What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine

The Box Office · Post #21 » by **The Box Office** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:45 am

I like LaVine. I originally didn't want him here. I wanted Wiggins. But Wiggins is bad, too. Turns out that LaVine is the best he's gonna be. He's already played 6 seasons. Yes, 6 seasons.

He's not a Franchise player and there's nothing wrong with that. To me, he is the 2nd most athletically explosive player behind Zion. He's one of the most exciting players in the league. I'm happy to have him in Chicago. LaVine is our number one option currently. However, he should be a super number 3 option on a contending team. Maybe he can be a number 2.

His defense is bad. His turnovers negate his assists. That's why LaVine is not a Franchise player.

The Franchise and Super Sidekick are not here yet. Maybe Coby White can develop to be the number 2 option. Time will tell.

When the time comes for us to trade LaVine to move up in the 2020 or 2021 Draft, or in a blockbuster deal, then I would. I don't see Zach stepping aside to a younger player who the Bulls will tab as the Franchise. They'll clash.

drosereturn · Post #22 » by **drosereturn** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:52 am

dougthonus wrote:Not that I disagree with this conclusion, but it's funny that it's all based on on/off numbers which I find particularly dicey to base any argument off of, and then diving into weird assist / usage and total assist stats that just seem completely meaningless and arbitrary as a method to try and figure out the cause of the on/off numbers.

None of it talks about what he may or may not become either.

To me, Zach LaVine will probably never be an elite player, but if he was able to limit turnovers, limit stupid plays, and be a bit more mindful of his teammates then a lot of that could switch very quickly. I don't think he's going to be on the verge of doing that based on his total minutes in the league, but he's young enough where it isn't crazy.

Victor Oladipo didn't show as much promise as LaVine through 10k minutes, which is about where Zach is right now. That said, I never look at the exception to say that because Oladipo put it together that Zach will, most guys don't. However, it's to say his total experience is not so much that it's crazy that it would happen. The athleticism and skills are clearly there, it is largely decision making that needs to change. There's definitely a chance.

Yeah its fair to compare to the Oladipo situation except dipo had much higher intangibles, BBIQ, and much toxic environment where he wasnt even given full leash only to get traded. Its hindsight but every GM would be stupid not to choose dipo over Lavine now.
Even he looks washed up, im still handing him over the max in a nanosecond if he comes in FA.

drosereturn · Post #23 » by **drosereturn** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:09 am

TeamMan wrote:
With all of that said, it brings us to a different player on the Bulls, and you can probably guess who that is - mainly Coby White. Contrary to Zach, after a period of adjustment, Coby was showing that he could adapt his game on a nightly basis to compensate for what defenses were doing against him. And in fact, there were times when you could see visible frustration from other team's players after he beat a defensive scheme that they were given to stop him.

Now, going forward, I think that we can throw out the argument that, for the future, the Bulls should be building around Coby instead of Zach. But 1st, the two players should be started together to determine whether of not they can become a tandem, because tandems have always been at the core of winning teams in the NBA. And, at this point, I can easily see Coby and Zach becoming such a tandem.

That brings me to the final conclusion. If it does work, the other three players must be primarily defensive minded (and talented) players that can have a chemistry with the Coby/Zach tandem that I'm proposing. And IMO Lauri, OPJ and WCJ do not fit that mold. And I would even go so far as to say that IMO Gafford better fits into that mold than does WCJ.

So, IMO, Gafford could be inserted into the starting lineup, and all three of Lauri, OPJ and WCJ could be traded for players that will better synergize with the (now) Coby/Zach/Gafford core.

The argument that Bulls should build around White instead of Lavine has no counter argument. Your literally selling at his highest value in his 6yr sample and while worst scenario he becomes an all star even then you still got draft picks and prospects which is good enough because then he would be demanding the max taking like 30% of the cap.

Also the idea that they need to try out White and Lavine tandem is just a big no considering we have moved away from relic of the past and AK era. I dont know him personally but pretty sure he doesnt want two ball dominant players going my turn.
One is enough and in his system, having a swiss army knife big men has been integral to the success as well as a bunch of two way wings thats not making major money. Yes, those two are the best players but if your going to win anything they should not be your number 1,2. So trying to flip them into a potential number1,2, is how you win like Masai did.

pipfan · Post #24 » by **pipfan** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:54 am

For those who play ball, you know how much harder it is to be "the guy". Until White's little run after the ASB, Zach was our only creator, and we had a terrible coach/lots of injuries. If we have a healthy team of
White
Zach
Porter
Lauri
Carter

that's 4 guys who can score, and Carter should be able to-he has skill. That would make a BIG difference for Lavine.

BUT, I would trade him and Porter to build around our rookie contract guys/picks IF a good deal came along

sco · Post #25 » by **sco** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:21 pm

I could make a similar argument about Jordan's inefficiency during the 97-98 season...the Bulls were mediocre while Pippen was out, and that supporting cast was far superior to our subs the last couple seasons (with everyone injured). Not saying Zach is MJ, but the lack of a stable starting unit, it is hard to judge Zach's "team skills".

johnnyvann840 · Post #26 » by **johnnyvann840** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:38 pm

Bottom line. He is worth far more to the Bulls in a trade than he is on their team. He thinks he's a #1 and he thinks he's the leader of the team. That is not going to change. The Bulls will never be good with him in that mindset and starting on this team. This is why he needs to go. We need a fresh start and that begins with a deal for Zach.

johnnyvann840 · Post #27 » by **johnnyvann840** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:41 pm

sco wrote:I could make a similar argument about Jordan's inefficiency during the 97-98 season...the Bulls were mediocre while Pippen was out, and that supporting cast was far superior to our subs the last couple seasons (with everyone injured). Not saying Zach is MJ, but the lack of a stable starting unit, it is hard to judge Zach's "team skills".

It was always...always clear that Jordan was highly highly intelligent on and off the court. It's always.. always been clear that Zach LaVine is not and that is the biggest difference of all and always will be

bullsnewdynasty · Post #28 » by **bullsnewdynasty** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:42 pm

Put LaVine on a winning team and all the criticism goes away.

Unfortunately, a lot of blame comes along with being the #1 option on a bad team decimated by injuries and young player regression. People mistake cause for correlation. The Bulls aren't losing because of LaVine.

The guy has been in the league 6 years and had 5 different coaches. When the Bulls fire Boylen, it will be 7 years and 6 different coaches. Most of that time spent on rebuilding teams not expected to make the playoffs, including having to overcome a serious ACL injury and team dysfunction.

WindyCityBorn · Post #29 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:09 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:Bottom line. He is worth far more to the Bulls in a trade than he is on their team. He thinks he's a #1 and he thinks he's the leader of the team. That is not going to change. The Bulls will never be good with him in that mindset and starting on this team. This is why he needs to go. We need a fresh start and that begins with a deal for Zach.

I love an argument based on emotion and things said as fact that you cannot prove. Adios.

Andi Obst · Post #30 » by **Andi Obst** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:29 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:Bottom line. He is worth far more to the Bulls in a trade than he is on their team. He thinks he's a #1 and he thinks he's the leader of the team. That is not going to change. The Bulls will never be good with him in that mindset and starting on this team. This is why he needs to go. We need a fresh start and that begins with a deal for Zach.

I agree that Zach isn't a first option for a good team and I'm not against trading him if the value is there, but I don't think it's fair to assume that he's unwilling to play a smaller role. We simply don't know that. He's never been in a good situation with true veteran leaders around.

transplant · Post #31 » by **transplant** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:46 pm

The Elias Shuster article in the OP made my head hurt.

There's certainly a place for statistics, but for the Bulls of the last couple seasons, their lack of any kind of continuity and questionable coaching leave me in a position of questioning what I do and don't know. I think a lot of you younger guys are more comfortable with filling "knowledge holes" with opinion/speculation than I am.

When I watch Lavine play, like everyone else, I'm impressed with his skills and athleticism. I don't have as good a handle on why he doesn't seem to make his teammates better, but I do agree with that assessment.

Can Lavine be effective as a #2 offensive option? Unfortunately, I don't see how this proposition can be tested in the foreseeable future.

dice · Post #32 » by **dice** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:41 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Bottom line. He is worth far more to the Bulls in a trade than he is on their team. He thinks he's a #1 and he thinks he's the leader of the team. That is not going to change. The Bulls will never be good with him in that mindset and starting on this team. This is why he needs to go. We need a fresh start and that begins with a deal for Zach.

I love an argument based on emotion and things said as fact that you cannot prove. Adios.

when a person claims that an argument is "based on emotion" despite no actual expression of emotion in the post he is referring to, and loads his response with sarcasm, that's an indication that it is actually the responder that is being emotional. it's what's known in psychology as 'projection': assigning to others characteristics that one fears about one's own self

as for lavine's future with the team, i'll know that the new FO is serious about shaking things up if they deal their most notable player. let's have a real fresh start. i'm very confident that the best offer for lavine would be one worth taking

dice · Post #33 » by **dice** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:47 pm

bullsnewdynasty wrote:Put LaVine on a winning team and all the criticism goes away.

and that's the problem. because when you put zach lavine on a team and pay him $20 million bucks, that team is less likely to win

The Bulls aren't losing because of LaVine.

the bulls are losing IN PART because of lavine. all the evidence suggests it

The guy has been in the league 6 years and had 5 different coaches. When the Bulls fire Boylen, it will be 7 years and 6 different coaches. Most of that time spent on rebuilding teams not expected to make the playoffs, including having to overcome a serious ACL injury and team dysfunction.

that might explain why he's not a better player, but it doesn't mean that he actually IS a better player but we're just not seeing it because of circumstances

dice · Post #34 » by **dice** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:51 pm

transplant wrote:Can Lavine be effective as a #2 offensive option? Unfortunately, I don't see how this proposition can be tested in the foreseeable future.

he's a passable first option, so the only reason he wouldn't be a solid 2nd option is if he couldn't handle not being "the man" psychologically. and i can't imagine that his ego is that big. i've seen no indication that zach lavine, who has never been an all-star, thinks of himself as a superstar

dice · Post #35 » by **dice** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:55 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
sco wrote:I could make a similar argument about Jordan's inefficiency during the 97-98 season...the Bulls were mediocre while Pippen was out, and that supporting cast was far superior to our subs the last couple seasons (with everyone injured). Not saying Zach is MJ, but the lack of a stable starting unit, it is hard to judge Zach's "team skills".

It was always...always clear that Jordan was highly highly intelligent on and off the court. It's always.. always been clear that Zach LaVine is not and that is the biggest difference of all and always will be

lavine is at least a good a scorer now as a 34 year old michael jordan was. just not in the clutch. and jordan, of course, blew him away in all-around game

WindyCityBorn · Post #36 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:18 pm

dice wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Bottom line. He is worth far more to the Bulls in a trade than he is on their team. He thinks he's a #1 and he thinks he's the leader of the team. That is not going to change. The Bulls will never be good with him in that mindset and starting on this team. This is why he needs to go. We need a fresh start and that begins with a deal for Zach.

I love an argument based on emotion and things said as fact that you cannot prove. Adios.

when a person claims that an argument is "based on emotion" despite no actual expression of emotion in the post he is referring to, and loads his response with sarcasm, that's an indication that it is actually the responder that is being emotional. it's what's known in psychology as 'projection': assigning to others characteristics that one fears about one's own self

as for lavine's future with the team, i'll know that the new FO is serious about shaking things up if they deal their most notable player. let's have a real fresh start. i'm very confident that the best offer for lavine would be one worth taking

Your criteria for being serious seems weird and not logical either. I doubt AK is looking to improve any optics by making a big trade for the sake 9f it. Every one gets a fresh start but Boylen. I doubt we see a single major trade before next season starts. Nor shoud we.

Dez · Post #37 » by **Dez** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:30 pm

dice wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Bottom line. He is worth far more to the Bulls in a trade than he is on their team. He thinks he's a #1 and he thinks he's the leader of the team. That is not going to change. The Bulls will never be good with him in that mindset and starting on this team. This is why he needs to go. We need a fresh start and that begins with a deal for Zach.

I love an argument based on emotion and things said as fact that you cannot prove. Adios.

when a person claims that an argument is "based on emotion" despite no actual expression of emotion in the post he is referring to, and loads his response with sarcasm, that's an indication that it is actually the responder that is being emotional. it's what's known in psychology as 'projection': assigning to others characteristics that one fears about one's own self

as for lavine's future with the team, i'll know that the new FO is serious about shaking things up if they deal their most notable player. let's have a real fresh start. i'm very confident that the best offer for lavine would be one worth taking

You mean like the projection that LaVine has a massive ego despite never showing evidence to suggest that is the case?

WindyCityBorn · Post #38 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:49 pm

Dez wrote:
dice wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
I love an argument based on emotion and things said as fact that you cannot prove. Adios.

when a person claims that an argument is "based on emotion" despite no actual expression of emotion in the post he is referring to, and loads his response with sarcasm, that's an indication that it is actually the responder that is being emotional. it's what's known in psychology as 'projection': assigning to others characteristics that one fears about one's own self

as for lavine's future with the team, i'll know that the new FO is serious about shaking things up if they deal their most notable player. let's have a real fresh start. i'm very confident that the best offer for lavine would be one worth taking

You mean like the projection that LaVine has a massive ego despite never showing evidence to suggest that is the case?

Exactly. I've had enough of that nonsense.

dice · Post #39 » by **dice** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:50 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
dice wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
I love an argument based on emotion and things said as fact that you cannot prove. Adios.

when a person claims that an argument is "based on emotion" despite no actual expression of emotion in the post he is referring to, and loads his response with sarcasm, that's an indication that it is actually the responder that is being emotional. it's what's known in psychology as 'projection': assigning to others characteristics that one fears about one's own self

as for lavine's future with the team, i'll know that the new FO is serious about shaking things up if they deal their most notable player. let's have a real fresh start. i'm very confident that the best offer for lavine would be one worth taking

Your criteria for being serious seems weird and not logical either.

your interpretation of what i said is what's not logical. i did not say that trading lavine would be the ONLY indication that the FO is serious. but it would be a very obvious indication that they are

I doubt AK is looking to improve any optics by making a big trade for the sake 9f it.

nor should he. that would be moronic

bullsnewdynasty · Post #40 » by **bullsnewdynasty** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:51 pm

dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:Put LaVine on a winning team and all the criticism goes away.

and that's the problem. because when you put zach lavine on a team and pay him $20 million bucks, that team is less likely to win

LaVine is on a team friendly deal.

the bulls are losing IN PART because of lavine. all the evidence suggests it

No, they're losing because they have the worst coach in the league and their players got hurt and regressed.

that might explain why he's not a better player, but it doesn't mean that he actually IS a better player but we're just not seeing it because of circumstances

Why he's not a better player? He's already at borderline all-star level, top 30 player in the league.

The way people talk about Zach act like he's a scrub. It's not easy to find a scorer as good as he is.