2018 Draft Thread #6

[Rose2Boozer]

Gary Trent Jr. is the guy I'd take if available with the Pels pick. He is a knockdown shooter, and would fit well taking Nwaba's minutes. Whether they draft a perimeter player probably depends on if Garpax is in a position to draft big. That being said, there's always room for elite perimeter shooting.

Watch on YouTube

[Davell]

Anyone seen a bunch of Syracuse this year? Oshae Brissett is interesting. His shooting percentage is ridiculously horrible, but he's got a decent stroke and is supposedly known for a decent mid range game. He's also a very solid defender and excellent rebounder, for a wing.

He's mentioned as a guy that's got mid first upside, to having to stay back a year.

At any rate, he's got lots of pluses, just wondering why in the world he's shooting 35%ish from the field? Because if he was even low 40's, this guy could be in consideration for a top 10-15 pick.

[Duke4life831]

Gary Trent Jr. is the guy I'd take if available with the Pels pick. He is a knockdown shooter, and would fit well taking Nwaba's minutes. Whether they draft a perimeter player probably depends on if Garpax is in a position to draft big. That being said, there's always room for elite perimeter shooting.

Watch on YouTube

I have a hard time seeing him being a starter on the NBA level. The definition of a black hole on offense, it's a very rare sight to see him pass. He's slow for a guard and not a good defender. If his shot isn't falling he really doesn't bring anything to the table. To me he seems like the type of guard you groom to be a spark off the bench.

[WindyCityBorn]

Anyone seen a bunch of Syracuse this year? Oshae Brissett is interesting. His shooting percentage is ridiculously horrible, but he's got a decent stroke and is supposedly known for a decent mid range game. He's also a very solid defender and excellent rebounder, for a wing.

He's mentioned as a guy that's got mid first upside, to having to stay back a year.

At any rate, he's got lots of pluses, just wondering why in the world he's shooting 35%ish from the field? Because if he was even low 40's, this guy could be in consideration for a top 10-15 pick.

Obviously we are not going to draft a guy shooting that poorly with mid-first. Stroke means nothing if you aren't making the shots.

[Dresden]

Interesting stat I just read. Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

You might as well say "since 1995" or so, because before then it was a much different game without the one and done's.

[_txchilibowl_]

Interesting stat I just read. Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

You might as well say "since 1995" or so, because before then it was a much different game without the one and done's.

1) David Robinson's under-20 season was in 1984

2) Under-20 seasons would include most sophomores and some juniors so the stat includes alot more than one and done players.


Those numbers from Ayton are pretty historic....

[Benedict Miller]

Interesting stat I just read. Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

You might as well say "since 1995" or so, because before then it was a much different game without the one and done's.

Well it doesn't say since 1995 sir, it says in NCAA history. Towns, Embiid, played in this one and done era also.

[bulliedog8]

I havent been keeping up with the draft thread or the draft board the last few weeks. But has everyone finally fallen off Trae Young? The dude will not be good in the nba. Wouldnt want him anywhere near the bulls. Would easily take dunn over him

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Interesting stat I just read. Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

You might as well say "since 1995" or so, because before then it was a much different game without the one and done's.

1) David Robinson's under-20 season was in 1984

2) Under-20 seasons would include most sophomores and some juniors so the stat includes alot more than one and done players.


Those numbers from Ayton are pretty historic....

Not really. And that 19/10/.650 statement is a complete lie anyway.

Unless you want to ignore the fact that the first 50 or so years of NCAA basketball were played without a shot clock, which completely changed the game more than probably any game rule ever.

I'm pretty sure Robinson, Griffin and Ayton never played in any games that were 7-0 at halftime.

===================================================

But nothing compares to the slowdown efforts perfected by North Carolina legend Dean Smith, whose four corners offense gave the Tar Heels numerous victories but earned them few fans. Smith's teams usually possessed superior talent, and those superior players killed the clock as helpless foes chased the ball and point guards like Phil Ford. The four corners usually appeared at the end of games. But not always.

At the end of the 1979 season, the Tar Heels hit the road to face rival Duke, in a game that set the game of basketball back to about five minutes after Naismith put up the first peach basket. North Carolina had defeated Duke 74-68 earlier in the season. Yet in the rematch in Durham, Smith's troops held the ball. And held the ball. Then held it some more. Duke scored after gaining the tip, surging to a 2-0 lead. The Tar Heels held the ball for the next 11 minutes. The reason? Smith wanted Duke to come out of its 2-3 zone. The Dukies finally deflected a pass but after inbounding the ball, North Carolina held it for two more minutes, before turning it over. Mike Gminski hit a free throw to make it 3-0 with 5:43 remaining.

The Blue Devils added a pair of field goals before the buzzer and went into halftime leading 7-0. North Carolina took two shots in the first half, including a half-courter at the buzzer. Neither hit the rim. The first, by Rich Yonakor, led to the Duke crowd chanting "airball." Basketball historians who specialize in such trivial matters, believe that's the first time a crowd chanted "airball." Considering the Tar Heels entered the game ranked fourth in the nation, it should have also turned into the first game where a crowd chanted "overrated."

http://shawnfury.blogspot.com/2011/01/time-duke-led-unc-7-0-at-halftime.html

===================================================

I bolded game rule above because another non-playing court rule was finally fully changed during the 1960's - I think it's safe to say that it became a different game once the brothers were fully allowed to play. And I don't mean the Van Arsdale brothers...

===================================================

The Loyola University (Chicago) teams of the early 1960s, coached by George Ireland, are thought to be responsible for ushering in a new era of racial equality in the sport by shattering all remaining color barriers in NCAA men's basketball. Beginning in 1961, Loyola broke the longstanding gentlemen's agreement (not to play more than three black players at any given time), putting as many as four black players on the court at every game. For the 1962-63 season, Ireland played four black Loyola starters in every game. That season, Loyola also became the first team in NCAA Division I history to play an all-black lineup, doing so in a game against Wyoming in December 1962.

In 1963, Loyola shocked the nation and changed college basketball forever by starting four black players in the NCAA Tournament, as well as the Championship game. Loyola's stunning 60–58 overtime upset of two-time defending NCAA champion Cincinnati was the crowning achievement in the school's nearly decade-long struggle with racial inequality in men's college basketball, highlighted by the tumultuous events of that year's NCAA Tournament. Loyola's 1963 NCAA title was historic not only for the racial makeup of Loyola's team, but also because Cincinnati started three black players, making seven of the ten starters in the 1963 NCAA Championship game black.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_participation_in_college_basketball

===================================================

And let's just throw out the simple fact that this statement is a complete, bold-faced lie:

Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

Bill Walton (DOB 11/5/52)
1971-72:
21.1 Pts
15.5 Reb
.673 TS%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/waltobi01.html

Lew Alcindor (DOB 4/16/47)
1966-67:
29.0 Pts
15.5 Reb
.680 TS%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

There certainly could be more players who fit the bill, I just posted the stats of the 2 guys I had no doubt would have done it.

And they might have done it twice, if they had been allowed to play as Freshmen. But just FYI, the year Kareem played for UCLA's Freshman team, he only put up 33.1 points and 21.5 rebounds while shooting 68.3% from the field.

===================================================

P.S. - These numbers games don't mean a whole lot anyway, when you start using strange numbers (like 19 pts/game instead of 20):

1999 NBA season, only 2 players averaged 18+ points, 7+ rebounds, 5+ assists and 1+ steals with an ast/to ratio of 1.75 or better.

Grant Hill - https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html
Toni Kukoc - https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kukocto01.html

Just sayin'...

[WindyCityBorn]

I havent been keeping up with the draft thread or the draft board the last few weeks. But has everyone finally fallen off Trae Young? The dude will not be good in the nba. Wouldnt want him anywhere near the bulls. Would easily take dunn over him

His hype is fading. And I agree I don't want him on the Bulls.

[Benedict Miller]

You might as well say "since 1995" or so, because before then it was a much different game without the one and done's.

1) David Robinson's under-20 season was in 1984

2) Under-20 seasons would include most sophomores and some juniors so the stat includes alot more than one and done players.


Those numbers from Ayton are pretty historic....

Not really. And that 19/10/.650 statement is a complete lie anyway.

Unless you want to ignore the fact that the first 50 or so years of NCAA basketball were played without a shot clock, which completely changed the game more than probably any game rule ever.

I'm pretty sure Robinson, Griffin and Ayton never played in any games that were 7-0 at halftime.

===================================================

But nothing compares to the slowdown efforts perfected by North Carolina legend Dean Smith, whose four corners offense gave the Tar Heels numerous victories but earned them few fans. Smith's teams usually possessed superior talent, and those superior players killed the clock as helpless foes chased the ball and point guards like Phil Ford. The four corners usually appeared at the end of games. But not always.

At the end of the 1979 season, the Tar Heels hit the road to face rival Duke, in a game that set the game of basketball back to about five minutes after Naismith put up the first peach basket. North Carolina had defeated Duke 74-68 earlier in the season. Yet in the rematch in Durham, Smith's troops held the ball. And held the ball. Then held it some more. Duke scored after gaining the tip, surging to a 2-0 lead. The Tar Heels held the ball for the next 11 minutes. The reason? Smith wanted Duke to come out of its 2-3 zone. The Dukies finally deflected a pass but after inbounding the ball, North Carolina held it for two more minutes, before turning it over. Mike Gminski hit a free throw to make it 3-0 with 5:43 remaining.

The Blue Devils added a pair of field goals before the buzzer and went into halftime leading 7-0. North Carolina took two shots in the first half, including a half-courter at the buzzer. Neither hit the rim. The first, by Rich Yonakor, led to the Duke crowd chanting "airball." Basketball historians who specialize in such trivial matters, believe that's the first time a crowd chanted "airball." Considering the Tar Heels entered the game ranked fourth in the nation, it should have also turned into the first game where a crowd chanted "overrated."

http://shawnfury.blogspot.com/2011/01/time-duke-led-unc-7-0-at-halftime.html

===================================================

I bolded game rule above because another non-playing court rule was finally fully changed during the 1960's - I think it's safe to say that it became a different game once the brothers were fully allowed to play. And I don't mean the Van Arsdale brothers...

===================================================

The Loyola University (Chicago) teams of the early 1960s, coached by George Ireland, are thought to be responsible for ushering in a new era of racial equality in the sport by shattering all remaining color barriers in NCAA men's basketball. Beginning in 1961, Loyola broke the longstanding gentlemen's agreement (not to play more than three black players at any given time), putting as many as four black players on the court at every game. For the 1962-63 season, Ireland played four black Loyola starters in every game. That season, Loyola also became the first team in NCAA Division I history to play an all-black lineup, doing so in a game against Wyoming in December 1962.

In 1963, Loyola shocked the nation and changed college basketball forever by starting four black players in the NCAA Tournament, as well as the Championship game. Loyola's stunning 60–58 overtime upset of two-time defending NCAA champion Cincinnati was the crowning achievement in the school's nearly decade-long struggle with racial inequality in men's college basketball, highlighted by the tumultuous events of that year's NCAA Tournament. Loyola's 1963 NCAA title was historic not only for the racial makeup of Loyola's team, but also because Cincinnati started three black players, making seven of the ten starters in the 1963 NCAA Championship game black.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_participation_in_college_basketball

===================================================

And let's just throw out the simple fact that this statement is a complete, bold-faced lie:

Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

Bill Walton (DOB 11/5/52)
1971-72:
21.1 Pts
15.5 Reb
.673 TS%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/waltobi01.html

Lew Alcindor (DOB 4/16/47)
1966-67:
29.0 Pts
15.5 Reb
.680 TS%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

There certainly could be more players who fit the bill, I just posted the stats of the 2 guys I had no doubt would have done it.

And they might have done it twice, if they had been allowed to play as Freshmen. But just FYI, the year Kareem played for UCLA's Freshman team, he only put up 33.1 points and 21.5 rebounds while shooting 68.3% from the field.

===================================================

P.S. - These numbers games don't mean a whole lot anyway, when you start using strange numbers (like 19 pts/game instead of 20):

1999 NBA season, only 2 players averaged 18+ points, 7+ rebounds, 5+ assists and 1+ steals with an ast/to ratio of 1.75 or better.

Grant Hill - https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html
Toni Kukoc - https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kukocto01.html

Just sayin'...

Welp...I can't argue facts, maybe what I read meant during the shot clock era's existence.

[Benedict Miller]

I havent been keeping up with the draft thread or the draft board the last few weeks. But has everyone finally fallen off Trae Young? The dude will not be good in the nba. Wouldnt want him anywhere near the bulls. Would easily take dunn over him

I don't think he'll be a bad player, but I'm hopeful another team drafts him before our pick.

[DanTown8587]

John Collins LAST YEAR - age 19 (26.6 minutes per game)
19.2 points / 9.8 rebounds / .658 TS%

Blake Griffin - age 19
22.7 points / 14.4 rebounds / .647 TS%

Chris Webber - age 19
19.2 points / 10.1 rebounds / .645 TS%

Shaq
27.2 points / 14.2 rebounds / .645 TS%

Gary Trent - age 19
19.0 points / 9.3 rebounds / .669 TS%

Andrew Bogut - age 20
20.4 points / 12.2 rebounds / .648 TS%

Ayton's numbers (32.7 minutes per game)
19.9 points / 10.3 rebounds / .647 TS%

And this is why the whole "guy X is one of only z players to average A + B + C". It creates distinctions that do not have any meaningful difference, especially when you don't control for pace or for minutes played.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Welp...I can't argue facts, maybe what I read meant during the shot clock era's existence.

Reading my post again, I hope it didn't come off as dickish, I didn't mean it that way.

I'm thinking you just read an inaccurate stat - to me, it doesn't make any sense for them to limit the 19/10/.650 to the shot-clock era, because it should be easier to do with a shot clock.

Probably just more bad "fact"-checking, journalistic integrity is going the route of the dinosaur.

[Benedict Miller]

Welp...I can't argue facts, maybe what I read meant during the shot clock era's existence.

Reading my post again, I hope it didn't come off as dickish, I didn't mean it that way.

I'm thinking you just read an inaccurate stat - to me, it doesn't make any sense for them to limit the 19/10/.650 to the shot-clock era, because it should be easier to do with a shot clock.

Probably just more bad "fact"-checking, journalistic integrity is going the route of the dinosaur.

ESPN NBA Insider

[Axolotl]

Bulls pick - Currently 8th, think we can get to 4th. Higher with lotto luck.

4th would be awesome.

If we stay at 8th, I'd seek options to trade up, preferably to top 5, but I'd take 6th. Both picks, any player(s) not involved in the Butler trade, eating contracts that won't destroy our options with 2019 FA-market... Anything, really.

A great prospect is better than two good prospects. Sure, there is a risk of getting a bust, but the higher the pick, the higher the chance to get an impact player.

Picking 8th and whatever, the likely outcome is getting at least one solid rotational piece. We don't need to draft rotation guys, we need at least a good starter calibre player. We lucked out with Markkanen, I don't see him going lower than 3rd in a redraft.

There will most likely be someone picked at #7+ in the upcoming draft that will in redrafts go much higher, but counting on us to land that player with either of our picks is like counting on winning in roulette.

Not a great likelihood of a trade like that happening though. Unless there are special circumstances in one of the top picking teams that I am not aware of.

[Dan Z]

Bulls pick - Currently 8th, think we can get to 4th. Higher with lotto luck.

4th would be awesome.

If we stay at 8th, I'd seek options to trade up, preferably to top 5, but I'd take 6th. Both picks, any player(s) not involved in the Butler trade, eating contracts that won't destroy our options with 2019 FA-market... Anything, really.

A great prospect is better than two good prospects. Sure, there is a risk of getting a bust, but the higher the pick, the higher the chance to get an impact player.

Picking 8th and whatever, the likely outcome is getting at least one solid rotational piece. We don't need to draft rotation guys, we need at least a good starter calibre player. We lucked out with Markkanen, I don't see him going lower than 3rd in a redraft.

There will most likely be someone picked at #7+ in the upcoming draft that will in redrafts go much higher, but counting on us to land that player with either of our picks is like counting on winning in roulette.

Not a great likelihood of a trade like that happening though. Unless there are special circumstances in one of the top picking teams that I am not aware of.

It depends on how the draft shakes up, but trading up isn't always the right way to go. For example trading up for Doug McDermott was not a good move (the Bulls traded Gary Harris and Nurkic). But for this upcoming draft I tend to agree with you...the team could use a prospect with high upside instead of a solid level player.

[WindyCityBorn]

Bulls pick - Currently 8th, think we can get to 4th. Higher with lotto luck.

4th would be awesome.

If we stay at 8th, I'd seek options to trade up, preferably to top 5, but I'd take 6th. Both picks, any player(s) not involved in the Butler trade, eating contracts that won't destroy our options with 2019 FA-market... Anything, really.

A great prospect is better than two good prospects. Sure, there is a risk of getting a bust, but the higher the pick, the higher the chance to get an impact player.

Picking 8th and whatever, the likely outcome is getting at least one solid rotational piece. We don't need to draft rotation guys, we need at least a good starter calibre player. We lucked out with Markkanen, I don't see him going lower than 3rd in a redraft.

There will most likely be someone picked at #7+ in the upcoming draft that will in redrafts go much higher, but counting on us to land that player with either of our picks is like counting on winning in roulette.

Not a great likelihood of a trade like that happening though. Unless there are special circumstances in one of the top picking teams that I am not aware of.

It depends on how the draft shakes up, but trading up isn't always the right way to go. For example trading up for Doug McDermott was not a good move (the Bulls traded Gary Harris and Nurkic). But for this upcoming draft I tend to agree with you...the team could use a prospect with high upside instead of a solid level player.

Bulls need to swing for the fences with both picks. We need an all-star.

[samwana]

You might as well say "since 1995" or so, because before then it was a much different game without the one and done's.

1) David Robinson's under-20 season was in 1984

2) Under-20 seasons would include most sophomores and some juniors so the stat includes alot more than one and done players.


Those numbers from Ayton are pretty historic....

Not really. And that 19/10/.650 statement is a complete lie anyway.

Unless you want to ignore the fact that the first 50 or so years of NCAA basketball were played without a shot clock, which completely changed the game more than probably any game rule ever.

I'm pretty sure Robinson, Griffin and Ayton never played in any games that were 7-0 at halftime.

===================================================

But nothing compares to the slowdown efforts perfected by North Carolina legend Dean Smith, whose four corners offense gave the Tar Heels numerous victories but earned them few fans. Smith's teams usually possessed superior talent, and those superior players killed the clock as helpless foes chased the ball and point guards like Phil Ford. The four corners usually appeared at the end of games. But not always.

At the end of the 1979 season, the Tar Heels hit the road to face rival Duke, in a game that set the game of basketball back to about five minutes after Naismith put up the first peach basket. North Carolina had defeated Duke 74-68 earlier in the season. Yet in the rematch in Durham, Smith's troops held the ball. And held the ball. Then held it some more. Duke scored after gaining the tip, surging to a 2-0 lead. The Tar Heels held the ball for the next 11 minutes. The reason? Smith wanted Duke to come out of its 2-3 zone. The Dukies finally deflected a pass but after inbounding the ball, North Carolina held it for two more minutes, before turning it over. Mike Gminski hit a free throw to make it 3-0 with 5:43 remaining.

The Blue Devils added a pair of field goals before the buzzer and went into halftime leading 7-0. North Carolina took two shots in the first half, including a half-courter at the buzzer. Neither hit the rim. The first, by Rich Yonakor, led to the Duke crowd chanting "airball." Basketball historians who specialize in such trivial matters, believe that's the first time a crowd chanted "airball." Considering the Tar Heels entered the game ranked fourth in the nation, it should have also turned into the first game where a crowd chanted "overrated."

http://shawnfury.blogspot.com/2011/01/time-duke-led-unc-7-0-at-halftime.html

===================================================

I bolded game rule above because another non-playing court rule was finally fully changed during the 1960's - I think it's safe to say that it became a different game once the brothers were fully allowed to play. And I don't mean the Van Arsdale brothers...

===================================================

The Loyola University (Chicago) teams of the early 1960s, coached by George Ireland, are thought to be responsible for ushering in a new era of racial equality in the sport by shattering all remaining color barriers in NCAA men's basketball. Beginning in 1961, Loyola broke the longstanding gentlemen's agreement (not to play more than three black players at any given time), putting as many as four black players on the court at every game. For the 1962-63 season, Ireland played four black Loyola starters in every game. That season, Loyola also became the first team in NCAA Division I history to play an all-black lineup, doing so in a game against Wyoming in December 1962.

In 1963, Loyola shocked the nation and changed college basketball forever by starting four black players in the NCAA Tournament, as well as the Championship game. Loyola's stunning 60–58 overtime upset of two-time defending NCAA champion Cincinnati was the crowning achievement in the school's nearly decade-long struggle with racial inequality in men's college basketball, highlighted by the tumultuous events of that year's NCAA Tournament. Loyola's 1963 NCAA title was historic not only for the racial makeup of Loyola's team, but also because Cincinnati started three black players, making seven of the ten starters in the 1963 NCAA Championship game black.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_participation_in_college_basketball

===================================================

And let's just throw out the simple fact that this statement is a complete, bold-faced lie:

Only 3 players under 20 years old in NCAA history have averaged 19 and 10 with a true shooting of 65.0 or better. David Robinson, Blake Griffin and Deandre Ayton.

Bill Walton (DOB 11/5/52)
1971-72:
21.1 Pts
15.5 Reb
.673 TS%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/waltobi01.html

Lew Alcindor (DOB 4/16/47)
1966-67:
29.0 Pts
15.5 Reb
.680 TS%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

There certainly could be more players who fit the bill, I just posted the stats of the 2 guys I had no doubt would have done it.

And they might have done it twice, if they had been allowed to play as Freshmen. But just FYI, the year Kareem played for UCLA's Freshman team, he only put up 33.1 points and 21.5 rebounds while shooting 68.3% from the field.

===================================================

P.S. - These numbers games don't mean a whole lot anyway, when you start using strange numbers (like 19 pts/game instead of 20):

1999 NBA season, only 2 players averaged 18+ points, 7+ rebounds, 5+ assists and 1+ steals with an ast/to ratio of 1.75 or better.

Grant Hill - https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html
Toni Kukoc - https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kukocto01.html

Just sayin'...

Awesome post!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[Rose2Boozer]

Gary Trent Jr. is the guy I'd take if available with the Pels pick. He is a knockdown shooter, and would fit well taking Nwaba's minutes. Whether they draft a perimeter player probably depends on if Garpax is in a position to draft big. That being said, there's always room for elite perimeter shooting.

Watch on YouTube

I have a hard time seeing him being a starter on the NBA level. The definition of a black hole on offense, it's a very rare sight to see him pass. He's slow for a guard and not a good defender. If his shot isn't falling he really doesn't bring anything to the table. To me he seems like the type of guard you groom to be a spark off the bench.

I would be perfectly fine with a elite shooting roleplayer off the bench. No matter who GarPax select with the Pels pick, the likelihood of the prospect being a starter is highly unlikely. So, a guy that can space the floor with the Pels pick is good value.

As far as team building goes, I would hate to see GarPax commit to a bunch of perimeter players who can't shoot. Markkanen is a solid shooter at his position, but the Bulls still needs better shooters playing on the perimeter.