occasionally a jump pass flirting with disaster), and then back out and start over. By that time, the shot clock is winding down and we need a bail out shot.

[alucryts]

To make a long story short, looking at Nash/Amare, the Suns used scenario 2 almost exclusively. It works so well because their spacing is absolutely out of this world and Amare is about 10 times as athletic as Boozer. Amare is able to beat a rotating defender in the paint 1 on 1 a lot more effectively than Boozer. however, the Utah pick and roll is more effective; it is just harder to set up than the Suns version.

[alucryts]

Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.

Self-admittedly, his IQ isn't that high. For as unselfish as he is, he really doesn't have a great understanding about how to mesh his game with those around him.

Let me use some football terminology. I see too much "one or the other," where each play really has only one option for a shot. Rather, I want to see plays that have a heirarchy of options, where he can go through his progression of checkdowns, and react to what the defense is doing. I mean his pure instincts are good, especially when he takes on the defense by himself. But his ability to read and react could improve a lot.

EDIT: The offense just doesn't always flow properly. If one thing doesn't work, then there's a stall (occasionally a jump pass flirting with disaster), and then back out and start over. By that time, the shot clock is winding down and we need a bail out shot.

Also, our offense is not designed for Rose to have multiple options to run by himself. Our offense as a whole relies on ball movement from everyone. We do get good shots the majority of the time; we just need better precision.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.

Self-admittedly, his IQ isn't that high. For as unselfish as he is, he really doesn't have a great understanding about how to mesh his game with those around him.

Let me use some football terminology. I see too much "one or the other," where each play really has only one option for a shot. Rather, I want to see plays that have a heirarchy of options, where he can go through his progression of checkdowns, and react to what the defense is doing. I mean his pure instincts are good, especially when he takes on the defense by himself. But his ability to read and react could improve a lot.

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

[Sevach]

Brilliant analysis, Boozer doesn't have much range on his jumper so bringing him to the 3 point line is useless, every team on the NBA will continue to trap Rose if we do it.
The only way for this to work would be if Noah became more active on the offensive end and a threat from the top of the circle.

The Bulls won't have an easy time running scenarios 4 and 5 because of the total lack of a secondary ball handler, there is a big chance that, (on a tight game) once Derrick gives up the ball, teams will deny and the other Bulls won't know what to do...

[Ajosu]

Also, our offense is not designed for Rose to have multiple options to run by himself. Our offense as a whole relies on ball movement from everyone. We do get good shots the majority of the time; we just need better precision.

If that's the case, then it's almost impossible to have Rose both run the offense AND remain aggressive looking for his shot. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but I think the offense needs to start with him, and feed off of that (and I know you have been saying something similar for a while now). I mean, he is at his best as a ball dominant, scoring PG.

It's a game of adjustments, and when the other team adjusts to him hitting shots (ideally by getting into the paint), then it opens up the opportunity for our next option (ideally Boozer in a FT line pick and roll). And then the defense adjusts to that, opening up a back door cut or kickout corner three for Deng.

I know it's not ever going to be that structured, but I think our offense should be geared towards our best offensive players, rather than motion from everyone that really only aims to find the open man, regardless of who it is. This leads to too many shots for RIP or Noah, because any smart defense is going to concede to them and shade towards Rose, Boozer.

[EastBayFJ]

Gem of a thread and completely relevant as to whether the Bulls make progress or not.

Rose has utter confidence in himself and his own offense . This needs to translate into his offense as to how he creates for others - and it's not quite there yet.

But to bring it in and run his man into the pick and get Carlos ( and Joakim ) rolling is a basic starting point.

Derrick does seem to get a helluva lot of pressure from outside the 3 point line as to what we saw against the Pacers and Heat in the playoffs last year and even against the Lakers on Christmas night. And in the big games of consequence this is going to be an issue.

Which is why the ability to get a true 2nd creator on this team ( or a guy who can get his own offense ) should be a big priority that not only will pay dividends to Derrick's individual game - but the entire offense ( including our bigs in the pick and roll game )

I don't think a second ball handler will work or even be necessary in this offense. The key I see on every point guard pass that isn't a drive and kick is drawing a double team. Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.

Or a guy who can get his own offense is what I added

Back to the 2nd ball handler issue - the Heat make it work , the Celtics make / made it work ( and won a champinship with Pierce creating for others and himself ) the Warriors etc. It will take some time for the Clips to work it out but they will

It can , and it does , work.

Without it , and with Derrick's limitations as a point guard ( at this stage of is career ) as have been correctly identified , then this team ( and I have been saying this for a long time ) look a lot like Iverson's Sixer teams from the late 90's to early 2000's in make up and trajectory.

[alucryts]

Brilliant analysis, Boozer doesn't have much range on his jumper so bringing him to the 3 point line is useless, every team on the NBA will continue to trap Rose if we do it.
The only way for this to work would be if Noah became more active on the offensive end and a threat from the top of the circle.

The Bulls won't have an easy time running scenarios 4 and 5 because of the total lack of a secondary ball handler, there is a big chance that, (on a tight game) once Derrick gives up the ball, teams will deny and the other Bulls won't know what to do...

If the defense doubles Rose on scenario 4 and 5, they give up an auto dunk the roll man. A secondary ball handler is not going to help the pick and roll. If anything, a successful pick and pop big man will.

[alucryts]

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

I think you'd have to be on the Bulls to really know that answer. The benefit of the pick and pop pick and roll of scenario 1 is that is pulls rebounders out from the paint. We might be running the pick and roll like we are because that is truly the goal of the play (mid range shot + offensive rebound).

[alucryts]

Also, our offense is not designed for Rose to have multiple options to run by himself. Our offense as a whole relies on ball movement from everyone. We do get good shots the majority of the time; we just need better precision.

If that's the case, then it's almost impossible to have Rose both run the offense AND remain aggressive looking for his shot. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but I think the offense needs to start with him, and feed off of that (and I know you have been saying something similar for a while now). I mean, he is at his best as a ball dominant, scoring PG.

It's a game of adjustments, and when the other team adjusts to him hitting shots (ideally by getting into the paint), then it opens up the opportunity for our next option (ideally Boozer in a FT line pick and roll). And then the defense adjusts to that, opening up a back door cut or kickout corner three for Deng.

I know it's not ever going to be that structured, but I think our offense should be geared towards our best offensive players, rather than motion from everyone that really only aims to find the open man, regardless of who it is. This leads to too many shots for RIP or Noah, because any smart defense is going to concede to them and shade towards Rose, Boozer.

I think the two options Rose has always on offense when not calling an isolation for himself is run the play as is or bail on it and attack an opening.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

I think you'd have to be on the Bulls to really know that answer. The benefit of the pick and pop pick and roll of scenario 1 is that is pulls rebounders out from the paint. We might be running the pick and roll like we are because that is truly the goal of the play (mid range shot + offensive rebound).

Got you. Thanx man.

[Ajosu]

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

Well, Thib's is a great coach, but he's no Jerry Sloan when it comes to offense. I have no idea, though if I had to guess I would say they just haven't focused on it that much. Rose has a knack for fixing his mistakes once they are identified.

Honestly, I hope it's just something they missed, because the way alucryts broke it down, it's borderline insane to purposely run it our way. I mean we do want to get shots for Rose, and the 3pt line P&R does help with that. But we also need to put Boozer in positions for him to excel. And our version of the high P&R, as well as force feeding him down on the block, just isn't working.

[Indomitable]

Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.

Self-admittedly, his IQ isn't that high. For as unselfish as he is, he really doesn't have a great understanding about how to mesh his game with those around him.

Let me use some football terminology. I see too much "one or the other," where each play really has only one option for a shot. Rather, I want to see plays that have a heirarchy of options, where he can go through his progression of checkdowns, and react to what the defense is doing. I mean his pure instincts are good, especially when he takes on the defense by himself. But his ability to read and react could improve a lot.

EDIT: The offense just doesn't always flow properly. If one thing doesn't work, then there's a stall (occasionally a jump pass flirting with disaster), and then back out and start over. By that time, the shot clock is winding down and we need a bail out shot.

He said he does not have Nash understanding not that he is Tyrus Thomas.

Another problem is him and Boozer have never got to work together. The lockout, boozer bag has cost two training camps. I wish him and Boozer had worked together over the summer.

[alucryts]

Finally, looking at CP3 from 09-10......to me at least Deron Williams is the best PNR point guard in the NBA. All CP3 does is run scenario 1 over and over. Williams is the only point guard to take the pick and roll past the first 2 scenarios consistently.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

......because the way alucryts broke it down, it's borderline insane to purposely run it our way. I mean we do want to get shots for Rose, and the 3pt line P&R does help with that. But we also need to put Boozer in positions for him to excel. And our version of the high P&R, as well as force feeding him down on the block, just isn't working.

Agreed & thanx for the knowledge, Ajosu.

[alucryts]

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

Well, Thib's is a great coach, but he's no Jerry Sloan when it comes to offense. I have no idea, though if I had to guess I would say they just haven't focused on it that much. Rose has a knack for fixing his mistakes once they are identified.

Honestly, I hope it's just something they missed, because the way alucryts broke it down, it's borderline insane to purposely run it our way. I mean we do want to get shots for Rose, and the 3pt line P&R does help with that. But we also need to put Boozer in positions for him to excel. And our version of the high P&R, as well as force feeding him down on the block, just isn't working.

Like I said a few posts prior to this, scenario 1 pick and roll has the benefit of pulling the center out of the paint to allow for Noah or Asik to get an easy offensive rebound. If this is why we run it the way we do, then we are doing a good job.

Keep in mind that Scenarios 3 through 5 require a TON of chemistry and skill at running from the ball handler. Running the third scenario is something I think we can do, but it doesn't give our offense prime rebounding position like the first one does. Personally, I think we should mix in more of scenarios 3-5 instead of posting up our players who are bad at posting up. For those wondering, we actually have run pick and roll 4 this year, but not with Rose and Boozer; we've run it with Rip and Noah on the wing off of Rip running around screens.

[EastBayFJ]

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

Well, Thib's is a great coach, but he's no Jerry Sloan when it comes to offense. I have no idea, though if I had to guess I would say they just haven't focused on it that much. Rose has a knack for fixing his mistakes once they are identified.

Honestly, I hope it's just something they missed, because the way alucryts broke it down, it's borderline insane to purposely run it our way. I mean we do want to get shots for Rose, and the 3pt line P&R does help with that. But we also need to put Boozer in positions for him to excel. And our version of the high P&R, as well as force feeding him down on the block, just isn't working.

Spot on

Which is why a 2nd creator ( either for himself or for others ) keeps defenses more honest , won't wear Derrick down as much , and should make it easier to get to more efficient spots on the floor for the pick and roll game - as has been correctly identified , roughly approximate to being parallel with the ft line