Lonzo Ball discussion thread

[Ice Man]

Think young Kirk Hinrich, with less scoring and better outlet passes.

[MrFortune3]

Ball is exactly who we signed and who we needed. Fits in very well.

[nanokooshball]

- Incredible defense. Way better than I expected. Great rebounding as well.
- His ball handling is way worse than I thought. He protects the ball for the most part, but can't create for himself at all. Next summer the thing he needs to do is just sit through ball handling drills. He also needs to learn how to finish at the rim from Derozan.
- Good 3 pt shooting; I still feel like he hesitates a half second longer than I would like. He just needs to let it fly, and he's proven he's a good enough shooter to do so. If your only offense is 3 pt shooting, you need to make defenses pay, and you need to have them be worried enough so that they can't sag off you.

[madvillian]

Think young Kirk Hinrich, with less scoring and better outlet passes.

Yea I can see that. Similar impact defensively, not great in the half court. Lonzo is certainly the better transition player and neither guy is that good at running a half court offense. Kirk had more scoring volume but it wasn't that efficient. Thankfully Lonzo has more scorers around him than Kirk did.

[nanokooshball]

Think young Kirk Hinrich, with less scoring and better outlet passes.

Yea I can see that. Similar impact defensively, not great in the half court. Lonzo is certainly the better transition player and neither guy is that good at running a half court offense. Kirk had more scoring volume but it wasn't that efficient. Thankfully Lonzo has more scorers around him than Kirk did.

I think Lonzo's defense is tiers greater thanHinrich. Hinrich was a great individual defender and knew where to be and where to help. However, Lonzo is EVERYWHERE. He literally is our version of Draymond. Kirk's ceiling was maybe a 2nd team all defense guard; Lonzo is in conversation of top 5 DPOY candidate.

Kirk, I would say had a little bit better handle and could get to the rim a bit better. Had a much better mid range shot and cross over mid range shot. But, I think Lonzo in general runs the offense better, sees things 2-3 steps ahead of things and makes the smart hockey pass. Whereas Hinrich would generally run in circles and hold onto the ball way longer without any real clear goal.

[Mindcrime]

Lonzo is fine and just what he is - in fact a little bit better than i expected. A good, versatile playmaking/long wing who isn't flashy but get's the jobe done. We are very fortunate to embrace him as that and not looking at him as some kind of savior and franchaise type of player. Hey if tonight's game is one of his "off games" i'm good with it, next time he explodes with a triple-double the whole board would be of the moon, the main question (not only with him, but the rest of the group) would be what happens come playoff time.

[nomorezorro]

he’s a fine role player, but christ, can you imagine what a disaster this contract would have been if we didn’t lock down derozan

[jordanwilliams6]

he’s a fine role player, but christ, can you imagine what a disaster this contract would have been if we didn’t lock down derozan

Agreed. We're probably sitting below 0.500 without DDR and we'd be having all kinds of issues.

He's going to be a very solid player on a very good team IMO. He just doesn't have the ability to be a third option due to his inability to create his own shot. Lonzo's value will always be his shooting, defense and intangibles he brings to a squad.

[brentmoney]

we wouldn't be as good without DDR but in that scenario vuc might have more touches and not be so in his head.

[kulaz3000]

he’s a fine role player, but christ, can you imagine what a disaster this contract would have been if we didn’t lock down derozan

Not really. His contract would still be a fair value deal. But he would probably get heaped on more because we'd probably be losing, being that he would have been the new fresh addition.

[WindyCityBorn]

Lonzo has been a great addition. Would like to see him be more active with the ball in the half court sets and we saw that against the Nets.

[WindyCityBorn]

he’s a fine role player, but christ, can you imagine what a disaster this contract would have been if we didn’t lock down derozan

Agreed. We're probably sitting below 0.500 without DDR and we'd be having all kinds of issues.

He's going to be a very solid player on a very good team IMO. He just doesn't have the ability to be a third option due to his inability to create his own shot. Lonzo's value will always be his shooting, defense and intangibles he brings to a squad.

Did anyone ever expect him to be a 3rd option? I definitely didn’t. I think once he gets better in half court he score a bit more than he does right now though.

[Ice Man]

Not really. His contract would still be a fair value deal. But he would probably get heaped on more because we'd probably be losing, being that he would have been the new fresh addition.

Yep. He would be facing expectations that he can't meet. Whereas right now, he's where he needs to be. He is expected to be a lockdown defender, primary ballhandler and sometimes distributor, and ancillary scorer. He can do all those things. Just not more.

[nomorezorro]

he’s a fine role player, but christ, can you imagine what a disaster this contract would have been if we didn’t lock down derozan

Not really. His contract would still be a fair value deal. But he would probably get heaped on more because we'd probably be losing, being that he would have been the new fresh addition.

lonzo is a luxury at his current price, not a good value. it’s nice to have him because his strengths fit with the rest of the roster and his weaknesses don’t drag us down much, but if we paid him $20 million to be our third best offensive player it would have been a nightmare

even if you argue that is the price you have to pay for a player of his caliber, people would rightfully ask why the front office would expect that caliber of player to move the needle on his own without another major addition like derozan

[HomoSapien]

Lonzo talked about how he wanted to play in Chicago because we sold him on the idea of being able to play like a more traditional PG. Now he's averaging a career-low in assists and his usage is also near a career low. We're winning and he seems to be a pretty unselfish guy, but wonder if that's something that eventually becomes a thing.

[GoBlue72391]

The majority of this board seemed to share the strange belief that Lonzo is a complete, all-around PG and floor general despite the stats, analytics, and film making it clear that he is not that player at all. He is good at what he does, but the fact is he doesn't do a whole lot, and we should have known and expected that when we signed him.

Pros:
- Fantastic transition playmaker with impeccable vision and instincts
- Very versatile and disruptive defender that can switch and guard multiple positions
- Good 3-point shooter on spot-up/catch-and-shoot opportunities
- Good rebounder for a PG
- Reasonably athletic

Cons:
- Scoring is mostly limited to spot-up threes and transition baskets
- Very poor finisher and because of that is not a consistent threat to drive, cut, or get to the FT line
- His halfcourt playmaking, especially in the P&R, is limited due to his inability to be a consistent scoring threat
- Due to his lack of scoring ability and limited halfcourt playmaking, his teammates receive more attention from opposing defenses
- Doesn't seem to be consistently capable of making use of his significant size advantage against most opposing PGs

With the exception of his defense, which has been better than I expected, Lonzo is exactly the player I thought he was. Ricky Rubio is closer to this board's vision of who they thought/hoped Lonzo is. I think the disconnect between what Lonzo is and what many thought/hoped he was is mostly due to our complete lack of good PG play over the last several years combined with the amount of hype Lonzo and his family have received since before he even entered the league, most of it undeserved.

He has a grand total of 6 FT attempts this season (0.6 per game) and is shooting under 50% on lay-ups (7 of 15). He can't consistently penetrate and break down the defense which significantly limits his halfcourt playmaking ability and he's not a threat as a scorer in the P&R, so defenders will typically ignore him and focus on the roll man, which limits makes things harder on his teammates.

At the time, I believed we overpaid for him and I still believe that. Not significantly, and I doubt his contract will have any negative effects on us now or in the future, but to me he seems like more of a $15-18M player rather than a $20M+ player. Unless significant changes to his game are made, he's never going to be a consistent halfcourt playmaker, finisher, or scoring threat, so we shouldn't expect that of him.

He is what he is, which is a good role player with significant limitations. He's basically a 3&D PG, and that's not a bad thing.

[GoBlue72391]

I know many Bulls fans don't want to hear this but he shouldn't run PnRs, especially when DeRozan and/or LaVine are out there with him. He rarely gets to the rim and is terrible from the midrange (honestly, most shots aren't even close), so teams can completely focus on guarding the pass instead of a potential shot. His best offensive role is still clearly to be a catch & shoot weapon in the halfcourt and a playmaker in transition. Off-ball movement needs to get better, though.

Defensively, he's been amazing. Much better than last year, too, especially on-ball.

Very happy with him overall. The defense is key.

I said this very thing during the offseason and used stats and film to prove it and was basically told that I was wrong, that he is in fact a great P&R playmaker and halfcourt facilitator. I'm not trying to pay myself on the back, as I couldn't care less about that and I've been wrong way more than I've been right, but it's just weird to have spent the offseason trying to show people what kind of player Lonzo really is rather than the player they deluded themselves into believing he is and only now it seems like people are coming around to reality.

Don't mistake me for hating on Lonzo; he's been a good pickup and big contributor for us so far.

[MrSparkle]

Lonzo talked about how he wanted to play in Chicago because we sold him on the idea of being able to play like a more traditional PG. Now he's averaging a career-low in assists and his usage is also near a career low. We're winning and he seems to be a pretty unselfish guy, but wonder if that's something that eventually becomes a thing.

Also feel like Demar and Zach would be glad to give him more handling duties, but he doesn’t have an on-ball move. The nice thing about the camaraderie is they probably want to help each other in the off-season. I see Lonzo getting good mentorship from Demar; if he learns some footwork and can figure out a midrange scoring move, he’d exponentially help the team. Right now… Definitely a dead-end asking him to create his own bucket.

[GoBlue72391]

Love his defense and 3 pt shooting but there is a couple things that I would love to see him work on to help with his and the Bulls scoring and those are:

-More cuts to the basket. He is always looking for the 3 and that helps but he should cut more to draw attention or the bucket. If he is covered on the cut then go back to the 3 pt line for the spot up.

- Post up. For a PG he is a massive. He can take a lot of these 6-6'2 PG in the post and dominate them. He will need some time to work on it but can see him both score down low and also draw doubles then using his vision to pick apart the defense.

-Picks. Think running a high pick and roll with Lavine would be interesting. If they double Lavine then he gets the ball in the middle of the floor and can drive and score or drive and pass. Would confuse the defense as they are not use to defending PG/SG pick and roll

He doesn't cut to the basket more because he's a poor finisher, so I don't think he should do more of something he's not good at.

As for posting up, the same thing applies. Does he even have a post game? I haven't seen it, which leads me to believe the answer is no. So if he's not capable of posting up he shouldn't do it.

He doesn't do more of these things because he's not good at them. Ideally, he will add these aspects to his game during the offseason, but that's an ideal scenario.

[GoBlue72391]

Think young Kirk Hinrich, with less scoring and better outlet passes.

Yea I can see that. Similar impact defensively, not great in the half court. Lonzo is certainly the better transition player and neither guy is that good at running a half court offense. Kirk had more scoring volume but it wasn't that efficient. Thankfully Lonzo has more scorers around him than Kirk did.

I think Lonzo's defense is tiers greater thanHinrich. Hinrich was a great individual defender and knew where to be and where to help. However, Lonzo is EVERYWHERE. He literally is our version of Draymond. Kirk's ceiling was maybe a 2nd team all defense guard; Lonzo is in conversation of top 5 DPOY candidate.

Kirk, I would say had a little bit better handle and could get to the rim a bit better. Had a much better mid range shot and cross over mid range shot. But, I think Lonzo in general runs the offense better, sees things 2-3 steps ahead of things and makes the smart hockey pass. Whereas Hinrich would generally run in circles and hold onto the ball way longer without any real clear goal.

Are we forgetting the defense Kirk played on prime D Wade in the playoffs. Lonzo's defense has been pretty great so far, but I would stop short of saying he's tiers greater than Kirk on that side of the ball. Maybe eventually, but I would need to see him do it consistently for years and in the playoffs against the game's best.