LeBron vs Jordan

[gobullschi]

I liked Kyle Long’s take on this. Instead of GOAT it’s GOTE. “Greatest of their Era”

[weneeda2guard]

To begin, I won't go as far as others to say lebron can NEVER surpass jordan. Records are made to be broken. For a period of time i thought no one would ever jump higher than jordan, then Vince Carter happened. Lebron can surpass jordan. A few more titles more dominant numbers and if he goes through the elite of the league the nets clippers warriors etc once they tool back up. So it can happen.

But as of right now, lebron is def NOT the goat and honestly for me I dont even have him top 3. But def not better than jordan.

There are a lot of reasons many posted already but I'll go through my main reasons

Jordan was the ultimate 2 way player. Lebron stopped playing defense years ago. For as much as lebron is praised for his defense in 4th quarters on smaller rose and now smaller Jamal Murray nobody wants to mention lebron literally running from the responsibility of defending kawhi durant and now jimmy his contemporaries in this era. Lebron literally ran and hid in a corner 2 years in a row from durant. Jordan always took the best player on the opposing team especially if they were at his position. Dont give me the magic Johnson retort 1. Magic was not at jordans position 2. Jordan wanted to defend magic Phil overruled it. 3. Magic was covered by pippen so they could defend him 94 feet and try to get the ball out of magics hand earlier in the lakers offense to prevent their back cuts and fast breaks and most of the time the player helping once magic crossed half court was Jordan. Not to mention it was still many possessions Jordan defended magic. But on the defensive end, their is no comparison Jordan was 10x better

Lebron has lost more series as a favorite than Jordan. Jordan has never lost a series as a favorite in the sense of having home court advantage better record etc. Once the bulls got home court advantage over the Pistons they put them down. Even that Orlando series the magic had home court advantage. Lebron has lost several series with home court advantage with more talented teams. Some of the worst losses vs Orlando, vs Boston, vs Dallas, vs the spurs. Jordan has never had a melt down in a series that lebron had vs Dallas. Honestly lebron had melt downs vs Boston and the spurs too its just harder to notice because lebron did a lot of stat padding down the stretch of those games and I remember us calling it out.

Jordan has beat more 55 win, 60 win teams than lebron.

Jordan has beaten more teams with more all stars than lebron and was in the east dominating it when the east was the better conference. You would be hard pressed finding 1 clear hall of famer lebron got through in the east. Outside of that older celtics team.

Lebron being scared as hell of that free throw line late. Jordan embraced that pressure. Its no telling how many games we won just on the back of under a minute game within a few points Jordan driving to the rim forcing the refs to make the call going to the line late and nailing 2-4 free throws. Lebron is still scared of that scenario and avoids it at all cost.

The superteam template was started by lebron and has hurt the competitive balance in the league. Lebron apologist sell this as "who needed help" there is a difference between getting "help" and joining forces with guys who were already top 10 players all stars and out -talenting the rest of the league. Jordan faced teams that were just as loaded as the bulls but Jordan was the x factor and Jordan being better and the Ultimate closer sealed the fate of the other team. Lebron been facing teams that are not close to as loaded as his and it seems everytime he is confronted with equal talent he loses.

Those are my main reasons.

[Jeffster81]

The biggest difference is that Lebron needed other GREAT players to help him get over the hump. Bulls never acquired a talent of Love, Wade, Bosh or even Anthony Davis. Pippen was a draft (and traded for) and developed guy for the Bulls. The biggest acquisitions during Jordan's tenure was signing Steve Kerr and trading for Dennis Rodman. MJ willed his team to victory, LBJ schemed his way to victory.

The best I can do for LBJ is that he'll be the GOAT of the 21st century. Overall, I'd put him 3rd behind Jordan and Russell. No shame in that.

There is no real answer but what would happen if LBJ had played for the Bulls during MJ's era and MJ took LBJ spot in today's era? Would LBJ left the Bulls and join Riley in NY or Magic in L.A. or even Hakeem in Houston? Even if he stay, would he had gotten anther great player of that era to come to Chicago? How long would it take for LBJ to have Pippen traded? Would MJ leave Cleveland for Miami. Would Bosh/Wade turn down Miami to play with MJ in Cleveland?

[weneeda2guard]

I see Pippen brought up as a detriment to MJ more and more in the GOAT debate nowadays. MJ never won anything without Pippen. LeBron didn't need any single player. Its just silly to me. As if somehow MJ's career would have been more impressive if he jumped from team to team joining multiple allstars. Would MJ be looked at more favorably if he joined Stockton and Malone for a few years, then Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp for a few years, then finished off his career playing with Shaq for a few years? Hey, at least then you couldn't say that he "needed" Pippen. MJ didn't need Pippen, specifically. He just needed a good team. People don't win without other stars (except Dirk)

I'm definitely not a LeBron fan, but Jordan did play FOR YEARS with THREE future Hall of Famers. Yes, I'm counting Kukoc in that group, because he's getting in eventually.

That is just ridiculous. And it does matter.

Jordan coached and trained his roster into being a title contending team made known by the last dance documentary. It was total team turnover and a lot of moving parts at time and still the squad remained elite due to jordan toughening up and pushing his squad. This is entirely different than lebron joining players who were already all stars leading teams to the playoffs before they even got with lebron. Pippen was not even a high talent coming out the draft. He was a practical unknown who was skinny soft and jordan had to toughen up. Rodman was a headache who was on his way out the league after doing horrible with the spurs. We can't act like the bulls traded for karl malone Shawn Kemp or barkley here. Rodman wasn't in their stratosphere as a talent in the 90s. The rest of the bulls roster were literally mediocre journeymen some who were half way on there way out the league before they got to the bulls. Give jordan talent on the level of Anthony Davis kyrie Irving Kevin love dwade and bosh and jordan would have tortured the league. Its not the same at all.

[LateNight]

First of all - Lebron seems like a really good person and I have a lot of respect for what he has done off the court. He’s also clearly very talented.

But ive never been a fan, and I find it off-putting that he is constantly whining during games (which is especially annoying considering how infrequently refs call him for charging).

All things considered though, I think he’s probably Top 5 all time. Definitely top 10

[sco]

I'll concede LBJ is the GOAT if he can take the Bulls to a championship.

I'd settle for him buying the team after he retires and makes them a champion.

[troza]

Jordan always took the best player on the opposing team especially if they were at his position. Dont give me the magic Johnson retort 1. Magic was not at jordans position 2. Jordan wanted to defend magic Phil overruled it. 3. Magic was covered by pippen so they could defend him 94 feet and try to get the ball out of magics hand earlier in the lakers offense to prevent their back cuts and fast breaks and most of the time the player helping once magic crossed half court was Jordan. Not to mention it was still many possessions Jordan defended magic. But on the defensive end, their is no comparison Jordan was 10x better

That is actually something that gets wrong many times.

In 91 Jordan, Pippen and Grant took turns defending Magic Johnson giving him different looks and lots of pressure.

I need to rewatch 92 finals and the 93 but in the second 3-peat Jordan didn't guard the opposing best player in the perimeter as often as during the first 3 peat. If I'm not mistaken, he didn't guard regularly Reggie Miller in the Pacers series (it was Ron Harper... Pippen on Mark Jackson and Jordan on Mullin) and even against the Hornets he wouldn't be on Wesley long times if I remember correctly. But he did a Lebron impression with changing to Reggie Miller in the 4th quarter of game 7 if I'm not mistaken.

Still... he was an amazing defender. The only guy from the ones that gets talked for goat more often (him, Lebron, Russel, Jabbar) that was a beast on offense and defense.

[aguifs]

LeDouche Ja Ming? Nah


Air Jordan all the way!

[ZOMG]

The biggest difference is that Lebron needed other GREAT players to help him get over the hump. Bulls never acquired a talent of Love, Wade, Bosh or even Anthony Davis. Pippen was a draft (and traded for) and developed guy for the Bulls. The biggest acquisitions during Jordan's tenure was signing Steve Kerr and trading for Dennis Rodman?

Steve Kerr??

Toni Kukoc, when he came over, was the best player in Europe, approaching the peak of his career. And although he didn't start his NBA career with Jordan, he was most definitely drafted by the Bulls to help MJ, which is precisely what he ended up doing (and that's putting it mildly).

As great as MJ was, I hate it when people try to rewrite history and reduce players like Kukoc to footnotes who didn't matter. It's insulting enough that Kukoc still not having been inducted into the HOF has a lot to do with playing with Michael Jordan, even though it's clear that he sacrificed a lot in the NBA and could easily have been a star if he'd been in a featured role on a different team.

[exospheer]

For me, the comparison stops at their competitiveness and the will to win. Lebron has that but its not at Jordan's level. Lebron just won another championship so his stans are going to say all his final appearances and wins etc. But don't forget what happened two years ago.

Watch on YouTube

That would never happen with MJ. If you want to be the GOAT, you can't just limp out of a deciding game in the finals.

[troza]

The biggest difference is that Lebron needed other GREAT players to help him get over the hump. Bulls never acquired a talent of Love, Wade, Bosh or even Anthony Davis. Pippen was a draft (and traded for) and developed guy for the Bulls. The biggest acquisitions during Jordan's tenure was signing Steve Kerr and trading for Dennis Rodman?

Steve Kerr??

Toni Kukoc, when he came over, was the best player in Europe, approaching the peak of his career. And although he didn't start his NBA career with Jordan, he was most definitely drafted by the Bulls to help MJ, which is precisely what he ended up doing (and that's putting it mildly).

As great as MJ was, I hate it when people try to rewrite history and reduce players like Kukoc to footnotes who didn't matter. It's insulting enough that Kukoc still not having been inducted into the HOF has a lot to do with playing with Michael Jordan, even though it's clear that he sacrificed a lot in the NBA and could easily have been a star if he'd been in a featured role on a different team.

Yet at that time it wasn't normal to draft guys from europe, mainly when there was no certainty that they would join their team in the NBA. And they doubter their quality. Nothing to do with Jordan but the Bulls structure and deciding to go for high risk, high reward. Much like the Spurs with Ginobili 10 years later.

Still, Kukoc wasn't at the level of Wade, Bosh or even Anthony Davis. I can see a case for Kevin Love as Kukoc never reached the numbers Love reached at Wolves even when playing without Jordan but... I don't know. And not on Irving's level.

About Steve Kerr... the most accurate 3 point shooter ever is not saying nothing bad. It was actually something the Bulls always did: have 3 point shooting specialists. Not at the level we are today, but ahead of the curve! So that was actually (with Craig Hodges) a good thing from the Chicago Bulls team. And yes, Jordan won with an amazing coach (while Lebron won one with Lue... again that 2016 win is impressive even if I feel that there is lot of underrating those Cavs and overrating those Warriors... Frank Vogel and Spo are very good) and a very good structure (until the toxic environment took over). Just the things Phil told that he had on the Bulls but the Lakers didn't have show that. Still... Lebron was on the Heat. And now on the Lakers.

But I like the way you think. He had help as everyone as this is a team game. He had a team of guys that complemented Jordan very well, were good and some of them were still amazing (in their roles) for championship contender teams after they left the Bulls or right before joining the Bulls, he had an amazing coach and an amazing structure.

What he didn't have was a player of Wade's caliber (his first two finals vs Dallas were at super high level, with numbers that are amazing)... and we will see the career of Anthony Davis to see if Pippen was the better player or not but he has an amazing skillset on defense and offense and he doesn't have a match at 5 in this NBA... ok, he has Joker but I don't remember anyone else right now.

But yeah, neither he won without any good players, neither he had the same level of players as Lebron had mainly during the first 3-peat. We can argue that we had those kind of players on the second 3-peat (but nothing like what the Heat had I would say)

[Chicago-Bull-E]

The debate has exhausted me to the point I don't really care. It's talked endlessly about for the good part of the entire LAST DECADE, and then picks up steam when Lebron wins.

I didn't watch Peyton, or Brees, or Brady, or Rodgers, and go "Oh gosh he's just 1 championship away, or just 2 Superbowls away, or etc etc", I just enjoy watching them play. And that is enough for the NFL.

The NBA needs this discussion, because the season has ended. So we'll get this talk for about 2-3 weeks. Again, it's exhausting.

[dougthonus]

As great as MJ was, I hate it when people try to rewrite history and reduce players like Kukoc to footnotes who didn't matter. It's insulting enough that Kukoc still not having been inducted into the HOF has a lot to do with playing with Michael Jordan, even though it's clear that he sacrificed a lot in the NBA and could easily have been a star if he'd been in a featured role on a different team.

There's really no evidence whatsoever that Toni would have been an NBA star under any circumstances. He was 30 in his first season after Jordan and was never remotely a star when he still should have been at the tail end of his prime.

[troza]

For me, the comparison stops at their competitiveness and the will to win. Lebron has that but its not at Jordan's level. Lebron just won another championship so his stans are going to say all his final appearances and wins etc. But don't forget what happened two years ago.

Watch on YouTube

That would never happen with MJ. If you want to be the GOAT, you can't just limp out of a deciding game in the finals.

Although you are right about that, those finals he played badly on his final game but he still finished those series with monster numbers and playing like Jimmy did in this year's finals. The difference on talent was huge so even if he did gave up in the final game (he could just be too tired), that is one bad example to chose because there was just no chance.

[dougthonus]

Although you are right about that, those finals he played badly on his final game but he still finished those series with monster numbers and playing like Jimmy did in this year's finals. The difference on talent was huge so even if he did gave up in the final game (he could just be too tired), that is one bad example to chose because there was just no chance.

I agree that LeBron was just outgunned, but he quit. Stopped shooting. Just quit. He did that with the Cavs (pre Miami) against Boston as well. There are times where he's just given up. Jimmy Butler and the Heat were completely outgunned and outmanned in this series and lost 2-4 in six games. Spurs got a game off the Warriors that year, Pelicans got a game off the Warriors that year, Rockets got 3 games off the Warriors that year. Cavs got 0 games.

I don't think LeBron and the Cavs could have won. I think they had no chance of that, but they should have been able to get a game.

One thing that's funny is Kobe did the same thing in a playoff game (just quit and refused to shoot) and people don't really remember it, but I suppose that's because no one is arguing Kobe as GOAT anymore.

[Mech Engineer]

Against elite competition of his era, MJ performed better than LeBron. As Hubie Brown says, the competition goes up after 2nd round. How you perform consistently after 2nd round is what distinguishes the greats from good players. LeBron has failed a lot without great superstars around him at that level especially in Cleveland when he was racking up regular season stats.
And, let's not forget that Popovich's mistake in Game 6 gave him a bonus championship. I consider LeBron has only 3 championships for discussion purposes.
LeBron is a great player but he has failed again and again against elite competition and that removes it from the GOAT conversation. He is probably the 2nd best player in the history of the league considering a lot of things compared to the 60s, 70s, 80s basketball.

[troza]

Although you are right about that, those finals he played badly on his final game but he still finished those series with monster numbers and playing like Jimmy did in this year's finals. The difference on talent was huge so even if he did gave up in the final game (he could just be too tired), that is one bad example to chose because there was just no chance.

I agree that LeBron was just outgunned, but he quit. Stopped shooting. Just quit. He did that with the Cavs (pre Miami) against Boston as well. There are times where he's just given up. Jimmy Butler and the Heat were completely outgunned and outmanned in this series and lost 2-4 in six games. Spurs got a game off the Warriors that year, Pelicans got a game off the Warriors that year, Rockets got 3 games off the Warriors that year. Cavs got 0 games.

I don't think LeBron and the Cavs could have won. I think they had no chance of that, but they should have been able to get a game.

One thing that's funny is Kobe did the same thing in a playoff game (just quit and refused to shoot) and people don't really remember it, but I suppose that's because no one is arguing Kobe as GOAT anymore.

This one?

Watch on YouTube

[otwok]

This is my take. Lebron is an amazing basketball player. He is hands down the second greatest basketball player I have ever seen play. Jordan is the first. There is just so much aside from stats, finals appearances whatever. You never thought Jordan was going to lose. He beat HoF players after HoF players and never once did you think "man, I'm worried that Karl Malone will single handedly take over this series." Or never did you think "it's very possible that the person guarding Jordan is going to outplay him and win finals mvp."

Those who just say stuff like 6/6 for jordan they are really undermining how great Jordan really was at the game of basketball. Now we can talk about eras and what not, that's fine but Jordan had a trait that wasn't defined by era. It was straight "I'm going to beat you. I don't care how or when." Once Jordan got to the top of the mountain the only player that took Jordan down was - Jordan. Nobody else. That's what GOATs do. HoF players that won championships during Jordan's reign? Just his teammates. For Lebron - it's not the same.

Lebron fans say things like Lebron never had the help. Well that's not true. In fact he had more help than Jordan. And even if it was true - aside from his first stint in Cleveland, Lebron literally picked his teams. He chose to go to Miami and team up with Wade and Bosh, and when they were losing it was "Lebron doesn't have help" then he chose to go back to Cleveland and play with Kyrie and whoever they were going to trade Wiggins for (Love) and when they were losing it was "he doesn't have help" and he chose to play with the Lakers and when they didn't make the playoffs it was "Lebron was hurt, doesn't have help" and then when they get Anthony Davis it's "All Lebron, he doesn't need a sidekick."

Lebron cries that he wants his damn respect, Jordan just takes it and beats it out of you. That is the major difference between the two. And my high school basketball coach used to tell us Mental is to Physical as two is to one and that reigns true in this debate.

[R3AL1TY]

LeDouche Ja Ming? Nah


Air Jordan all the way!

lmao...this is crazy. I came across this image on reddit a few seconds ago, then checked out this thread and it's here too.

[transplant]

I don't expect James to get a fair hearing on this forum for obvious reasons.

In 1998, when my son was 10 years old, I remember watching a Bulls playoff game with him and telling him that he was watching the greatest player in the history of team sports. I haven't changed my opinion.

This said, if someone gets all feisty and claims that James is the GOAT, I won't argue all that hard. There's a case to be made for James. However, Jordan's success was more organic...he played on one team with the supporting cast he was given. Though he certainly lobbied Krause to acquire certain players (e.g., Walter Davis), he led the teams he was given to greatness.

There's not a definitive measurement for the best ever...it's clearly a subjective thing. Someone will do a poll and James will come out as the GOAT. I'm fine with this. I read all the time that Mike Trout is the best baseball player who ever played and that the analytics prove it. I've seen Trout play and I saw Willie Mays play. Mays is still the best I ever saw.