How Good is Jimmy Butler?

[sco]

Strengths:
- Work ethic...I credit Deng, in part, for teaching the right way to work to the younger guys like JB, Taj, and Joakim.
- Smart...studied MJ and Kobe to learn how to be MUCH more effective scoring in the post
- Elite Defender
- Leadership - knows what winning looks like and call out anyone who doesn't follow his model
- Very good passer

Weakness:
- Durability - true with many great defenders he is susceptible to injuries which has limited his play-off impactfulness in several years.
- Tact - see leadership above
- Wants to be "the man" - not sure his ego allows him to be a second-fiddle - which, IMO, limits a team's title hopes.

It is hard to rank Jimmy due to defense being often underrated. He is arguably a top 10 player. Miami/Spolstra found a great leader for a young, hard-working, ego-less team (which I think Jimmy needs to be most effective).

IMO, the ONLY reason the Bulls traded Jimmy was that he was likely going to get the SUPERMAX for them, which would have crippled them cap-wise in terms of putting talent around him. He didn't get the SUPERMAX in Minny because he had KAT taking the starring role there (and, IMO a reason he wanted to leave Minny).

[Ugly Duckling]

He's really good. One of the best two-way players in the game. If we're talking about wings, only Kawhi is better on both ends. I think that was pretty clear when Gar/Pax decided to trade him for LaVine, Markkanen and Dunn.

I felt it was a bad move at the time, although I was high on LaVine and Markkanen. Markkanen has disappointed. If he had taken another step up last season along with LaVine, the trade wouldn't have looked so bad retrospectively. I posted a video about Jimmy saying the thing he loves about Pat Riley and doesn't like about teams like the Bulls is that Riley competes every yr.

You don't trade one of the best two-way players in the game in his prime, especially if you're the Bulls. Plus he looks like MJ in a way. I mean it was destiny. Well I guess not. All that being said, you can't give him all the credit for for this.

Miami has a good, balanced roster. Good chemistry. And Bam freakin' Adebayo, who outplayed Giannis in game 3. Bam is the real deal Holyfield. Still, am I surprised they're up 3-0 against the Bucks in the ECSF? You bet I am

[Mech Engineer]

People still get mesmerized by athleticism...all these athletic PGs like Wall, Rose, Westbrook and even Dunn were all thought of as better players than Jimmy. Taller wings who can playmake, shoot(even like Jimmy, Kawhi) are the ones who contribute to winning in the playoffs. Except for Steph who is is a generational shot maker, you can't win without size.

The Bulls f'ed up...plain and simple. He is also an high IQ player. All the best players in the league are wings who can balance out shot making and play making.

Paxson had a messed up vision of team building. He never understood that putting all his chips in playmaking wing talents is the way to go....drafted big guys who are defenders. stiffs etc... Gar had the right idea but was a toxic individual. It was a combination of a clueless, reactionary Pax and a backstabbing Gar which ruined the franchise.

Any average GM would have tanked one year in 2017 with Jimmy and got a high draft pick and signed top free agents to bolster that team. Pax was drunk with power and was measuring everything based on a MJ type for a top option. He thought he had some secret sauce to get the next MJ. That hurt his GMing more than anything because he thought he knew what it takes to build a championship team but was just a reactionary of the latest fad without a clue.

[Shill]

Top 15-20 player

If we had AK running the show, maybe things would’ve turned out differently.

Oh, well.

We have no choice but to move on.

[ChettheJet]

He's no better or worse than he was with the Bulls, the playoffs amplify everything that any player does, good or bad. If he makes the Finals it will be two notches higher because there's max attention, but he'll be the same player

[weneeda2guard]

Well I for one was arguing tooth and nail to keep him for all the reasons that we have seen come into fruition.

To be fair to this conversation, alot of success for miami could be predicated on the fact they are in a bubble and home court travel and rest is not being factored in here. Would miami have swept indy and be up 3-0 in the bucks if things were as they were pre covid? This is a factor that garpax couldn't have imagined. Also at the time jimmy was traded giannis was so far ahead of Jimmy as a all star talent one could never imagine Jimmy would be out playing him any scenario. So in fairness to garpax they can get the benefit of the doubt of never imagining this scenario.

But

Garpax became enamored with this draft track record they had been celebrated for. They really thought it would be easy to find another all star talent. Jerry didn't fully consider the max not being a major deal in the new financial circumstances of the league and thought the money tied to jimmy would cripple the franchise. All of them were wrong. Comes to find out jimmy salary would have just been the going rate and its not so easy to just find another proven all star talent. So don't take the one you have for granted.

The draft was sold to the fan base as the secured route to title contending and adding all stars. All the high level talent just had to fall to us right? We were destined for it right? Now 2 7th picks and a 4th pick in a bad draft later we realize how all things we thought could go wrong went wrong which btw I argued most of this and even pointed out the risk in giving garpax another shot at building after failing previously.

Hopefully this new front office get things right together. We won't know how long it will take to get a player of jimmy caliber. But we are at least finally about to see things with a set of fresh eyes with a new front office and coach. So I hope we get it right this time.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Jimmy is awesome but the front office **** up by missing on so many 1st round picks. GarPax were also slow in identifying the multi-purpose switchable wing/small big trend. I'm reluctant to include 2nd round picks because they so rarely pan out.

Teams like Denver/Miami/Toronto do hit on picks all through out the drat and find undrafted gems also and Toronto especially crushes with their G-League development. In today's NBA you cant miss as bad as we have with prospects. We never gave Jimmy a roster of opportunities.

Snell
Teague
Doug (2 picks)
Bobby
Valentine

That's also not getting into roster make up disasters and the coaching failures we've had since Thibs.

I'm grateful to have AK running things and hopefully we trend in the right direction.

[musiqsoulchild]

I am realizing that there is more in common that connects:

MJ - Thibs - BG - Jimmy

than the thread that connects:
Gar - Pax - etc.

Winning at the highest level is most definitely accompanied with an a-hole gene. And that's OK in sport.

[Ice Man]

Garpax became enamored with this draft track record they had been celebrated for. They really thought it would be easy to find another all star talent.

This is another topic, but yeah. They had early draft success and consequently overrated their ability to judge and develope talent. Nobody is as good as GarPax thought they were. This stuff is HARD. Even the Spurs eventually couldn't keep the talent pool going.

They really, truly thought that if they traded for a couple of lottery picks, and then got a couple more in the draft, that they could replace an All Star starter. That is hubris. And that is why they are justifiably gone.

[Am2626]

He is the best player Pax and company ever drafted.

The only reason he was considered a head case, is he had a wining attitude this organization did not embrace or support. He rubbed the old system in place the wrong way, and became the guy when he wasn't supposed to be the guy.

I love Jimmy's attitude, and will root for him!

In Chicago he never had a team built around his skills. Were now seeing what he can do in that role.

Would argue that pre-ACL tear Rose was the best player they drafted but yes Butler has become a great player.

[SearsTower]

His competitive spirit and drive to become great is, dare I say, Jordanesque. And GarPax chose Hoiberg over him.

Only the Bulls, only the Bulls...

[kodo]

As good as he's ever been, but this was far from unwinnable.

- Miami was 2-0 vs MIL when healthy, they lost 1 when Butler was out.

- Milwaukee bases their defense on allowing 3P shots which has been criticized by media (30th in the league in allowing 3P shots) and Miami like most remaining playoff teams, are proficient from 3 (they were #1 in 3P% pre bubble).

Miami shot 47 threes and only 31 twos, they took advantage of MIL's weakness. Miami in theory is also susceptible to threes, but Milwaukee didn't really capitalize. Milwaukee took 37, but 7 were from Giannis who shouldn't be shooting them in the first place and went 0-7.

Miami had good reason to be confident of some wins here, bubble Milwaukee has been pretty shaky. Starting out 3-0 is still surprising.

[JordansBulls]

We should have kept him with Wade and Rondo together

[pipfan]

I was fine with the trade, and I still am. It was the right move at the time. We were going nowhere. Our biggest mistake was Boylan, and the disaster he was as a coach. Remember, Lauri was 19/9 as a rookie and headed to the All Star game. Lavine has been very good for us. Dunn is what he is.

Injuries, bad coaching and regression have set us back, not losing Butler.

[dougthonus]

He became a headcase getting shopped around from team to team, but DAMN! He's the heart and soul of the heart, and the biggest reason that the East's best team is down 0-3. Miami is literally going to win what should be an unwinnable series against the League's MVP and DPOY.

ESPN did a prediction and 7 analysts picked the Heat and 11 picked the Bucks. A lot of people thought the Heat had a chance to win this one, so it definitely wasn't viewed as unwinnable. I thought it was a toss up. This Bucks team seems worse to me than last years squad and was playing really poorly in the bubble.

[nomorezorro]

I was fine with the trade, and I still am. It was the right move at the time. We were going nowhere. Our biggest mistake was Boylan, and the disaster he was as a coach. Remember, Lauri was 19/9 as a rookie and headed to the All Star game. Lavine has been very good for us. Dunn is what he is.

Injuries, bad coaching and regression have set us back, not losing Butler.

the miami heat have built a finals-contending roster around jimmy butler almost entirely with players they acquired after we traded jimmy butler. they did not have any outstanding assets; they were just smart.

we could have pursued the same strategy. instead we signed two overpriced players who did not fit next to jimmy butler and immediately hit the reboot button the next season.

[nomorezorro]

thinking about how we might have been in a position to draft bam if we did a soft tank year in 2016 instead of burning money to put together The Three Alphas...

[Mech Engineer]

His competitive spirit and drive to become great is, dare I say, Jordanesque. And GarPax chose Hoiberg over him.

Only the Bulls, only the Bulls...

Exactly...that plus his ability to understood the tempo of the game is invaluable. Rose never could do that.

Jimmy might not be the most talented, athletic player on the floor but he has that knack of when to use his teammates and when to do it himself. That's a skill very few stars have.

The Bulls could have easily paired him with another high end all star and probably got another Allstar type in the draft or traded for one. They missed a golden opportunity they had in their hands by foolishly chasing after delusional, imaginary super teams.

[Ccwatercraft]

Exactly.

Jimmy was never actually a head case. He rubs people wrong because he doesn't settle for people not working as hard as they possibly can to win. Much like Jordan (I'm not saying he's MJ) you love having a dog like him on your side, but you're probably not going to be his best friend if you're not trying to match his intensity.

The only times he has cohesiveness issues is when he's in an atmosphere where people aren't willing to grind like him. In Chicago, he openly criticized Hoiberg's work ethic, which in hindsight was warranted. Minnesota, he rubbed the organization wrong, because their two stars are lazy and don't work hard. In Philly, it was said that he had an issue with a player or players for the same issue. Looking back on it now, it seems that may have been Simmons.

You never hear any stories like that coming out of Miami, because they've built a team that's full of players willing to grind, a FO who supports paying what it takes to build a contender, and a coach and that is battle tested and knows what it takes to make a title run. I miss Jimmy, but I'm happy for him, because he wasn't getting any of that here.

Agree,

Miami had that in place with a very good coach and FO that are on the same page. It will be interesting to see what they do the next two years.

And what's even crazier is that if they manage their capspace this off-season, they can still add some quality difference makers. Or even worse, if they punt until next summer they can pair Jimmy up with another max FA.

Yip. And a couple years back a few of us, myself included were thinking they had boxed themselves in a cap corner. So much for that.

[sonny]

We should have kept him with Wade and Rondo together

The fact that GarPax though Wade and Rondo fit Butler is why they're out.