Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

[dougthonus]

You really think he is the worst of the bunch excluding Poole?

I don't know, I'd take Giddey over all of them, besides perhaps Suggs, and even that would be a toss up for me, because just as Giddey's defense is lacking, Suggs is vastly inconsistent as an offensively player. But I sure as hell take him over, Green (he is a chucker that doesn't play defense and has low basketball IQ), CJ (on the older end), Poole (need I say more), Quickley, perhaps a toss up, but another one-side of the court player, but unlike isn't great on that end, unlike Suggs who is an All-NBA defensive player.

You're not wrong though, he is a tricky player to evaluate, because there simply aren't that many comparable to him as far as NBA skillset goes, and he is one of those players that either excel or flounder based on the type of players around him and he definitely is suited to a specific style of play.

That said, I'm totally okay with him on a 30 million or thereabouts, type of contract considering the current climate of contracts. Mid-30's or higher, than I may start having an issue. But he has basically improved every single season, and he has a pretty damn high basketball IQ, and I see him continuing to get better.

I think there is a very real risk (and I'd say more likely than not) that Giddey is the Vuc of PGs. A guy who can fill a box score but can't really help you win, because he won't fit in with other good players due to his own deficiencies. He can pile in a lot of stats on a team that doesn't have anyone better to do it, but once you have someone better to do it, he can't fit in a useful role.

He's young enough this might not be true, if he can fix the shooting it would go a long, long way. His percentage was way up this year, but it doesn't really reflect release speed, gravity, or how defenses played him. That said, still a very good sign objectively even if I'm not convinced yet.

[sco]

You really think he is the worst of the bunch excluding Poole?

I don't know, I'd take Giddey over all of them, besides perhaps Suggs, and even that would be a toss up for me, because just as Giddey's defense is lacking, Suggs is vastly inconsistent as an offensively player. But I sure as hell take him over, Green (he is a chucker that doesn't play defense and has low basketball IQ), CJ (on the older end), Poole (need I say more), Quickley, perhaps a toss up, but another one-side of the court player, but unlike isn't great on that end, unlike Suggs who is an All-NBA defensive player.

You're not wrong though, he is a tricky player to evaluate, because there simply aren't that many comparable to him as far as NBA skillset goes, and he is one of those players that either excel or flounder based on the type of players around him and he definitely is suited to a specific style of play.

That said, I'm totally okay with him on a 30 million or thereabouts, type of contract considering the current climate of contracts. Mid-30's or higher, than I may start having an issue. But he has basically improved every single season, and he has a pretty damn high basketball IQ, and I see him continuing to get better.

I think there is a very real risk (and I'd say more likely than not) that Giddey is the Vuc of PGs. A guy who can fill a box score but can't really help you win, because he won't fit in with other good players due to his own deficiencies. He can pile in a lot of stats on a team that doesn't have anyone better to do it, but once you have someone better to do it, he can't fit in a useful role.

He's young enough this might not be true, if he can fix the shooting it would go a long, long way. His percentage was way up this year, but it doesn't really reflect release speed, gravity, or how defenses played him. That said, still a very good sign objectively even if I'm not convinced yet.

Interesting analogy with Vuc. I'll say it this way, how bad would we feel if we landed a 22 year old Vuc? I'm no Vuc fan, but this team could have overcome his deficiencies and played to his strengths and won a lot more. Really, the FO failed at finding an elite defender at PF to put next to him. We saw that pre-Ball injury team with extra defense doing well. My point is that good GM's build around the strengths of their best players. With Giddey, we need a great rim running/defensive C, a POA defender and secondary ball handler (which IMO Ball or Jones could be), a true #1 option player (that I fantasize Matas becoming), and another 2-way 3-D player to be able to become a balanced team.

[Jcool0]

With Giddey, we need a great rim running/defensive C, a POA defender and secondary ball handler (which IMO Ball or Jones could be), a true #1 option player (that I fantasize Matas becoming), and another 2-way 3-D player to be able to become a balanced team.

Bulls would be smart to trade up for Khaman Maluach if he gets passed 6th. But i seriously doubt AK would make a bold draft day trade that didn't involve established players coming to Chicago.

[Red Larrivee]

I think there is a very real risk (and I'd say more likely than not) that Giddey is the Vuc of PGs. A guy who can fill a box score but can't really help you win, because he won't fit in with other good players due to his own deficiencies. He can pile in a lot of stats on a team that doesn't have anyone better to do it, but once you have someone better to do it, he can't fit in a useful role.

He's young enough this might not be true, if he can fix the shooting it would go a long, long way. His percentage was way up this year, but it doesn't really reflect release speed, gravity, or how defenses played him. That said, still a very good sign objectively even if I'm not convinced yet.

This was my big concern when we traded for him initially, on top of the fact that you have to pay him a year later. You don't get much time to see how he fits as the team (hopefully) evolves for multiple years.

That said, it's encouraging that Giddey played well with White during the Bulls hot streak. He also had a positive impact with other players on the floor and his catch/shoot three was very good. Giddey can stat pad pretty easily, but he had a genuine impact on winning post-ASB. I think that's the most you can ask for with such a flawed team.

[dougthonus]

Interesting analogy with Vuc. I'll say it this way, how bad would we feel if we landed a 22 year old Vuc? I'm no Vuc fan, but this team could have overcome his deficiencies and played to his strengths and won a lot more. Really, the FO failed at finding an elite defender at PF to put next to him. We saw that pre-Ball injury team with extra defense doing well. My point is that good GM's build around the strengths of their best players. With Giddey, we need a great rim running/defensive C, a POA defender and secondary ball handler (which IMO Ball or Jones could be), a true #1 option player (that I fantasize Matas becoming), and another 2-way 3-D player to be able to become a balanced team.

That's the thing with Vuc, you'd feel good about landing him, and you'd think this could lead somewhere, but it wouldn't because once you had a good offensive player, every possession run through Vuc would be awful, and he'd destroy your defense, and trying to find a rim protecting elite PF is nearly impossible, but then finding one that's also a good offensive player is even harder, then you'd still have to figure out who Vuc can guard, because now he's out on the perimeter where he's going to get absolutely toasted.

Giddey has a lot of the same features. He is weak in too important of places in combination meaning you need four different players whom also can shoot and also defend next to him, even at positions where that is hard to find, and then one of those also needs to be an elite offensive creator, and then once you have all that what is Giddey really giving you?

At any rate, it may not go that way, I'm not trying to be super binary about it, but I'd bet against Giddey being able to fit into a really good team as a high value player. Obviously none of these arguments are new, we've been debating about it all year. I'm sure the Bulls will look to keep Giddey, but I've never really been less excited about the potential of this team to ever win a playoff series than I have under AK.

[sco]

Interesting analogy with Vuc. I'll say it this way, how bad would we feel if we landed a 22 year old Vuc? I'm no Vuc fan, but this team could have overcome his deficiencies and played to his strengths and won a lot more. Really, the FO failed at finding an elite defender at PF to put next to him. We saw that pre-Ball injury team with extra defense doing well. My point is that good GM's build around the strengths of their best players. With Giddey, we need a great rim running/defensive C, a POA defender and secondary ball handler (which IMO Ball or Jones could be), a true #1 option player (that I fantasize Matas becoming), and another 2-way 3-D player to be able to become a balanced team.

That's the thing with Vuc, you'd feel good about landing him, and you'd think this could lead somewhere, but it wouldn't because once you had a good offensive player, every possession run through Vuc would be awful, and he'd destroy your defense, and trying to find a rim protecting elite PF is nearly impossible, but then finding one that's also a good offensive player is even harder, then you'd still have to figure out who Vuc can guard, because now he's out on the perimeter where he's going to get absolutely toasted.

Giddey has a lot of the same features. He is weak in too important of places in combination meaning you need four different players whom also can shoot and also defend next to him, even at positions where that is hard to find, and then one of those also needs to be an elite offensive creator, and then once you have all that what is Giddey really giving you?

At any rate, it may not go that way, I'm not trying to be super binary about it, but I'd bet against Giddey being able to fit into a really good team as a high value player. Obviously none of these arguments are new, we've been debating about it all year. I'm sure the Bulls will look to keep Giddey, but I've never really been less excited about the potential of this team to ever win a playoff series than I have under AK.

Fair points, the hard part is that it will really depend on our team finding a #1 option and what that guy can do. Also, it is easy to fall back on that "it is easy to expose Giddey because he can't shoot 3's or defend" notion. I want to give the kid credit for his meaningful improvement here in both areas. I think he can improve on both in the future to the point where he is average to above average and not a liability.

[dougthonus]

Fair points, the hard part is that it will really depend on our team finding a #1 option and what that guy can do. Also, it is easy to fall back on that "it is easy to expose Giddey because he can't shoot 3's or defend" notion. I want to give the kid credit for his meaningful improvement here in both areas. I think he can improve on both in the future to the point where he is average to above average and not a liability.

It's definitely in the range of reasonable / possible outcomes that he makes enough improvement as a shooter / defender for what I said to not be true. I just wouldn't bet on it being the likely outcome.

I think generally, he's a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer, and I think I would generally always avoid those types of players as they prevent you from getting good draft picks and also aren't part of contenders.

[League Circles]

Fair points, the hard part is that it will really depend on our team finding a #1 option and what that guy can do. Also, it is easy to fall back on that "it is easy to expose Giddey because he can't shoot 3's or defend" notion. I want to give the kid credit for his meaningful improvement here in both areas. I think he can improve on both in the future to the point where he is average to above average and not a liability.

It's definitely in the range of reasonable / possible outcomes that he makes enough improvement as a shooter / defender for what I said to not be true. I just wouldn't bet on it being the likely outcome.

I think generally, he's a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer, and I think I would generally always avoid those types of players as they prevent you from getting good draft picks and also aren't part of contenders.

I'm roughly with you on the Giddey issue. What are you thinking we should do regarding contract? IMO, we should offer him (before FA starts) the largest contract that we could live with him on as a prominent 6th man long term. That way, if what we suspect happens, he can still be a valuable 20-25 mpg guy and not kill you long term. I don't know what that means dollar wise - maybe $20 mil/year? I understand he probably wouldn't accept this before FA starts, but he might have to after nobody offers him much. At 20 mil/year, he has the potential to be a good value contract. It just sucks that we already have Patrick making 18 mil as a bench guy.

This is why I wanted to trade Giddey before the deadline. I knew he might blow up numbers wise and that it would be something of a mirage for us. He strikes me as a potentially great regular season player who loses in the first round annually when other teams focus on the straightforward ways to neutralize him.

[jnrjr79]

Fair points, the hard part is that it will really depend on our team finding a #1 option and what that guy can do. Also, it is easy to fall back on that "it is easy to expose Giddey because he can't shoot 3's or defend" notion. I want to give the kid credit for his meaningful improvement here in both areas. I think he can improve on both in the future to the point where he is average to above average and not a liability.

It's definitely in the range of reasonable / possible outcomes that he makes enough improvement as a shooter / defender for what I said to not be true. I just wouldn't bet on it being the likely outcome.

I think generally, he's a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer, and I think I would generally always avoid those types of players as they prevent you from getting good draft picks and also aren't part of contenders.

I'm roughly with you on the Giddey issue. What are you thinking we should do regarding contract? IMO, we should offer him (before FA starts) the largest contract that we could live with him on as a prominent 6th man long term. That way, if what we suspect happens, he can still be a valuable 20-25 mpg guy and not kill you long term. I don't know what that means dollar wise - maybe $20 mil/year? I understand he probably wouldn't accept this before FA starts, but he might have to after nobody offers him much. At 20 mil/year, he has the potential to be a good value contract. It just sucks that we already have Patrick making 18 mil as a bench guy.

This is why I wanted to trade Giddey before the deadline. I knew he might blow up numbers wise and that it would be something of a mirage for us. He strikes me as a potentially great regular season player who loses in the first round annually when other teams focus on the straightforward ways to neutralize him.

I do not think this is viable. Giddey, if he is anything like he played post-Zach trade, is a starter in the league, and relegating him to the bench is just asking for problems, particularly because he did not take that well in OKC. If you want to sign Giddey, it's because you plan to start him or think you're going to sign him to a deal that you can trade for good stuff.

I imagine Giddey turns down $20M. That could be ok - you might be able to find a S&T partner, but you risk an offer sheet from Brooklyn and letting him walk.

I'd probably offer him something like $25-30M and see if he bites without testing free agency. It's definitely dicey - he's got some obvious limitations and you don't know whether his hot second half of the season is sustainable. He's worth more than $30M if it is, but a guy going on an extreme heater before his contract offseason is definitely dangerous territory.

[kodo]

You really think he is the worst of the bunch excluding Poole?

I don't know, I'd take Giddey over all of them, besides perhaps Suggs, and even that would be a toss up for me, because just as Giddey's defense is lacking, Suggs is vastly inconsistent as an offensively player. But I sure as hell take him over, Green (he is a chucker that doesn't play defense and has low basketball IQ), CJ (on the older end), Poole (need I say more), Quickley, perhaps a toss up, but another one-side of the court player, but unlike isn't great on that end, unlike Suggs who is an All-NBA defensive player.

You're not wrong though, he is a tricky player to evaluate, because there simply aren't that many comparable to him as far as NBA skillset goes, and he is one of those players that either excel or flounder based on the type of players around him and he definitely is suited to a specific style of play.

That said, I'm totally okay with him on a 30 million or thereabouts, type of contract considering the current climate of contracts. Mid-30's or higher, than I may start having an issue. But he has basically improved every single season, and he has a pretty damn high basketball IQ, and I see him continuing to get better.

I think there is a very real risk (and I'd say more likely than not) that Giddey is the Vuc of PGs. A guy who can fill a box score but can't really help you win, because he won't fit in with other good players due to his own deficiencies. He can pile in a lot of stats on a team that doesn't have anyone better to do it, but once you have someone better to do it, he can't fit in a useful role.

He's young enough this might not be true, if he can fix the shooting it would go a long, long way. His percentage was way up this year, but it doesn't really reflect release speed, gravity, or how defenses played him. That said, still a very good sign objectively even if I'm not convinced yet.

Interesting analogy with Vuc. I'll say it this way, how bad would we feel if we landed a 22 year old Vuc? I'm no Vuc fan, but this team could have overcome his deficiencies and played to his strengths and won a lot more. Really, the FO failed at finding an elite defender at PF to put next to him. We saw that pre-Ball injury team with extra defense doing well. My point is that good GM's build around the strengths of their best players. With Giddey, we need a great rim running/defensive C, a POA defender and secondary ball handler (which IMO Ball or Jones could be), a true #1 option player (that I fantasize Matas becoming), and another 2-way 3-D player to be able to become a balanced team.

Vuc, IMO, is the 180 the opposite case of Giddey. Vuc is a case of a player with positive/negatives, but his negatives are critical to his role of C while his positives are usually done better by other positions. Protecting the paint / blocking shots / finishing lob dunks are the critical roles of a C. Taking a lot of 3 point jumpers and hanging out on the perimeter are done better by guards/wings. This is why Davis Bertrans was never a great C despite shooting 40% from 3 career, 43% from his best season.

Giddey as a PG post trade was the 3rd leading assist generator in the league after Haliburton/Young and ahead of Joker. At 22 he's shown immense raw talent for the critical skill of his position. He's also shown winning impact while he's on the floor which is what you also want out of a PG, the other high assist PGs have been very mixed on impact.

Haliburton +12.4
Young +0.9
Giddey +10.1
Joker +7.9
Ball -8.9
Harden +7.8
Cunningham +4.9

Vuc was always a problem for both ORL & CHI because it creates a hole where nobody is protecting the rim, blocking shots, deterring slashes away from the basket on defense and on offense nobody is a threat in the dunker's spot, running the floor for dunks in transition, or finishing lobs. And we can't fill those roles because you can't play two Centers defensively or offensively.

The Vucevic of PGs would be someone like earlier Kris Dunn. Elite on defense (still is today) but terrible at the critical roles for a PG, which is creating offense both by scoring for himself and creating scoring plays for others. He finally found a starting job in the NBA by getting on a team where all the roles for the PG ended up being handled by a wing (Harden).

[sco]

It's definitely in the range of reasonable / possible outcomes that he makes enough improvement as a shooter / defender for what I said to not be true. I just wouldn't bet on it being the likely outcome.

I think generally, he's a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer, and I think I would generally always avoid those types of players as they prevent you from getting good draft picks and also aren't part of contenders.

I'm roughly with you on the Giddey issue. What are you thinking we should do regarding contract? IMO, we should offer him (before FA starts) the largest contract that we could live with him on as a prominent 6th man long term. That way, if what we suspect happens, he can still be a valuable 20-25 mpg guy and not kill you long term. I don't know what that means dollar wise - maybe $20 mil/year? I understand he probably wouldn't accept this before FA starts, but he might have to after nobody offers him much. At 20 mil/year, he has the potential to be a good value contract. It just sucks that we already have Patrick making 18 mil as a bench guy.

This is why I wanted to trade Giddey before the deadline. I knew he might blow up numbers wise and that it would be something of a mirage for us. He strikes me as a potentially great regular season player who loses in the first round annually when other teams focus on the straightforward ways to neutralize him.

I do not think this is viable. Giddey, if he is anything like he played post-Zach trade, is a starter in the league, and relegating him to the bench is just asking for problems, particularly because he did not take that well in OKC. If you want to sign Giddey, it's because you plan to start him or think you're going to sign him to a deal that you can trade for good stuff.

I imagine Giddey turns down $20M. That could be ok - you might be able to find a S&T partner, but you risk an offer sheet from Brooklyn and letting him walk.

I'd probably offer him something like $25-30M and see if he bites without testing free agency. It's definitely dicey - he's got some obvious limitations and you don't know whether his hot second half of the season is sustainable. He's worth more than $30M if it is, but a guy going on an extreme heater before his contract offseason is definitely dangerous territory.

IMO there is a market of 2 teams for Giddey, us and (potentially) BKN (plus Giddey could just accept the QO). I'm not saying we shouldn't match whatever BKN puts on the table, we should, all the way up to his $38M MAX. The key is how to play it to a) deter BKN from even bidding (because they know we'll match, and they don't want to have a losing bid tied up during the our match waiting period (because of the opportunity cost of potentially not being able to pursue others), and b) make Giddey feel wanted/respected so that he doesn't just take the QO. Along with the QO, I'd put a $25M offer out there and tell him we'll match any offer. Alternatively, we could put a shorter deal like a 3/$90 out there with the 3rd year TO that gets him better money but shortens his time to UFA status and our time to get off the risk.

[dougthonus]

I'm roughly with you on the Giddey issue. What are you thinking we should do regarding contract? IMO, we should offer him (before FA starts) the largest contract that we could live with him on as a prominent 6th man long term. That way, if what we suspect happens, he can still be a valuable 20-25 mpg guy and not kill you long term. I don't know what that means dollar wise - maybe $20 mil/year? I understand he probably wouldn't accept this before FA starts, but he might have to after nobody offers him much. At 20 mil/year, he has the potential to be a good value contract. It just sucks that we already have Patrick making 18 mil as a bench guy.

This is why I wanted to trade Giddey before the deadline. I knew he might blow up numbers wise and that it would be something of a mirage for us. He strikes me as a potentially great regular season player who loses in the first round annually when other teams focus on the straightforward ways to neutralize him.

I think 25M a year is where my line on Giddey is.

[dougthonus]

IMO there is a market of 2 teams for Giddey, us and (potentially) BKN (plus Giddey could just accept the QO). I'm not saying we shouldn't match whatever BKN puts on the table, we should, all the way up to his $38M MAX. The key is how to play it to a) deter BKN from even bidding (because they know we'll match, and they don't want to have a losing bid tied up during the our match waiting period (because of the opportunity cost of potentially not being able to pursue others), and b) make Giddey feel wanted/respected so that he doesn't just take the QO. Along with the QO, I'd put a $25M offer out there and tell him we'll match any offer. Alternatively, we could put a shorter deal like a 3/$90 out there with the 3rd year TO that gets him better money but shortens his time to UFA status and our time to get off the risk.

Man, I sure as hell wouldn't match a 38M max deal on Giddey. Why would you do that?

[dougthonus]

Vuc, IMO, is the 180 the opposite case of Giddey. Vuc is a case of a player with positive/negatives, but his negatives are critical to his role of C while his positives are usually done better by other positions. Protecting the paint / blocking shots / finishing lob dunks are the critical roles of a C. Taking a lot of 3 point jumpers and hanging out on the perimeter are done better by guards/wings. This is why Davis Bertrans was never a great C despite shooting 40% from 3 career, 43% from his best season.

Giddey is in the same boat. He can't shoot or defend his position. As a guy who probably has to defend the 3 or 4, he's bringing strengths usually done by a PG that is the smallest guy on your team, and typically a great PG is also a penetrator.

Vuc was always a problem for both ORL & CHI because it creates a hole where nobody is protecting the rim, blocking shots, deterring slashes away from the basket on defense and on offense nobody is a threat in the dunker's spot, running the floor for dunks in transition, or finishing lobs. And we can't fill those roles because you can't play two Centers defensively or offensively.

Giddey is the same except the weaknesses are perimeter defense and shooting, and now you need bigs who can shoot and defend which is super rare.

[jnrjr79]

Vuc, IMO, is the 180 the opposite case of Giddey. Vuc is a case of a player with positive/negatives, but his negatives are critical to his role of C while his positives are usually done better by other positions. Protecting the paint / blocking shots / finishing lob dunks are the critical roles of a C. Taking a lot of 3 point jumpers and hanging out on the perimeter are done better by guards/wings. This is why Davis Bertrans was never a great C despite shooting 40% from 3 career, 43% from his best season.

Giddey is in the same boat. He can't shoot or defend his position. As a guy who probably has to defend the 3 or 4, he's bringing strengths usually done by a PG that is the smallest guy on your team, and typically a great PG is also a penetrator.

Vuc was always a problem for both ORL & CHI because it creates a hole where nobody is protecting the rim, blocking shots, deterring slashes away from the basket on defense and on offense nobody is a threat in the dunker's spot, running the floor for dunks in transition, or finishing lobs. And we can't fill those roles because you can't play two Centers defensively or offensively.

Giddey is the same except the weaknesses are perimeter defense and shooting, and now you need bigs who can shoot and defend which is super rare.

IMO, I don't think it's fair to just sort of assert that shooting is a Giddey weakness anymore. He may regress, particularly if he starts actually having some gravity, but he shot the 3 well this year and IMO the most recent season is the most relevant data set for a player of his age. To me, shooting is more of a question mark than a known negative.

His defense also improved this year, though he has a long way to go before he'd be even an ok defender, and IMO just given his physical attributes that's going to be a tougher nut to crack than shooting.

[dougthonus]

IMO, I don't think it's fair to just sort of assert that shooting is a Giddey weakness anymore. He may regress, particularly if he starts actually having some gravity, but he shot the 3 well this year and IMO the most recent season is the most relevant data set for a player of his age. To me, shooting is more of a question mark than a known negative.

His defense also improved this year, though he has a long way to go before he'd be even an ok defender, and IMO just given his physical attributes that's going to be a tougher nut to crack than shooting.

Yeah, I noted above that I think it's well within the possibility that shooting develops into a non-weakness, but he still only shoots wide open shots, still passes up shots, and still has negative gravity on the floor, so the impact to the team is still a weakness IMO. I agree the percentage he hit this year is promising (and noted so above).

The previous statement was more in line with the risks than meant to be an absolute statement of this will happen this way, though I agree I stated it more absolutely than I meant it.

[MrSparkle]

One area where the Vuc/Giddey comparison falls apart, is that Giddey’s passing is contagious and clearly helps others play better offense. Vuc was always about getting the ball and making a bucket in isolation, which he clearly became worse at after joining Zach and Demar.

I believe Giddey’s ceiling is Nash with size (fringe MVP caliber)- long shot, but after that Lakers game, not entirely.

His floor is Nash without a consistent jumpshot (mediocre), but even more of a defensive target since he’s a slower wing. I also kinda insist he’s injury prone, or atleast will be (funny running gait, looks awkwardly stiff and double jointed, kind of over-exerting his limbs to make NBA plays).

I like his game a lot. Do not like the idea of a max/near-max 4-5y guarantee. Given all his other extensions, I still don’t get why Patrick was blessed with 5y. I just think Giddey falls in the risk category; guarantee less years, have more peace of mind. If he becomes incredible, then you can always just extend him.

I do think he needs a quality big to PnR with. Derik Queen could be that guy. Having a ball handler, scorer, shooter. That PnR would be tough to guard. Defense would be another story. But then you focus on the defensive depth (which maybe hopefully comes around in our farm).

Or the rim protector, but I don’t see this FO getting Malauch (nor him dropping). I don’t see Queen dropping either. Might need to make a trade with Portland to move up (their pick returned + 12)… if not SAS or Houston.

[WindyCityBorn]

Fair points, the hard part is that it will really depend on our team finding a #1 option and what that guy can do. Also, it is easy to fall back on that "it is easy to expose Giddey because he can't shoot 3's or defend" notion. I want to give the kid credit for his meaningful improvement here in both areas. I think he can improve on both in the future to the point where he is average to above average and not a liability.

It's definitely in the range of reasonable / possible outcomes that he makes enough improvement as a shooter / defender for what I said to not be true. I just wouldn't bet on it being the likely outcome.

I think generally, he's a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer, and I think I would generally always avoid those types of players as they prevent you from getting good draft picks and also aren't part of contenders.

I'm roughly with you on the Giddey issue. What are you thinking we should do regarding contract? IMO, we should offer him (before FA starts) the largest contract that we could live with him on as a prominent 6th man long term. That way, if what we suspect happens, he can still be a valuable 20-25 mpg guy and not kill you long term. I don't know what that means dollar wise - maybe $20 mil/year? I understand he probably wouldn't accept this before FA starts, but he might have to after nobody offers him much. At 20 mil/year, he has the potential to be a good value contract. It just sucks that we already have Patrick making 18 mil as a bench guy.

This is why I wanted to trade Giddey before the deadline. I knew he might blow up numbers wise and that it would be something of a mirage for us. He strikes me as a potentially great regular season player who loses in the first round annually when other teams focus on the straightforward ways to neutralize him.

The absolute minimum for Giddey is $25 million right now. Which I think would be a fair deal.

[WindyCityBorn]

One area where the Vuc/Giddey comparison falls apart, is that Giddey’s passing is contagious and clearly helps others play better offense. Vuc was always about getting the ball and making a bucket in isolation, which he clearly became worse at after joining Zach and Demar.

I believe Giddey’s ceiling is Nash with size (fringe MVP caliber)- long shot, but after that Lakers game, not entirely.

His floor is Nash without a consistent jumpshot (mediocre), but even more of a defensive target since he’s a slower wing. I also kinda insist he’s injury prone, or atleast will be (funny running gait, looks awkwardly stiff and double jointed, kind of over-exerting his limbs to make NBA plays).

I like his game a lot. Do not like the idea of a max/near-max 4-5y guarantee. Given all his other extensions, I still don’t get why Patrick was blessed with 5y. I just think Giddey falls in the risk category; guarantee less years, have more peace of mind. If he becomes incredible, then you can always just extend him.

I do think he needs a quality big to PnR with. Derik Queen could be that guy. Having a ball handler, scorer, shooter. That PnR would be tough to guard. Defense would be another story. But then you focus on the defensive depth (which maybe hopefully comes around in our farm).

Or the rim protector, but I don’t see this FO getting Malauch (nor him dropping). I don’t see Queen dropping either. Might need to make a trade with Portland to move up (their pick returned + 12)… if not SAS or Houston.

Giddey Vuc comparison is so lazy.

[MrSparkle]

One area where the Vuc/Giddey comparison falls apart, is that Giddey’s passing is contagious and clearly helps others play better offense. Vuc was always about getting the ball and making a bucket in isolation, which he clearly became worse at after joining Zach and Demar.

I believe Giddey’s ceiling is Nash with size (fringe MVP caliber)- long shot, but after that Lakers game, not entirely.

His floor is Nash without a consistent jumpshot (mediocre), but even more of a defensive target since he’s a slower wing. I also kinda insist he’s injury prone, or atleast will be (funny running gait, looks awkwardly stiff and double jointed, kind of over-exerting his limbs to make NBA plays).

I like his game a lot. Do not like the idea of a max/near-max 4-5y guarantee. Given all his other extensions, I still don’t get why Patrick was blessed with 5y. I just think Giddey falls in the risk category; guarantee less years, have more peace of mind. If he becomes incredible, then you can always just extend him.

I do think he needs a quality big to PnR with. Derik Queen could be that guy. Having a ball handler, scorer, shooter. That PnR would be tough to guard. Defense would be another story. But then you focus on the defensive depth (which maybe hopefully comes around in our farm).

Or the rim protector, but I don’t see this FO getting Malauch (nor him dropping). I don’t see Queen dropping either. Might need to make a trade with Portland to move up (their pick returned + 12)… if not SAS or Houston.

Giddey Vuc comparison is so lazy.

Ultimately, yea. Vuc/Demar/Zach have more in common with each other than Giddey.

Giddey comp world is Rubio.