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boozapalooza wrote:

jump wrote:So what? Let him have his fun.

Its BLASPHEMOUS and beyond disrespectful to put Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich, two of the most beloved franchise players of the last 25 years, in the same sentence as Pat and Ayo. Luol was at 19-7-2 in his 3rd year at same age as Pat. Went 11 consecutive years averaging 14+ ppg. We can only dream that Pat will live up to Luol’s level, he hasnt scratched that surface his entire career. Don’t even get me started on the Ayo/Kirk comp.

OP showed hes probably just a kid who wasnt alive to watch the 2004-2012 era of Bulls basketball so I’ll give him a break.

It's wasn't the OP who made those comparisons, it was the 2nd post.

prolific passer wrote:

Indomitable wrote:

Muzbar wrote:This is a pretty ridiculous statement. No offence.

I'm gonna assume you've typed them in how you've compared them (Coby = Gordon, Pat = Deng and Ayo = Hinrich)

Let's compare:

Year 5 Coby: 15.6ppg, 4.3apg, 43%fg & 41%3pt
Year 5 Ben: 20.7ppg, 3.4apg, 45%fg & 41%3pt

Year 4 Pat: 8.6ppg, 4.2rpg, 43%fg & 34%3pt
Year 4 Loul: 17ppg, 6.3rpg, 48%fg & 36%3pt (very low volume though)

Year 3 Ayo: 6.4ppg, 1.8apg, 49%fg, 35%3pt
Year 3 Kirk: 15.9ppg, 6.3apg, 42%fg, 37%3pt

Granted this season isn't over, but I don't see any of those guys reaching those levels.

You have Vuk and Demar both eating up shots. Pat is not the same level as Young Luol.

Coby is much better finisher then Ben. He a far superior drive and kick player.

Ayo is a great defender and better in the open court.

Kirk was more polished.

BG7 seems to be one of those guys that people say if he was around 6'5" or so. He would have been unstoppable.
Still was fun to watch and clutch as they come in the league during his 5 years with the bulls.

He had no handle. He was a great shooter.

In the last three games he's averaging 25/7/6 on 70% TS. That will work. Keep it going.

Indomitable wrote:

prolific passer wrote:

Indomitable wrote:You have Vuk and Demar both eating up shots. Pat is not the same level as Young Luol.

Coby is much better finisher then Ben. He a far superior drive and kick player.

Ayo is a great defender and better in the open court.

Kirk was more polished.

BG7 seems to be one of those guys that people say if he was around 6'5" or so. He would have been unstoppable.
Still was fun to watch and clutch as they come in the league during his 5 years with the bulls.

He had no handle. He was a great shooter.

He was frustratingly fun to watch, if that’s a thing. Never saw a player who was so insanely clutch and un-clutch. And sometimes basically simultaneously in the same game.

He was a key element to the success of one of my favorite times ever being be a Bulls fan. It’s hard to even describe how awesome it was to be a fan that 2004-2005 season. What a ride.

I think the bigger the fro gets the more magical he becomes.

Dan Z wrote:Coby improving...Markkanen playing well...maybe GarPax weren't as bad at drafting as some people thought? I say that and still think moving on from them was the right decision.

I've always thought GarPax were pretty good at drafting and I'm pretty sure most people agree. Their issue was failing to properly develop their draft picks, among other things.

boozapalooza wrote:

jump wrote:So what? Let him have his fun.

Its BLASPHEMOUS and beyond disrespectful to put Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich, two of the most beloved franchise players of the last 25 years, in the same sentence as Pat and Ayo. Luol was at 19-7-2 in his 3rd year at same age as Pat. Went 11 consecutive years averaging 14+ ppg. We can only dream that Pat will live up to Luol’s level, he hasnt scratched that surface his entire career. Don’t even get me started on the Ayo/Kirk comp.

OP showed hes probably just a kid who wasnt alive to watch the 2004-2012 era of Bulls basketball so I’ll give him a break.

And keep in mind that was back when defense and physicality were much higher than they are now and points were at a premium. 19 PPG back then meant more than 19 PPG today due to more 3s, weaker defense, and rules in favor of the offense in today's game.

I think that the play of Coby White and Pat Will should entice them to rebuild more.

FriedRise wrote:He led this team from:

Miserable first 19 games
ORTG: 108.9 (26th)
DRTG: 116 (22nd)
NRTG: -7.1 (25th)

to

Last 4 games
ORTG: 118.1 (11th)
DRTG: 110.8 (7th)
NRTG: 7.4 (5th)

In this 4 game winning streak, he's averaging:
24.3p/6.5r/6a on 40/53/87 shooting in 40mpg
TS: 65%
ORTG: 120
DRTG: 112.8
AST%: 20.5%
A/TO: 8.4

I mean, those team numbers obviously are a huge jump that warrants a small sample alert and caution - after all, Coby has done this before for a stretch before regressing back - but if the truth is somewhere in the middle, I'm thinking we have ourselves a starting level PG and a solid team - with about 60M sitting on the bench.

It feels more real because of his improvement in other areas.

bullskokie wrote:Coby, Pat & Ayo are like Gordon, Deng & Hinrich but way better!

/waits for the 6moy trophy + all star nods.

I think someone is forgetting how good the former trio became.

step wrote:

bullskokie wrote:Coby, Pat & Ayo are like Gordon, Deng & Hinrich but way better!

/waits for the 6moy trophy + all star nods.

I think someone is forgetting how good the former trio became.

Plus All-Defense teams.

bullskokie wrote:Coby, Pat & Ayo are like Gordon, Deng & Hinrich but way better!

I like keeping DDR & Vooch with these guys. You guys can see they are gelling well together!

In what world is Pat in the stratosphere of Deng?

GoBlue72391 wrote:

jump wrote:

GoBlue72391 wrote:Good grief, this is so dumb. Our young players go on a hot streak and we collectively lose our minds.

It's not dumb or crazy. The OG made a compelling case that Coby is doing what he's doing lately as a result of a slow steady build. This is how most players get to be great players. There's absolutely no reason to think this is a fluke for Coby and many reasons (as outline above) to believe he is on the path the get better and better.

Pat, too, is obviously progressing. But there is much less evidence that he's going to improve as much as Coby has. Flashes make one hopeful, but not yet confident.

I've always love Ayo, even last year when he was in the dreaded Sophomore Slump. But he's demonstrating that he's smart, a capable 3pt shooter (still progressing), and potentially a very solid starter in the NBA.

And frankly, I think DDR and Vuc are very well suited to play with these guys for the next couple of years as they improve and we develop younger, better players through the draft or through trades.

However, like you, I'm not yet ready to call them Gordon, Deng and Heinrich. Yet!

It's absolutely dumb and crazy to say "Coby, Pat & Ayo are like Gordon, Deng & Hinrich but way better!"

1000% dumb and crazy. I wasn't talking about OP, I was talking specifically about the quoted statement and indirectly about some other comments from the game thread.

Coby has a 67 TS% during this 10-game hot streak. That is completely unsustainable. This will be viewed as hating, but it's not, I'm just trying to be a realist.

I agree, Coby has leveled up. I love Coby and love what he's been doing, but a two-week hot streak isn't enough to raise someone's ceiling from 6th man to star/2nd option on a contender.

This shouldn't be a controversial statement at all.

He was already starter potential. Deferring to Zach, Vuc and Demar clearly stifled his game earlier in the season.


Hopefully we get some in the draft better than Deng, Hinrich or Gordon ever were.

The young trio of Coby, Pat, and Ayo are playing good lately but you gotta pump the breaks on comparing them to previous players on the team that had a substantial career, especially since those previous guys were mainly starters and the current guys still got more playing time to do.

GoBlue72391 wrote:

Dan Z wrote:Coby improving...Markkanen playing well...maybe GarPax weren't as bad at drafting as some people thought? I say that and still think moving on from them was the right decision.

I've always thought GarPax were pretty good at drafting and I'm pretty sure most people agree. Their issue was failing to properly develop their draft picks, among other things.

I agree with you, but many people were complaining that the Bull were in the lottery for a few years (#7 picks) and that nothing came out of those picks.

Dan Z wrote:

GoBlue72391 wrote:

Dan Z wrote:Coby improving...Markkanen playing well...maybe GarPax weren't as bad at drafting as some people thought? I say that and still think moving on from them was the right decision.

I've always thought GarPax were pretty good at drafting and I'm pretty sure most people agree. Their issue was failing to properly develop their draft picks, among other things.

I agree with you, but many people were complaining that the Bull were in the lottery for a few years (#7 picks) and that nothing came out of those picks.

True, but that's mainly because we tanked improperly and as fans had our sights set on higher draft picks than #7. Like that year when Sean Kilpatrick won us some meaningless games to take us out of the Luka sweepstakes.

But getting Lauri, WCJ, and Coby in three straight years with #7 picks is pretty damn good, we just botched their development, although it looks like Coby is course-correcting.

GoBlue72391 wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

GoBlue72391 wrote:I've always thought GarPax were pretty good at drafting and I'm pretty sure most people agree. Their issue was failing to properly develop their draft picks, among other things.

I agree with you, but many people were complaining that the Bull were in the lottery for a few years (#7 picks) and that nothing came out of those picks.

True, but that's mainly because we tanked improperly and as fans had our sights set on higher draft picks than #7. Like that year when Sean Kilpatrick won us some meaningless games to take us out of the Luka sweepstakes.

But getting Lauri, WCJ, and Coby in three straight years with #7 picks is pretty damn good, we just botched their development, although it looks like Coby is course-correcting.

It goes to show how difficult it is to draft from scratch and how you need to be patient with development. In hindsight a starting 5 of Coby/Pat/Lauri/WCJ would be a very good building block for the future with a lot of shooting and defense for the modern NBA. Obviously had we kept all of these players, it’s impossible to know how it would have turned out.

I am wholly curious to see the progression of Coby as the season goes on. He proved his worth as a valuable player last season but he's turning the corner into a key cog in the machine.

bullskokie wrote:Coby, Pat & Ayo are like Gordon, Deng & Hinrich but way better!

I like keeping DDR & Vooch with these guys. You guys can see they are gelling well together!

They have the potential to exceed Gordon, Deng, Hinrich. But still way too early to call it.

Only Coby who I am confidence to say I'd rather have him than Ben Gordon right now. Gordon was an explosive scorer, super clutch, drew comparison to Andrew Toney. But we shouldn't forgot that he has so many holes in other parts of his game. Hence why he's best used as a sixth man. Coby is a lot more balanced, he's bigger, and probably as talented as a volume scorer.

Pat is sold as Deng with higher ceiling. But he still needs to show he's able to play Deng's floor consistently. If we switch Pat and Luol today, we'd be closer to a top 5 team in the East. The only thing Pat have over Luol today is 3-point shooting.

Kirk pre-extension (and marriage) was borderline All-Star point guard. Of all the comparison this is the one I'm least confident. I still don't see the ability to control tempo from Ayo to be a full-time ball handler. Ayo's game is about speed, getting into the lane, always pressuring by attacking defense off the dribble. Very different from Kirk. I look at Ayo as a guy who can be a better version of Ronnie Brewer, a high level role player on this team.

Dare I say, Coby is looking like Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich rolled into 1 player.

RSP83 wrote:They have the potential to exceed Gordon, Deng, Hinrich. But still way too early to call it.

They might end up being better, but I'd say they have a long way to go. Those three guys got a team to the playoffs while they were all on their rookie contracts and went into the second round by defeating the defending champs, and this team looks a long ways away from being able to do that.

RSP83 wrote:Only Coby who I am confidence to say I'd rather have him than Ben Gordon right now. Gordon was an explosive scorer, super clutch, drew comparison to Andrew Toney. But we shouldn't forgot that he has so many holes in other parts of his game. Hence why he's best used as a sixth man. Coby is a lot more balanced, he's bigger, and probably as talented as a volume scorer.

I'd rather have the Coby of the last 5 games over Gordon, but Coby wasn't as consistently good on his rookie contract as Ben was. Ben won 6MOY his rookie year. That said, I think they're pretty different players. Like you said, Coby's turned into a little bit of a BG / Kirk hybrid. Gordon also flamed out after leaving the Bulls, and Coby seems to have a good mindset. I expect Coby to end up having the better career than Ben, but he hasn't peaked as high as BG did for a whole season. This season is young though.

RSP83 wrote:Pat is sold as Deng with higher ceiling. But he still needs to show he's able to play Deng's floor consistently. If we switch Pat and Luol today, we'd be closer to a top 5 team in the East. The only thing Pat have over Luol today is 3-point shooting.

I'd say Luol's floor has proven to be a lot higher than Pat's, and the big difference is that Luol had an elite motor the day he came into the league, while Pat's is subpar. It's extremely unusual for a low-motor guy to turn into a high motor one, much less eclipse a guy who was one of the best in the league at it.

When it comes to role players, I'd say having a good motor is a really strong advantage, about as big as being more athletic, or being a deadeye shooter, so that makes a pretty big gap between them IMO.

RSP83 wrote:Kirk pre-extension (and marriage) was borderline All-Star point guard. Of all the comparison this is the one I'm least confident. I still don't see the ability to control tempo from Ayo to be a full-time ball handler. Ayo's game is about speed, getting into the lane, always pressuring by attacking defense off the dribble. Very different from Kirk. I look at Ayo as a guy who can be a better version of Ronnie Brewer, a high level role player on this team.

I've always thought early career Kirk was underrated. All-NBA calibre defense at both backcourt positions, and able to run an offense competently, if not spectacularly. He was the original Jrue Holiday.

Defensively they have some similarities, although I think Ayo has the benefit of more physical ability. Kirk got by with a lot of grit, and it caused him to break down later in his career. On offense, Ayo is like a sprinter who plays basketball -- he seems much better in open spaces than closed spaces, which I think limits his upside a bit.

Overall, I'm glad our three young guys are playing well, but I think the trio of Lu/BG/Kirk is underrated for how good they were.