Vuc vs. Collins vs. Smith who should start?

[League Circles]

Vuc is pretty good at being the last guy down the court and taking a wide open three from the top of the arc. That's as nice of a thing as I can say about him. A truly weak competitor. Embarrassing unwillingness to contest shots.

Literally had a nice block last game

A broken clock is right twice a day

[2weekswithpay]

If they target Vuc repeatedly like LA was doing, you got to pull him out.

No you have to stop switching.

We didn't switch for most of the game. They couldn't guard the PNR, and switching was a last resort.

[League Circles]

I don't particularly care who starts for the rest of this season. But IMO, Smith is the youngest, the best, and is on the best contract, so for me unless we make a trade or maybe if we draft Maluach or sign an unexpected FA with the MLE (which I can't really see), I want Smith starting next year for sure. Collins is roughly as good as him, but older, on a worse deal, and definitely less versatile defensively, where I think Smith is underrated.

Collins is a noticeably better athlete than Smith. And not exactly old at 27.

Maybe we've been watching different teams. IMO Smith is quote a good athlete at the 5. Perhaps the best we've had since Noah. Collins is solid though, well rounded.

[sco]

I respect that we can all watch the same thing and see totally different things (clearly Billy and I do).

IMO, Vuc has been the worst defensive starting C in the NBA for the past 2+ seasons. The only reason he hasn't been targeted more by opponents is that we've had other bad players to target as well. His value was non-negative to start the season because we still were playing somewhat the old way, but adding a bunch of 3pt shots and he was making them at a good clip, which added spacing on the offense. Since the Giddey/Coby show began, his value has diminished vs. Collins and Smith who provide a big target for Giddey that actually runs the floor in transition.

Collins is stronger/longer/smarter and better offensive rebounder, coming down with more contested rebounds. Those advantages also have him position himself better as a dump-off target on Giddey drives. When Vuc is in there, Giddey often gets stopped and has to pass backwards.

Smith is the most athletic of the 3 and the best defender, able to switch onto smaller guys, come up with impressive blocks and steals the other guys can't. His 3pt shot is streaky buy has potential to become enough of an outside threat to keep defenses honest. He's a little undersized and may not be able to play 30 mpg at C every night, but it is flat-out crazy that he isn't playing any PF, especially alongside Vuc because he is definitely better than Pwill and Phillips.

[ChettheJet]

I would want to start Collins, other teams play small enough off the bench to use Smith much more. You wish Vucevic played the big beefier centers better than the other 2 but it really isn't the case and when other teams go small for whatever reason Vuc doesn't get in the post to take advantage of smaller defenders.

News Flash;;; the Bulls need to trade Vucevic during the summer, if you sit a veteran like him you can't explain enough to another team how he's still a great guy to start for them but YOU sat him out to end the season where you were trying to advance in the play in. How many people kept harping that in order to trade Lavine they needed to play him to build up his trade value? How many people who want to trade PWill say that they need to play him to rebuild his trade value? Yeah a whole lot of you, well it works the same way, you can't diminish Vuc's value by sitting him out.

[Guru]

Vuc is pretty good at being the last guy down the court and taking a wide open three from the top of the arc. That's as nice of a thing as I can say about him. A truly weak competitor. Embarrassing unwillingness to contest shots.

Literally had a nice block last game

A broken clock is right twice a day

Thats good because he had 2 blocks and no one else had any

[Guru]

You all have to stop making these extremely unhealthy threads and convos.

It's unhealthy I can tell you that as a clinician.

Try being a fan of Patrick Williams, my little snow flake.

I am a fan, he hit a huge three last night.

[Guru]

Can you imagine in the Bulls Championship eras if there were 100 threads on why Craig Hodges wasn't perfect? The shortcomings of Jud Buechler.

I care about positivity and the people in here. I spend a lot of time with them. We are coming off an incredibly fun win and people are like....but it won't matter, but Vuc still sucks, but Pwill didn't celebrate how I wanted.....and then they are calling me a snowflake for pointing out how this whining is so unbelievably negative individually and for the community.

[RastaBull]

I would start with the center that's been starting all the games during this 9-2 stretch. Maybe just me. Sarcasm aside, I get why there is a debate about Vuc. I think the pendulum for many has swung to a very extreme and gets to be unreasonable (just my opinion).

Vuc is not trash, he is not worthless, he is not incapable of being a winning and IMPORTANT piece of a team ... even of THIS CURRENT 2025 PLAY IN TEAM.

I appreciate him for many on and off court things he brings to this now very young team.

(1) He's been a consummate professional across 5 years now. Never a distraction or giving air that he is frustrated/putting himself over the team. He plays every freaking game. He's a great veteran for veteran-sake to have in the locker room. On top of that, he's been with a lot of these young guys their entire tenure (White/Ayo/Coby/Dalen). This is more assumption/hope, but it feels like he's built a good relation with these youngins and been through the ups and downs, the closed door meetings, etc.

(2) He is a skilled big man. He has a soft touch and is quite reliable in the post in juxtaposition to league average. This year is quite honestly one of his best to date. He's shooting 59% on 2-point attempts (prior to coming to Bulls he'd never been over 52.7% from 2-point). He's 57% on 3-10ft (second best of career) and 50% 10-16ft (best of career).

(3) He's also no slouch in stretching the floor. This year 40% ... while taking a career high 31% of his shots from behind the arc. Where we are all impressed by Coby and Giddey driving to basket ... having a big so comfortable stretching floor is a HUGE asset on offense

(4) Not to mention everyone knows in their heart he is pretty far above average as a passing big man. C'MON, look at that assist to Pat last night ... that's not a typical play a big man can make. Not to mention, the REASON LeBron cheated to Vuc and left Pat, is because Vuc is a legit threat to take those exact shots (and you can bet Reddick said during timeout ... reminding Lakers about each personnel). I don't know if LeBron would have tried to crash on Collins or Smith (although both are fine too), and he def wouldn't have crashed on more than half the leagues big men.

This offense looks very comfortable with Vuc out there, which is awesome, and which is something we never really saw before. So I'd say he is offensively a great fit with our squad. Which is exactly why I'd WANT to start him

He is a horrible defensive fit for the team, which is why Bulls need to balance the pro-con more for end of game and use Collins/Smith in more situations.

[MrSparkle]

I’m starting to think Bulls stand pat with this C rotation. Maybe Vuc settles down into a lower minute starter. When he’s making shots and engaged, he’s not worse than your average C (still an easy 2P on the other end). Collins should average more MPG, but his best self isn’t consistent.

I don’t see us drafting in the Malauch/Queen range (think they go 7-10), and tbh AK doesn’t seem interested in defensive Cs. Queen would be more his type, albeit undersized/sketchy D. If anything Wolf has the size and offense to follow suit (thinking Mo Wagner meets Plumlee).

Either way, looking like the 10-14 rookie next year probably won’t play a whole lot next year. More a project. So… Back to the Egor Denim?

[League Circles]

Literally had a nice block last game

A broken clock is right twice a day

Thats good because he had 2 blocks and no one else had any

I mean, the fact that he gets some blocks is almost worse, because there are at least 5 layups a game that he absolutely could, and should, at least get a good hand up to contest, that he literally just lets happen right in his face without even raising his hands, olé style. Can't wait to just get the ball back after the made basket. It's infuriating, because as you suggest, when he tries, it's at least sometimes successful. It really is an effort /competitiveness issue. Giddey is slow like him but because he's much more competitive and intense, actually plays somewhat solid D now much of the time.

[League Circles]

You all have to stop making these extremely unhealthy threads and convos.

It's unhealthy I can tell you that as a clinician.

Try being a fan of Patrick Williams, my little snow flake.

I am a fan, he hit a huge three last night.

Duck is basically joking with you, cause he (and you and me and maybe no one else?) is a Patrick fan, and thus he's been hardened by the (somewhat warranted) intense anti-Patrick sentiment on the board.

But winning can cure much of this.

The center issue IMO is more about next year and long term. Not to detract from the current awesome excitement. It's a separate side issue that's interesting to think about, at least for me.

[League Circles]

I'd say all three options are probably pretty similar with slightly different things that annoy you about each of them.

I think Collins is probably the guy that fits this team the best, he has a much higher motor than Vuc and a better basketball IQ than Smith, and requires the least shots of the three guys, which probably best fits him in with the rest of the team. Smith probably fits the team the second most in terms of at least hustling and getting up and down the floor. Vuc is the most skilled of the three, but with a play style that hurts us the most defensively and in terms of speed.

Bulls likely aren't committed to any of these guys for any length of time, so no real reason to think long term with any of them.

I don't think there's a reason to try to pump up Vuc's trade value. His contract length and value is more or less the same as Collins (whom is slightly cheaper). If you are trading one of our centers for their on court value rather than their contract, then Collins is just as likely (perhaps more) to attract interest as Vuc.

Collins could still be here after next season. Vuc definitely won’t be here after next season.

Don't jinx us regarding Vuc on an AK-special extension in 26-27 and beyond!

[dougthonus]

Collins could still be here after next season. Vuc definitely won’t be here after next season.

Which is probably greater reason to invest in Collins over Vuc which would be my desired state anyway (not saying you're disagreeing in this assessment).

[sco]

Can you imagine in the Bulls Championship eras if there were 100 threads on why Craig Hodges wasn't perfect? The shortcomings of Jud Buechler.

I care about positivity and the people in here. I spend a lot of time with them. We are coming off an incredibly fun win and people are like....but it won't matter, but Vuc still sucks, but Pwill didn't celebrate how I wanted.....and then they are calling me a snowflake for pointing out how this whining is so unbelievably negative individually and for the community.

Guru, you're points are very appreciated, and I like that people here, including you, are sticking up for your guy. We're fans (short for fanatics...i.e. emotionally charged and not always rational).

Contrary to your opinion, while it is nice to be able to talk about good things, this site would die if all we had has a bunch on people saying "yeah, what he said" and "I enjoy the artfulness of your prose". Disagreement, if done respectfully, which we do pretty darn well here...shout out to our mods!, is fun. I enjoy the verbal sparring with this group because most of them are smarter than me and I learn something.

At the end of the day, I hope you can learn to appreciate the joy of disagreement among passionate people.

Keep on cheering for Vuc! Just know I will challenge you.

[nomorezorro]

vuc should start because there are only 11 games left in the season and whatever benefit you may get in on-court play from benching him is not worth risking affecting his trade value by making him The Guy Who Got Benched On A Sub-.500 Team

[sco]

vuc should start because there are only 11 games left in the season and whatever benefit you may get in on-court play from benching him is not worth risking affecting his trade value by making him The Guy Who Got Benched On A Sub-.500 Team

I was with you but then last season happened without a Vuc trade afterward, and then this season happened without a Vuc trade at the deadline. There is no "pump and dump" value to be found with Vuc. IMO, there will be zero, ZERO interest in Vuc this offseason. Not that there are no teams that would take him, but there are no teams that would take him that have the contracts/capspace to take on his deal. Now, could we use the POR pick to deal him, sure, should/will we? NO.

That said, there is zero chance that Billy takes him out of the starting line-up this season because Billy, to our collective detriment, sticks with his vets start to finish almost religiously. I say almost because I was amazed that Billy had the balls to sit PWill after he turned into one of the worst players in the NBA, funny thing is that Pat has done a bit better since the benching.

I will say that despite my STRONG wanting to bench Vuc, having him play off the bench might be ok. When he gets matched against scrubs, his offense becomes more efficient and his lack of defense becomes less problematic. Well, maybe next season.

[DuckIII]

vuc should start because there are only 11 games left in the season and whatever benefit you may get in on-court play from benching him is not worth risking affecting his trade value by making him The Guy Who Got Benched On A Sub-.500 Team

I agree. Play him the rest of the season. No doubt. Even in the playoffs.

[MrSparkle]

Zach Collins missed about 3 entire seasons in his early career (19-22), and he’s only 27yo, so there’s an intriguing angle to maybe catching the best stretch of his career on a cheaper extension. Still the fact is that spending high on Cs (whether it’s lotto or FA or costly trades) is often the worst value. Getting them as freebies is the ticket (J. Allen, Gafford, C’s with Porzingis and Horford rd. 2, Bucks Lopez, etc.). Collins is not on that level though.

[Guru]

vuc should start because there are only 11 games left in the season and whatever benefit you may get in on-court play from benching him is not worth risking affecting his trade value by making him The Guy Who Got Benched On A Sub-.500 Team

I was with you but then last season happened without a Vuc trade afterward, and then this season happened without a Vuc trade at the deadline. There is no "pump and dump" value to be found with Vuc. IMO, there will be zero, ZERO interest in Vuc this offseason. Not that there are no teams that would take him, but there are no teams that would take him that have the contracts/capspace to take on his deal. Now, could we use the POR pick to deal him, sure, should/will we? NO.

That said, there is zero chance that Billy takes him out of the starting line-up this season because Billy, to our collective detriment, sticks with his vets start to finish almost religiously. I say almost because I was amazed that Billy had the balls to sit PWill after he turned into one of the worst players in the NBA, funny thing is that Pat has done a bit better since the benching.

I will say that despite my STRONG wanting to bench Vuc, having him play off the bench might be ok. When he gets matched against scrubs, his offense becomes more efficient and his lack of defense becomes less problematic. Well, maybe next season.

There was some cryptic reporting by people who know that Vuc wasn't traded because there was overwhelming logic that the market would be better this offseason. I find this dubious, but I think it came from Crowley or one of the grumpy guys that you would never think would say that.

My assumption is that the only trades for Vuc that were offered took on bad money that we refused to take on. At this point what can we even hope for. He's actually not a terrible fit for a contending team with a defensive 4....but who is that? Memphis?