Are we seeing addition through subtraction?

[Indomitable]

Maybe Bull fans deserve this medicore mess. This team will lose 8 of their next 9 games.

[PJSteven22]

Maybe Bull fans deserve this medicore mess. This team will lose 8 of their next 9 games.

I hope so

[Muzbar]

Maybe Bull fans deserve this medicore mess. This team will lose 8 of their next 9 games.

Aaaaaand they'll still be in the play-in.

The Bulls could very well win 3 to 4 of their next 9 games.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

The Zach trade was addition by subtraction. Didn’t matter who we got back, I feel. And we got back dog except I think the new Zach can play a little and is underrated.

Like, Zach produced some good stats this year, he said “the right things” but I think everyone views him as a cancer including front offices. Probably affected his value. That guy just plays losing basketball regardless of the stats.

[WesPeace]

Small sample size to have any impactful meaning to it.. I just think there is a big difference because we are playing games hungry guys, fresh guys who didnt play much last season-s. Guys who wanna show they belong to NBA, willigness, desire, energy.. this will slow down and losses will continue vs better teams.

[BullChit]

I'll start by saying that we are not a great team, but I've seen stretches of good basketball of late that I haven't seen here for a long time. So I am asking myself the question what changed? The answer is a lot.

Not to be a bucket of ice water, but I think this is simply a mirage.

We're 4-9 since trading Zach LaVine. Our wins are against:
The 76ers in absolute freefall and have a worse record than us
The Raptors whom have a worse record than us and are tanking (and it took an impossibly stupid four point play at the end of regulation to force OT)
The Magic whom are really struggling including losing back to back games to the Raptors right before us
The Heat whom now have a tank worthy roster and have been awful since trading Butler (only beating tanking teams)

The best of those teams are 5 games under .500 recently.

Since these trades were made, we've won games at a pace that would be a 25 win season and have only beaten loser teams.

I think the good feelings are largely a mirage due to different players doing different things and going "oh wow, that thing is exciting" or "that player is doing a lot better now", but we had those same stretches at different points, just after 7 years of seeing Zach LaVine turn it on for stretches like a flamethrower but then know he isn't going to do it consistently makes you numb to it when it happens, but when Giddey or Coby now have a heater there is more buzz.

My fear is that the result will be that our FO/Ownership will also buy into this mirage, and we'll double down on continuing to fight for a 9/10 seed.

While I agree I do think the improved play against better teams (even in losses) are just as impressive or just as much of a mirage as the wins against bad teams... Thats where the dreaded "competitive" term can rear its ugly head.

I think fan optimism is just because it's been fun seeing actual energy, hustle and heart out there.

I myself am torn as I am enjoying what I'm seeing but also concerned about actual longevity.

[RSP83]

Just ride this out. So far the returning trade pieces have shown that they're legit solid rotation players (i.e., Collins, Jones, Huerter). They're clearly upgrades over Terry and Phillips.

This team is weird... it has a bunch of mid level talents who can probably be solid role players in playoff teams.

Zach Collins
Tre Jones
Kevin Huerter
Ayo Dosunmu
Lonzo Ball
Jalen Smith
Talen Horton-Tucker
Patrick Williams
Coby White (can start for some teams or sixth-man)
Josh Giddey (can start for some teams)
Matas Buzelis (starter potential)

I still don't know what this team is. Looks like an expansion team tbh.

[Ice Man]

The Zach trade was addition by subtraction. Didn’t matter who we got back, I feel. And we got back dog except I think the new Zach can play a little and is underrated.

Like, Zach produced some good stats this year, he said “the right things” but I think everyone views him as a cancer including front offices. Probably affected his value. That guy just plays losing basketball regardless of the stats.

That seems harsh. For one, I don't recall any direct evidence that Zach was a "cancer." For another, the team went 4-5 without Zach this season before he was traded, with 2 of those wins coming against Toronto and 1 against Charlotte. For a third, the Kings are a respectable 8-6 since he joined them.

[sco]

Just ride this out. So far the returning trade pieces have shown that they're legit solid rotation players (i.e., Collins, Jones, Huerter). They're clearly upgrades over Terry and Phillips.

This team is weird... it has a bunch of mid level talents who can probably be solid role players in playoff teams.

Zach Collins
Tre Jones
Kevin Huerter
Ayo Dosunmu
Lonzo Ball
Jalen Smith
Talen Horton-Tucker
Patrick Williams
Coby White (can start for some teams or sixth-man)
Josh Giddey (can start for some teams)
Matas Buzelis (starter potential)

I still don't know what this team is. Looks like an expansion team tbh.

I think the rest of the season should be about sorting through the rubble of this roster to see who they want to keep. I want to see more Ball, but there really isn't anything to be gained if they plan on keeping him. I wouldn't mind giving PWill some burn when he comes back just to maybe build some chemistry (or at least work some fat off)...also, I'd rather watch him that more of Terry, Phillips or THT at this point (which is really saying something).

I think Billy needs to figure out how to somehow get more out of Matas in the 2nd half of games to carry over into next season.

If we want to keep Tre Jones, maybe they should cut his minutes to drive down his cost. Unless we have a way to be rid of Carter, I don't think it's the best use of our last roster spot.

[dougthonus]

Just ride this out. So far the returning trade pieces have shown that they're legit solid rotation players (i.e., Collins, Jones, Huerter). They're clearly upgrades over Terry and Phillips.

This team is weird... it has a bunch of mid level talents who can probably be solid role players in playoff teams.

Zach Collins
Tre Jones
Kevin Huerter
Ayo Dosunmu
Lonzo Ball
Jalen Smith
Talen Horton-Tucker
Patrick Williams
Coby White (can start for some teams or sixth-man)
Josh Giddey (can start for some teams)
Matas Buzelis (starter potential)

I still don't know what this team is. Looks like an expansion team tbh.

It's a team that has a bunch of role players on role player deals and no stars and no meaningful way to get stars, and that makes them a team capable of fighting for the 9-10 seed as the 20th-22nd best team in the league, ahead of all the teams really tanking and behind all the teams trying to win.

The primary thing that is weird about it is that more or less no one tries to build a team this way except us, so it stands out. That said, I don't think we were necessarily trying to build this team, we got 3 reasonable role players for Zach, but I think we'd have taken anything to get out of his contract, and those guys just happened to be the salaries that fit. Huerter / Collins probably being viewed as bad salaries but have shown a bit of life with a change in scenery.

[sco]

Just ride this out. So far the returning trade pieces have shown that they're legit solid rotation players (i.e., Collins, Jones, Huerter). They're clearly upgrades over Terry and Phillips.

This team is weird... it has a bunch of mid level talents who can probably be solid role players in playoff teams.

Zach Collins
Tre Jones
Kevin Huerter
Ayo Dosunmu
Lonzo Ball
Jalen Smith
Talen Horton-Tucker
Patrick Williams
Coby White (can start for some teams or sixth-man)
Josh Giddey (can start for some teams)
Matas Buzelis (starter potential)

I still don't know what this team is. Looks like an expansion team tbh.

It's a team that has a bunch of role players on role player deals and no stars and no meaningful way to get stars, and that makes them a team capable of fighting for the 9-10 seed as the 20th-22nd best team in the league, ahead of all the teams really tanking and behind all the teams trying to win.

The primary thing that is weird about it is that more or less no one tries to build a team this way except us, so it stands out. That said, I don't think we were necessarily trying to build this team, we got 3 reasonable role players for Zach, but I think we'd have taken anything to get out of his contract, and those guys just happened to be the salaries that fit. Huerter / Collins probably being viewed as bad salaries but have shown a bit of life with a change in scenary.

I think the strategy from here is to see if you can find a way to turn anyone not named Giddey and Buzelis into a couple 1sts, and then go all in on a guy who can be your #1 option who is young enough to get 4 good seasons from him.

[Ice Man]

The primary thing that is weird about it is that more or less no one tries to build a team this way except us, so it stands out.

Setting intent aside, I think our situation is pretty similar to that of the Heat. Miami has a center who has made a couple of All Star games, and is has a low-defense SG that it drafted and nurtured for several years. It so happens that Tyler Herro took a step forwad this year and Coby did not, but their situations were similar.

After that, Miami is a mix of role players and no hopers, same as us. And it has about the same ability, being 16-21 this year when Butler isn't playing -- 35-win pace.

[dougthonus]

The primary thing that is weird about it is that more or less no one tries to build a team this way except us, so it stands out.

Setting intent aside, I think our situation is pretty similar to that of the Heat. Miami has a center who has made a couple of All Star games, and is has a low-defense SG that it drafted and nurtured for several years. It so happens that Tyler Herro took a step forwad this year and Coby did not, but their situations were similar.

After that, Miami is a mix of role players and no hopers, same as us. And it has about the same ability, being 16-21 this year when Butler isn't playing -- 35-win pace.

Well up until the Butler trade, they had two legit all-star players on their team and then had their low defense SG. This was like up until 2 weeks ago.

Also worth noting that Herro has averaged over 20 a game for four straight years and is a career 38%+ 3 point shooter while doing a lot of shot creation. Coby's best year still hasn't eclipsed that mark and he's not such a shooter.

Worth noting part 2, Coby costs half of what Herro does, so it's fine that he's not as good a player. On their contracts, I'd rather have Coby than Herro, no question.

That said, I agree Miami's in no great place either, but I doubt they're going to try to continue to build around mediocrity. That certainly hasn't been their MO in the past. They're in a transitionary phase away from a team with multiple stars that was trying to win and made the finals twice. They've been in that phase for like 2 weeks now and haven't even had a transaction period to adjust after moving Butler yet.

We're heading for our 3rd year in a row as the ~20th best team in the league.

[sco]

The primary thing that is weird about it is that more or less no one tries to build a team this way except us, so it stands out.

Setting intent aside, I think our situation is pretty similar to that of the Heat. Miami has a center who has made a couple of All Star games, and is has a low-defense SG that it drafted and nurtured for several years. It so happens that Tyler Herro took a step forwad this year and Coby did not, but their situations were similar.

After that, Miami is a mix of role players and no hopers, same as us. And it has about the same ability, being 16-21 this year when Butler isn't playing -- 35-win pace.

Well up until the Butler trade, they had two legit all-star players on their team and then had their low defense SG. This was like up until 2 weeks ago.

Also worth noting that Herro has averaged over 20 a game for four straight years and is a career 38%+ 3 point shooter while doing a lot of shot creation. Coby's best year still hasn't eclipsed that mark and he's not such a shooter.

Worth noting part 2, Coby costs half of what Herro does, so it's fine that he's not as good a player. On their contracts, I'd rather have Coby than Herro, no question.

That said, I agree Miami's in no great place either, but I doubt they're going to try to continue to build around mediocrity. That certainly hasn't been their MO in the past. They're in a transitionary phase away from a team with multiple stars that was trying to win and made the finals twice. They've been in that phase for like 2 weeks now and haven't even had a transaction period to adjust after moving Butler yet.

We're heading for our 3rd year in a row as the ~20th best team in the league.

The problem MIA had/has is that they lack a #1 option. Jimmy had been that at one point, but his game slipped...he's still a good defender and glue guy, and that's why he's thriving in GS. Herro, may grow into that role, but he's more of a #2 guy who can't be efficient when defensively focused on. Bam is a very good 2-way glue guy and a #3 option.

And while I say this like "hey you should just go get a #1 option", but we all know there are maybe 10-15 guys around the league who qualify by my definition. So you gotta get lucky in the draft or with a team ready to blow it up.

I get crap for saying that there could be a route that doesn't involve tanking, but IMO, if you can build a team that has the other pieces and compile a stockpile of assets to pounce when a team with one is ready to deal, you can get there. The recent example that comes to mind was when TOR traded for Leonard.

[jnrjr79]

The Zach trade was addition by subtraction. Didn’t matter who we got back, I feel. And we got back dog except I think the new Zach can play a little and is underrated.

Like, Zach produced some good stats this year, he said “the right things” but I think everyone views him as a cancer including front offices. Probably affected his value. That guy just plays losing basketball regardless of the stats.

That seems harsh. For one, I don't recall any direct evidence that Zach was a "cancer." For another, the team went 4-5 without Zach this season before he was traded, with 2 of those wins coming against Toronto and 1 against Charlotte. For a third, the Kings are a respectable 8-6 since he joined them.

It's not just harsh. It's wildly wrong. The Bulls were +9.2 with him on the floor, and Sac is +18.9.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/2099/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

[sco]

The Zach trade was addition by subtraction. Didn’t matter who we got back, I feel. And we got back dog except I think the new Zach can play a little and is underrated.

Like, Zach produced some good stats this year, he said “the right things” but I think everyone views him as a cancer including front offices. Probably affected his value. That guy just plays losing basketball regardless of the stats.

That seems harsh. For one, I don't recall any direct evidence that Zach was a "cancer." For another, the team went 4-5 without Zach this season before he was traded, with 2 of those wins coming against Toronto and 1 against Charlotte. For a third, the Kings are a respectable 8-6 since he joined them.

It's not just harsh. It's wildly wrong. The Bulls were +9.2 with him on the floor, and Sac is +18.9.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/2099/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

Yeah, I was hoping we'd keep Zach because he is a very good player. I think the relationship with AK and/or BD was irreparable and all sides agreed to pursue a trade, and Zach was a good soldier until then, which I give him a lot of credit for.

That said, Zach is very good, but I just don't think he was able to be the #1 option. He just couldn't be counted on the make the right plays during crunch time and struggled with efficiency and turn-overs on double-teams.

Interestingly, Coby is definitely not as skilled offensively (or defensively) as Zach, but I trust him more to make the right plays during crunch time.

[Chi town]

Just ride this out. So far the returning trade pieces have shown that they're legit solid rotation players (i.e., Collins, Jones, Huerter). They're clearly upgrades over Terry and Phillips.

This team is weird... it has a bunch of mid level talents who can probably be solid role players in playoff teams.

Zach Collins
Tre Jones
Kevin Huerter
Ayo Dosunmu
Lonzo Ball
Jalen Smith
Talen Horton-Tucker
Patrick Williams
Coby White (can start for some teams or sixth-man)
Josh Giddey (can start for some teams)
Matas Buzelis (starter potential)

I still don't know what this team is. Looks like an expansion team tbh.

We are a team of 4-8th best players.

Giddey is emerging as a 3rd BP.
Maybe Buz becomes a 2 or 3 BP.

Don’t know how we get our 1.

This is why AK says 9-10 good players.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

The Zach trade was addition by subtraction. Didn’t matter who we got back, I feel. And we got back dog except I think the new Zach can play a little and is underrated.

Like, Zach produced some good stats this year, he said “the right things” but I think everyone views him as a cancer including front offices. Probably affected his value. That guy just plays losing basketball regardless of the stats.

That seems harsh. For one, I don't recall any direct evidence that Zach was a "cancer." For another, the team went 4-5 without Zach this season before he was traded, with 2 of those wins coming against Toronto and 1 against Charlotte. For a third, the Kings are a respectable 8-6 since he joined them.

it's a little harsh. but I think fair. he's had an attitude problem for years and he's been the "leader" of what amounts to, in my opinion, the worst era of bulls basketball ever. although it's not super logical because I'd take Jimmy back on this team in 2 seconds and he's always a mess. when jimmy does it it's romantic or punk rock though or something. he's also better at basketball than zach and his play tends to result in wins/championship runs.

it's like with Zach, you never actually wanted him making a decision with the ball -- particularly when the game is on the line -- but the ball had to be in his hands for some reason and it always seems like he just makes the wrong decision unless the decision is to pull up and shoot. he's good at that but occasionally you want to pass the ball and probably not throw it into the stands or dribble it off your foot or whatever.

[sco]

The Zach trade was addition by subtraction. Didn’t matter who we got back, I feel. And we got back dog except I think the new Zach can play a little and is underrated.

Like, Zach produced some good stats this year, he said “the right things” but I think everyone views him as a cancer including front offices. Probably affected his value. That guy just plays losing basketball regardless of the stats.

That seems harsh. For one, I don't recall any direct evidence that Zach was a "cancer." For another, the team went 4-5 without Zach this season before he was traded, with 2 of those wins coming against Toronto and 1 against Charlotte. For a third, the Kings are a respectable 8-6 since he joined them.

it's a little harsh. but I think fair. he's had an attitude problem for years and he's been the "leader" of what amounts to, in my opinion, the worst era of bulls basketball ever. although it's not super logical because I'd take Jimmy back on this team in 2 seconds and he's always a mess. when jimmy does it it's romantic or punk rock though or something. he's also better at basketball than zach and his play tends to result in wins/championship runs.

it's like with Zach, you never actually wanted him making a decision with the ball -- particularly when the game is on the line -- but the ball had to be in his hands for some reason and it always seems like he just makes the wrong decision unless the decision is to pull up and shoot. he's good at that but occasionally you want to pass the ball and probably not throw it into the stands or dribble it off your foot or whatever.

This!

He is best suited to be a catch-and-shoot 2nd option, but I think he never wanted to "settle" for that role. He had in his head that he is a first option guy, but he just lacks the ability to be that guy (heck 95% of the NBA lacks that ability).

[Ice Man]

Yeah, I'm not buying. I remember Kevin McHale saying that Jimmy Butler couldn't be the #2 player on a team because of his ego. Then Jimmy went to Philly, played 2nd fiddle to Joel and Embiid was happy with him, was on the Olympics as a role player without complaint, and now is Steph's Robin. My point being that we don't know from the outside what Zach is thinking. Whatever we think is most likely projection -- if we don't much care for a player, then that's how we talk about him. (McHale detests Butler, always has. I remember him saying that getting Jimmy "doesn't move the needle" for a contending team.)