Lavine extension and renegotiation

[dougthonus]

This part of the CBA is new to me and I don't think I understand it all.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59

Teams can renegotiate a contract, which is news to me. The team has to be under the salary cap. The original deal had to be 4 years and you can't renegotiate until after 3 years.

The Bulls are in a unique position in that they can actually meet all of those requirements this summer with Lavine. I was unaware of this until today. This is not an "extension" situation where after this year his salary goes up. His salary this year can go up.

I'm trying to figure out his max. Assuming he doesn't make all NBA or win the MVP, I think its 30% of the cap or $32.6m. Taking a quick stab at it, the Bulls could use an additional $12.6m in capspace and lock up Lavine to a 5 year $190m contract. This would replace his 1 year $20m remaining.

Everyone with me? Am I wrong anywhere?

I have been saying that Lavine can walk on here quite regularly. I'll freely admit I didn't completely understand the rules as I have never seen a player in this position actually do this. This is all rather unique.

Personally, I would strongly consider making this offer to Zach. If he says no, the Bulls probably want to consider trading him as it will be a clear sign his head is elsewhere.

I'm not sure everyone realizes the Bulls can use a portion of their capspace to lock up Zach for 5 years. I certainly didn't.

I've been talking about this on my podcast for the last couple months as something I absolutely would do. I think it is a no brainer relative to other choices, and everything you have said matches my understanding of the rules.

[TheStig]

I agree with you in that the Bulls should offer this, however, I disagree that by Zach rejecting this, it would mean that it's a clear indicator that his head is elsewhere. If he declines, he could simply be wanting to see what his options are, and that's never a bad thing when you have that option available to you.

Correct me if I'm wrong but would an extension have to be shorter than what he could sign in FA. I think Harden got 3 years (the year he was in and 2 added on) when this was added on.

I also don't think the Bulls should do this. They should use the cap space to improve the team.

I believe that the contract is restricted to 5 years, regardless of when you sign it. If he signs a max deal this summer, it would end in 2026. If he signs it a year from now, it would end in 2027.

I think that people looking for improvements via free agency are going to be sorely disappointed. I wouldn't be surprised if the team keeps Sato and Young and uses $12m to lock up Zach then extends Lauri. I suspect the team is going to use the rest of this year to see if that team can work or not.

CF extenstions are always at least a year shorter than a new contract. I don't think it works the same way as FA.

I think people looking at this team with just Zach and the young guys will be even more disappointed. It's just going nowhere fast. If they plan on making the playoffs, they'll have to use some money on vets.

[coldfish]

Correct me if I'm wrong but would an extension have to be shorter than what he could sign in FA. I think Harden got 3 years (the year he was in and 2 added on) when this was added on.

I also don't think the Bulls should do this. They should use the cap space to improve the team.

I believe that the contract is restricted to 5 years, regardless of when you sign it. If he signs a max deal this summer, it would end in 2026. If he signs it a year from now, it would end in 2027.

I think that people looking for improvements via free agency are going to be sorely disappointed. I wouldn't be surprised if the team keeps Sato and Young and uses $12m to lock up Zach then extends Lauri. I suspect the team is going to use the rest of this year to see if that team can work or not.

CF extenstions are always at least a year shorter than a new contract. I don't think it works the same way as FA.

I think people looking at this team with just Zach and the young guys will be even more disappointed. It's just going nowhere fast. If they plan on making the playoffs, they'll have to use some money on vets.

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

[qianlong]

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I think we have an extra year if we get some improvement.
Zach, while plenty rich now, signed a below market value contract. He is also better suited to ask for a trade after having signed a max contract or close to it.

Again, if there is no improvement, I get it, he probably leaves as soon as possible; if we have some improvements this year, some move to improve and not sell out, and make the playoffs or at least the play in, then I think we can keep him.

I think the only chance to get a second star, is having the first (Zach) and improving the team.

If we plan on getting the star through the draft, then we better trade Zach now while his value is at an all time high.

[WindyCityBorn]

I believe that the contract is restricted to 5 years, regardless of when you sign it. If he signs a max deal this summer, it would end in 2026. If he signs it a year from now, it would end in 2027.

I think that people looking for improvements via free agency are going to be sorely disappointed. I wouldn't be surprised if the team keeps Sato and Young and uses $12m to lock up Zach then extends Lauri. I suspect the team is going to use the rest of this year to see if that team can work or not.

Might be good to sneak into the playoffs next season and get swept unless Williams explodes in his second season. Is that considered working? We still need a starting PG and center. Thad and Sato are great backups to play 24 minutes a night. By trade or free agency this team needs external help.

If you look around the league, most teams give big money to 2 to 3 players. Everyone else is a MLE type vet or less or on their rookie deal. The Bulls aren't some super high spending team that is going to pay 5 players $20m per year or more.

If Lauri + Lavine + vets can't make the playoffs and do well, the Bulls should seriously consider moving on from one or both of them. I strongly suspect what is going on right now is an extended try out for that.

There are a lot of fans here that have decided that Lauri + Lavine doesn't work. That's fair and they very well may be proven right. A lot of them haven't got the corollary that it means roster changes and not just additions.

Last note: The fact that Coby, Wendell, Valentine and Hutch look like near non contributors is a big part of Chicago's problem. A team needs a steady stream of youth to fill in the cracks. Its going to take years to really undo the damage from the bad drafting. If those 4 were replaced with Cam Johnson, SGA, Devonte Graham and Pascal Siakam we would be thinking long term contention.

They might be vets, but they are not really starter quality players. Thad nor Sato would start for most playoff teams. It’s not realistic to expect Lauri and Zach to low bench talent far on the playoffs. Oh and I’m past thinking Lauri is an all- star caliber talent. He can still improve, but I just don’t see the raw talent like I did with LaVine that just needs to be refined. Hopefully he changes my mind over the rest of the season.

[TheStig]

I believe that the contract is restricted to 5 years, regardless of when you sign it. If he signs a max deal this summer, it would end in 2026. If he signs it a year from now, it would end in 2027.

I think that people looking for improvements via free agency are going to be sorely disappointed. I wouldn't be surprised if the team keeps Sato and Young and uses $12m to lock up Zach then extends Lauri. I suspect the team is going to use the rest of this year to see if that team can work or not.

CF extenstions are always at least a year shorter than a new contract. I don't think it works the same way as FA.

I think people looking at this team with just Zach and the young guys will be even more disappointed. It's just going nowhere fast. If they plan on making the playoffs, they'll have to use some money on vets.

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

[sco]

CF extenstions are always at least a year shorter than a new contract. I don't think it works the same way as FA.

I think people looking at this team with just Zach and the young guys will be even more disappointed. It's just going nowhere fast. If they plan on making the playoffs, they'll have to use some money on vets.

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

We have a viable #1 option on the team and the ability to free-up space for 2 max slots. We won't be in a better place to build on from here for a long time. Even if you got 3 #1's for Zach, the chance that one of them is better than him has to be pretty low.

[RagingBull316]

If the difference is $151million this off-season or $190 million next off-season. I would expect Zach to take the $151 million this off-season if the Bulls offer it.

Since he has already torn his ACL he probably will look at the offer much differently then other players in his position. He has already lived how quickly his career can change in a blink of an eye.

Unfortunately I don't think the Bulls will offer him the full amount this off-season, because Jerry loves to low-ball for financial security. So I bet they try to offer him $141 million and a deal doesn't get done over $10 million, and it screws the team over in the long run.

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[pipfan]

This is a good idea. We bring back Sato and TYoung-then we have 2 expirings to play with, if a star becomes available

[dougthonus]

I believe that the contract is restricted to 5 years, regardless of when you sign it. If he signs a max deal this summer, it would end in 2026. If he signs it a year from now, it would end in 2027.

I think that people looking for improvements via free agency are going to be sorely disappointed. I wouldn't be surprised if the team keeps Sato and Young and uses $12m to lock up Zach then extends Lauri. I suspect the team is going to use the rest of this year to see if that team can work or not.

CF extenstions are always at least a year shorter than a new contract. I don't think it works the same way as FA.

I think people looking at this team with just Zach and the young guys will be even more disappointed. It's just going nowhere fast. If they plan on making the playoffs, they'll have to use some money on vets.

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

This is correct.

Using their cap room, the Bulls can renegotiate Zach's contract up to the max for next season (ie, we will increase his 21/22 cap number) and then we can extend him for four more years after that at the max contract.

Doing so will give Zach an additional 14M or so over what he would get if he were to wait until he's a FA and sign with the Bulls for four years (though he'd be eligible to sign for 5 at that time).

[WindyCityBorn]

CF extenstions are always at least a year shorter than a new contract. I don't think it works the same way as FA.

I think people looking at this team with just Zach and the young guys will be even more disappointed. It's just going nowhere fast. If they plan on making the playoffs, they'll have to use some money on vets.

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

Yes let’s move Zach and have nothing but hopes and dreams instead young all/star that hasn’t hit his peak. Sounds exactly like a GarPax move that you hated.

[TheStig]

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

We have a viable #1 option on the team and the ability to free-up space for 2 max slots. We won't be in a better place to build on from here for a long time. Even if you got 3 #1's for Zach, the chance that one of them is better than him has to be pretty low.

You can't have 2 max slots with Zach making the max. And who is that you're signing for the max? Who are these max FA's hitting the market in the next year or 2 and why are they coming here? Do we believe that Kawai is leaving LA for Chicago? Are Harden, KD and Irving leaving Brooklyn to play here? I don't see it and most of these guys have signed extensions like AD and PG.

I don't think FA is going to be a path for us. And that's including the fact we've never landed the guy.

The trade market is even harder. Our assets are the untouchable Zach, Pwill and some mid 1sts. What star are you landing with Carter, Lauri and Coby and some mid 1sts?

I just don't see the path. And as good as Zach has been, I don't think it will be good enough to get us in the playoffs. You have to get some talent on the team and we just don't have a viable path.

[TheStig]

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

Yes let’s move Zach and have nothing but hopes and dreams instead young all/star that hasn’t hit his peak. Sounds exactly like a GarPax move that you hated.

I hated that move because we had 2 pieces in Jimmy and Mirotic and were going into FA with cap space and free agents to go after. That's just not the case now. The FA market is barren. Our assets are poor. There is just no avenue for improvement. Jimmy was also better. He got us into the playoffs. He was an all nba player. There is a reason he qualified for the supermax. It's not just my imagination. We'll see if Zach can pull it off. But in a piss poor east, we likely won't be a playoff team. I would be shocked if Indy and Toronto don't pass us.

[WindyCityBorn]

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

Yes let’s move Zach and have nothing but hopes and dreams instead young all/star that hasn’t hit his peak. Sounds exactly like a GarPax move that you hated.

I hated that move because we had 2 pieces in Jimmy and Mirotic and were going into FA with cap space and free agents to go after. That's just not the case now. The FA market is barren. Our assets are poor. There is just no avenue for improvement. Jimmy was also better. He got us into the playoffs. He was an all nba player. There is a reason he qualified for the supermax. It's not just my imagination. We'll see if Zach can pull it off. But in a piss poor east, we likely won't be a playoff team. I would be shocked if Indy and Toronto don't pass us.

No one said it would be easy or quick, but we are making progress IMO. Hopefully AK has a better than let’s suck and hope the draft gods save us. That rarely works out.

[TheStig]

Yes let’s move Zach and have nothing but hopes and dreams instead young all/star that hasn’t hit his peak. Sounds exactly like a GarPax move that you hated.

I hated that move because we had 2 pieces in Jimmy and Mirotic and were going into FA with cap space and free agents to go after. That's just not the case now. The FA market is barren. Our assets are poor. There is just no avenue for improvement. Jimmy was also better. He got us into the playoffs. He was an all nba player. There is a reason he qualified for the supermax. It's not just my imagination. We'll see if Zach can pull it off. But in a piss poor east, we likely won't be a playoff team. I would be shocked if Indy and Toronto don't pass us.

No one said it would be easy or quick, but we are making progress IMO. Hopefully AK has a better than let’s suck and hope the draft gods save us. That rarely works out.

WCB I don't want to rebuild. It's not fun. I just don't see the path to a really good team. Like others have said, between 2012 and 2019 we have had poor talent enter the team. It's hard to stop with nothing outside of Zach. It takes more than one good player. That's why I think if you can get a great package for Zach, you do it. You need a huge influx of talent.

[WindyCityBorn]

I hated that move because we had 2 pieces in Jimmy and Mirotic and were going into FA with cap space and free agents to go after. That's just not the case now. The FA market is barren. Our assets are poor. There is just no avenue for improvement. Jimmy was also better. He got us into the playoffs. He was an all nba player. There is a reason he qualified for the supermax. It's not just my imagination. We'll see if Zach can pull it off. But in a piss poor east, we likely won't be a playoff team. I would be shocked if Indy and Toronto don't pass us.

No one said it would be easy or quick, but we are making progress IMO. Hopefully AK has a better than let’s suck and hope the draft gods save us. That rarely works out.

WCB I don't want to rebuild. It's not fun. I just don't see the path to a really good team. Like others have said, between 2012 and 2019 we have had poor talent enter the team. It's hard to stop with nothing outside of Zach. It takes more than one good player. That's why I think if you can get a great package for Zach, you do it. You need a huge influx of talent.

Draft well and make good trades and free agent signings. Teams like Utah and Denver didn’t get good because of high draft picks. Neither did Miami or Toronto. I’m hoping AK brings what worked for Denver here. We will have no bad contracts after this season, a TON of cap space and a young all-star elite scorer. And probably another lottery pick that could land in the top 5. And one of the biggest markets in the country with a huge following worldwide. There is nothing hopeless about our situation for a front office that knows what they are doing.

[Leslie Forman]

This is basically exactly what Jimmy Butler was asking Glen Taylor for, which they couldn't do, of course, because he decided to give Andrew Wiggins a max instead of letting Thibs dump him for Jimmy in the first place.

As for giving $200mil to Zach, I think it's an absolutely awful idea based on fluke numbers in a fluke season that you'll regret very quickly but…you might also be able to up his trade value since he'll be locked up instead of expiring. But if he comes out next year not shooting like he's prime Steph Curry, well…you've probably just lost all those gains in trade value anyways, and also screwed yourself out of any cap space for 2021.

[AhUtopian]

IIRC,Robert Covington was applied to same CBA rules when on sixers jersey.

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[TheStig]

No one said it would be easy or quick, but we are making progress IMO. Hopefully AK has a better than let’s suck and hope the draft gods save us. That rarely works out.

WCB I don't want to rebuild. It's not fun. I just don't see the path to a really good team. Like others have said, between 2012 and 2019 we have had poor talent enter the team. It's hard to stop with nothing outside of Zach. It takes more than one good player. That's why I think if you can get a great package for Zach, you do it. You need a huge influx of talent.

Draft well and make good trades and free agent signings. Teams like Utah and Denver didn’t get good because of high draft picks. Neither did Miami or Toronto. I’m hoping AK brings what worked for Denver here. We will have no bad contracts after this season, a TON of cap space and a young all-star elite scorer. And probably another lottery pick that could land in the top 5. And one of the biggest markets in the country with a huge following worldwide. There is nothing hopeless about our situation for a front office that knows what they are doing.

For all those examples you named, there are many more failures and lots of luck. Those guys nailed a hail mary late 1st or 2nd round pick to get their guy or Miami signed a star. That's not really a plan. You can't rely on getting a MVP guy with a 2nd rounder or DPOY with a late 1st or signing an all nba guy. It's like saying your financial plan is to buy a bunch of lotto tickets.

[WindyCityBorn]

WCB I don't want to rebuild. It's not fun. I just don't see the path to a really good team. Like others have said, between 2012 and 2019 we have had poor talent enter the team. It's hard to stop with nothing outside of Zach. It takes more than one good player. That's why I think if you can get a great package for Zach, you do it. You need a huge influx of talent.

Draft well and make good trades and free agent signings. Teams like Utah and Denver didn’t get good because of high draft picks. Neither did Miami or Toronto. I’m hoping AK brings what worked for Denver here. We will have no bad contracts after this season, a TON of cap space and a young all-star elite scorer. And probably another lottery pick that could land in the top 5. And one of the biggest markets in the country with a huge following worldwide. There is nothing hopeless about our situation for a front office that knows what they are doing.

For all those examples you named, there are many more failures and lots of luck. Those guys nailed a hail mary late 1st or 2nd round pick to get their guy or Miami signed a star. That's not really a plan. You can't rely on getting a MVP guy with a 2nd rounder or DPOY with a late 1st or signing an all nba guy. It's like saying your financial plan is to buy a bunch of lotto tickets.

Funny considering you just want to live in the literal lottery hoping to find a star. Great players get chosen later than the top 5 all time now and I guess you are completely disregarding Williams as a potential second star or trading for one?