Tre Jones

[Red8911]

I've always liked Ayo, but I think I like Jones more.

Me too, like Jones over Ball as well. I hope the Bulls/AK feel the same way.

Bring back Jones, then trade Ball and/or Ayo. Tre Jones should be the primary back up PG.

High IQ player who plays well on both ends, shouldn’t even be a question. The only issue is he’s a FA and can choose to go where he wants if he’s got similar or better offers.

[drosestruts]

I've always liked him even pre-trade, wouldn't mind seeing him back on a value contract because I believe Lonzo will either be traded or won't be available for at least half the games.

That being said the Bulls have some critical needs if they're serious about trying to make the playoffs, and another PG is last on that priority list. Bulls were the 2nd highest scoring team in the league post trade, #5 on assists per game. We need more PGs like a car needs a 5th wheel.

OTOH we literally lost the play-in game to get into the postseason because not single person on the team could even bother 6' 6" Tyler Herro from scoring in the paint all game. 6' 1" Tre isn't going to change that.

I actually strongly disagree with this post.

The Bulls were the 2nd highest scoring team post-trade and #5 in assists and a lot of that had to do with Tre - who is a better point guard than Ayo, Coby, Carter. Ball barely played after the trade deadline. Jones was a big factor in these acheivements.

When it comes to the play-in:

Tre is a good defender and would have defended Herro better than the players we had out there.


If you're looking at our post-trade deadline success and our poor performance against the Heat - I think both are arguments for re-signing Tre

[ChettheJet]

Jones is a good example of having the people who make the decisions having to sit down around the big table to stand up and decide what's best.

First the guard glut. If you think Jones is a guy you want coming off the bench, being capable of starting and brings a lot inside and out, you don't talk yourself out of bringing him back, you decide which members of the glut you want to move on from.

Find a way to involve Carter and Terry in trades to take them out of the picture. Decide how much you're willing to pay Ayo and when his agent wants to talk extension, maybe you move on from him. THT is probably looking for a small guaranteed one year deal, is there really any other team that's going to offer him more?

Factor in who are you drafting at #12 who is going to make the roster and #45 who might be G League. Is anyone who was in the G League going to have a shot at making the roster? What position does #12 play, is he good enough to get minutes or does he go to the G League every few weeks to play sme games?

Right now before trades I can see Matas/Vuc/Huerter up front Giddey/White in the backcourt. Williams/Ball/Collins/Smith/Ayo/Phillips/#12 as the bench. That leaves 3 slots. I would like to add Jones and have 2 slots. I don't want to see Terry or Carter even on the roster, THT only if they can't find somebody else. Now a Vuc trade changes a lot of things

[WesPeace]

I want him back, for the contract I mentioned 10x already tho heh.. 8-9M per season, 2yrs deal

I trust him more at PG spot than Ball (because of health issues) and Ayo (more defensive SG, than PG)..

[Almost Retired]

Worth noting that barring an unlikely consolidation trade or Carter surprisingly opting out, we will have to choose between Jones and our #45 pick.

I normally scoff at the value of 2nd round picks, but I'd rather take another shot at a very long shot special player. Maybe Zikarsky or somebody will be available at #45. I'd rather have somebody like that than commit to a multi year deal with a backup guard.

We can always send a developmental player picked at #45 like Zikarsky to Windy Season for their entire season to play meaningful minutes there instead of being just a spectator. I still want the Bulls to deal with Brooklyn to get 2 first round picks (19 & 26 for 12 & 45). That likely gets us two rotation players. In the simulator I was almost always able to draft Essengue or Fleming plus Kalkbrenner with those 2 picks. That gives us the interior defense and length we need considering we have such a guard heavy roster.

[League Circles]

Worth noting that barring an unlikely consolidation trade or Carter surprisingly opting out, we will have to choose between Jones and our #45 pick.

I normally scoff at the value of 2nd round picks, but I'd rather take another shot at a very long shot special player. Maybe Zikarsky or somebody will be available at #45. I'd rather have somebody like that than commit to a multi year deal with a backup guard.

We can always send a developmental player picked at #45 like Zikarsky to Windy Season for their entire season to play meaningful minutes there instead of being just a spectator. I still want the Bulls to deal with Brooklyn to get 2 first round picks (19 & 26 for 12 & 45). That likely gets us two rotation players. In the simulator I was almost always able to draft Essengue or Fleming plus Kalkbrenner with those 2 picks. That gives us the interior defense and length we need considering we have such a guard heavy roster.

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

[sco]

Jones is a good example of having the people who make the decisions having to sit down around the big table to stand up and decide what's best.

First the guard glut. If you think Jones is a guy you want coming off the bench, being capable of starting and brings a lot inside and out, you don't talk yourself out of bringing him back, you decide which members of the glut you want to move on from.

Find a way to involve Carter and Terry in trades to take them out of the picture. Decide how much you're willing to pay Ayo and when his agent wants to talk extension, maybe you move on from him. THT is probably looking for a small guaranteed one year deal, is there really any other team that's going to offer him more?

Factor in who are you drafting at #12 who is going to make the roster and #45 who might be G League. Is anyone who was in the G League going to have a shot at making the roster? What position does #12 play, is he good enough to get minutes or does he go to the G League every few weeks to play sme games?

Right now before trades I can see Matas/Vuc/Huerter up front Giddey/White in the backcourt. Williams/Ball/Collins/Smith/Ayo/Phillips/#12 as the bench. That leaves 3 slots. I would like to add Jones and have 2 slots. I don't want to see Terry or Carter even on the roster, THT only if they can't find somebody else. Now a Vuc trade changes a lot of things

I really think Jones is gone, barring a Ball trade (for a C). I prefer Jones to both Ball and Ayo, and think he'd be the best 5th starter next to Coby and Giddey, but the drop-off to a Ball/Ayo split of that role isn't going to be otherwise worth it.

[sco]

Worth noting that barring an unlikely consolidation trade or Carter surprisingly opting out, we will have to choose between Jones and our #45 pick.

I normally scoff at the value of 2nd round picks, but I'd rather take another shot at a very long shot special player. Maybe Zikarsky or somebody will be available at #45. I'd rather have somebody like that than commit to a multi year deal with a backup guard.

We can always send a developmental player picked at #45 like Zikarsky to Windy Season for their entire season to play meaningful minutes there instead of being just a spectator. I still want the Bulls to deal with Brooklyn to get 2 first round picks (19 & 26 for 12 & 45). That likely gets us two rotation players. In the simulator I was almost always able to draft Essengue or Fleming plus Kalkbrenner with those 2 picks. That gives us the interior defense and length we need considering we have such a guard heavy roster.

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

I agree, but there could be a roster spot issue, that could get resolved by the deadline.

[TheJordanRule]

Worth noting that barring an unlikely consolidation trade or Carter surprisingly opting out, we will have to choose between Jones and our #45 pick.

I normally scoff at the value of 2nd round picks, but I'd rather take another shot at a very long shot special player. Maybe Zikarsky or somebody will be available at #45. I'd rather have somebody like that than commit to a multi year deal with a backup guard.

We can always send a developmental player picked at #45 like Zikarsky to Windy Season for their entire season to play meaningful minutes there instead of being just a spectator. I still want the Bulls to deal with Brooklyn to get 2 first round picks (19 & 26 for 12 & 45). That likely gets us two rotation players. In the simulator I was almost always able to draft Essengue or Fleming plus Kalkbrenner with those 2 picks. That gives us the interior defense and length we need considering we have such a guard heavy roster.

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

Any time I talk to you, LC, I feel I must recognize the fact that you were right about Zach's value since Day 1. I thought there was no way that Zach was gonna make the big bucks he ended up making, and you understood that Zach was developing into a force on the floor, whereas I was tired of him already. Anyway, before I launch into why Jones is much preferable to a 2nd round pick, I must ask if you subscribe to this idea that a bird in the hand beats two in the bush... because that's my mindset. Zitarsky *could* be the second round steal of the draft... or he could be a 2nd round typical wash out who is out of the NBA in two years. I think we gotta go with the proven talent at the NBA level.

[sco]

We can always send a developmental player picked at #45 like Zikarsky to Windy Season for their entire season to play meaningful minutes there instead of being just a spectator. I still want the Bulls to deal with Brooklyn to get 2 first round picks (19 & 26 for 12 & 45). That likely gets us two rotation players. In the simulator I was almost always able to draft Essengue or Fleming plus Kalkbrenner with those 2 picks. That gives us the interior defense and length we need considering we have such a guard heavy roster.

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

Any time I talk to you, LC, I feel I must recognize the fact that you were right about Zach's value since Day 1. I thought there was no way that Zach was gonna make the big bucks he ended up making, and you understood that Zach was developing into a force on the floor, whereas I was tired of him already. Anyway, before I launch into why Jones is much preferable to a 2nd round pick, I must ask if you subscribe to this idea that a bird in the hand beats two in the bush... because that's my mindset. Zitarsky *could* be the second round steal of the draft... or he could be a 2nd round typical wash out who is out of the NBA in two years. I think we gotta go with the proven talent at the NBA level.

So regardless of what you think they should do (I agree with you). What do you think they will do?

[TheJordanRule]

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

Any time I talk to you, LC, I feel I must recognize the fact that you were right about Zach's value since Day 1. I thought there was no way that Zach was gonna make the big bucks he ended up making, and you understood that Zach was developing into a force on the floor, whereas I was tired of him already. Anyway, before I launch into why Jones is much preferable to a 2nd round pick, I must ask if you subscribe to this idea that a bird in the hand beats two in the bush... because that's my mindset. Zitarsky *could* be the second round steal of the draft... or he could be a 2nd round typical wash out who is out of the NBA in two years. I think we gotta go with the proven talent at the NBA level.

So regardless of what you think they should do (I agree with you). What do you think they will do?

This FO is reminiscent of many past Bulls front offices post dynasty. They show no ability to make deals with teams and, aside from drafting, have strengths that are not made clear very often. Unfortunately, I would expect them to cut Jones.

[Dan Z]

I like him, but with Giddey, Coby, Ayo, Ball and Carter under contract, I think it would probably be a mistake to retain him unless someone is traded or we can get him on a 1 year deal. He'll probably be a casualty of circumstance. Keeping too many guys will necessarily decrease the trade value of some of them, which should be prioritized to avoid.

I agree, but also want to add that he'll probably get a better contract offer and opportunity on another team.

[League Circles]

We can always send a developmental player picked at #45 like Zikarsky to Windy Season for their entire season to play meaningful minutes there instead of being just a spectator. I still want the Bulls to deal with Brooklyn to get 2 first round picks (19 & 26 for 12 & 45). That likely gets us two rotation players. In the simulator I was almost always able to draft Essengue or Fleming plus Kalkbrenner with those 2 picks. That gives us the interior defense and length we need considering we have such a guard heavy roster.

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

Any time I talk to you, LC, I feel I must recognize the fact that you were right about Zach's value since Day 1. I thought there was no way that Zach was gonna make the big bucks he ended up making, and you understood that Zach was developing into a force on the floor, whereas I was tired of him already. Anyway, before I launch into why Jones is much preferable to a 2nd round pick, I must ask if you subscribe to this idea that a bird in the hand beats two in the bush... because that's my mindset. Zitarsky *could* be the second round steal of the draft... or he could be a 2nd round typical wash out who is out of the NBA in two years. I think we gotta go with the proven talent at the NBA level.

Lol I appreciate the credit regarding Zach but idk if it's deserved lol. Jones is almost certainly going to be better than whoever we take at #45.............but we still shouldn't want or need him IMO, simply because he raises our floor but limits our ceiling by taking a roster spot (that could in theory go towards our next "star" who we have a 0.1% chance at getting at 45).

I'm still stuck in the mindset of "keep cap space clear until we have a clearly identified worthwhile core", which I admit might be dated thinking, but I'm stubborn.

If we didn't have Coby, Giddey, Ball, Ayo and Carter and weren't possibly going to draft another perimeter guy at #12 I'd be more open to Jones. I like him a lot. Or if we somehow trade Giddey in a surprise move.

[drosestruts]

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

Any time I talk to you, LC, I feel I must recognize the fact that you were right about Zach's value since Day 1. I thought there was no way that Zach was gonna make the big bucks he ended up making, and you understood that Zach was developing into a force on the floor, whereas I was tired of him already. Anyway, before I launch into why Jones is much preferable to a 2nd round pick, I must ask if you subscribe to this idea that a bird in the hand beats two in the bush... because that's my mindset. Zitarsky *could* be the second round steal of the draft... or he could be a 2nd round typical wash out who is out of the NBA in two years. I think we gotta go with the proven talent at the NBA level.

Lol I appreciate the credit regarding Zach but idk if it's deserved lol. Jones is almost certainly going to be better than whoever we take at #45.............but we still shouldn't want or need him IMO, simply because he raises our floor but limits our ceiling by taking a roster spot (that could in theory go towards our next "star" who we have a 0.1% chance at getting at 45).

I'm still stuck in the mindset of "keep cap space clear until we have a clearly identified worthwhile core", which I admit might be dated thinking, but I'm stubborn.

If we didn't have Coby, Giddey, Ball, Ayo and Carter and weren't possibly going to draft another perimeter guy at #12 I'd be more open to Jones. I like him a lot. Or if we somehow trade Giddey in a surprise move.

What if Tre Jones is our "next star"?

I mean his AST:TO ratio and TS% with us were pretty fantastic

[Chi town]

Tre could be a star for us like McConnell is for the Pacers. Highly impactful role player that makes others better.

[MrSparkle]

I for some reason thought Tre Jones had a great little Bulls run once he settled in the starting role… but the on/off numbers seem terrible (fairly small sample size too, but kind of a surprise since I thought he “looked good”)… With 18.8 PER and ultra hot shooting 65% TS, those on/off numbers seem like a red flag?

Maybe someone else can read into these stats better, but he seems like a $2-4M journeyman.

He’s fast, talented at passing and can shoot… but poor on-ball defense makes him yet another liability in a roster full of them. For the record, his on/off was better than Ayo, Pat and Terry. And it could all be a cumulative problem of bad lineups he had to play with… although for a team with a positive rating after ASB, that’s also puzzling.

[sco]

I for some reason thought Tre Jones had a great little Bulls run once he settled in the starting role… but the on/off numbers seem terrible (fairly small sample size too, but kind of a surprise since I thought he “looked good”)… With 18.8 PER and ultra hot shooting 65% TS, those on/off numbers seem like a red flag?

Maybe someone else can read into these stats better, but he seems like a $2-4M journeyman.

He’s fast, talented at passing and can shoot… but poor on-ball defense makes him yet another liability in a roster full of them. For the record, his on/off was better than Ayo, Pat and Terry. And it could all be a cumulative problem of bad lineups he had to play with… although for a team with a positive rating after ASB, that’s also puzzling.

IDK, he looks like a guy who is a very good POA defender against guards. He also was surprisingly good scoring in transition against bigger defenders. He is also a very good playmaker/ball handler. He's average at best at being a scorer and 3pt shooter. IMO, he's a starting-caliber PG and a guy who could start for us alongside Coby/Giddey because he is a good defender who is not a liability offensively.

[TheJordanRule]

Not sure how meaningful the minutes in the G league would be. Anybody that we seriously invest in to potentially be part of our future should IMO be on the Bulls playing a minimum of 10 mpg from day 1, even if ostensibly not ready.

Any time I talk to you, LC, I feel I must recognize the fact that you were right about Zach's value since Day 1. I thought there was no way that Zach was gonna make the big bucks he ended up making, and you understood that Zach was developing into a force on the floor, whereas I was tired of him already. Anyway, before I launch into why Jones is much preferable to a 2nd round pick, I must ask if you subscribe to this idea that a bird in the hand beats two in the bush... because that's my mindset. Zitarsky *could* be the second round steal of the draft... or he could be a 2nd round typical wash out who is out of the NBA in two years. I think we gotta go with the proven talent at the NBA level.

Lol I appreciate the credit regarding Zach but idk if it's deserved lol. Jones is almost certainly going to be better than whoever we take at #45.............but we still shouldn't want or need him IMO, simply because he raises our floor but limits our ceiling by taking a roster spot (that could in theory go towards our next "star" who we have a 0.1% chance at getting at 45).

I'm still stuck in the mindset of "keep cap space clear until we have a clearly identified worthwhile core", which I admit might be dated thinking, but I'm stubborn.

If we didn't have Coby, Giddey, Ball, Ayo and Carter and weren't possibly going to draft another perimeter guy at #12 I'd be more open to Jones. I like him a lot. Or if we somehow trade Giddey in a surprise move.

Oh you deserve the credit, brother. I remember talking to you right after we made the deal with the Wolves back in 2017, about how much Zach would cost to re-sign in free agency. And I went straight delusional claiming Zach would only cost $8 million lol. You told me he would get leverage from Sacramento and get MORE than DOUBLE that. Well, FACTS, he DID get more than double that by using Sacramento for leverage! About a year and half later, I soured on Zach and wanted him gone. You told me he's in the midst of developing into a stronger performer... well, FACTS again! Anyway, Sco's right, this is probably ain't gon happen but I would love it if we traded Coby and Carter and went with a more balanced starting lineup...
PG Jones
SG Ayo
SF Giddey
PF Buz
C Vuce

[kodo]

I for some reason thought Tre Jones had a great little Bulls run once he settled in the starting role… but the on/off numbers seem terrible (fairly small sample size too, but kind of a surprise since I thought he “looked good”)… With 18.8 PER and ultra hot shooting 65% TS, those on/off numbers seem like a red flag?

Maybe someone else can read into these stats better, but he seems like a $2-4M journeyman.

He’s fast, talented at passing and can shoot… but poor on-ball defense makes him yet another liability in a roster full of them. For the record, his on/off was better than Ayo, Pat and Terry. And it could all be a cumulative problem of bad lineups he had to play with… although for a team with a positive rating after ASB, that’s also puzzling.

I'm surprised as well, also thought he looked very good on both ends.

Looked at the lineup data, he mostly played as a direct sub for Giddey. So the same starting lineup as Josh, he wasn't put on a pure bench mob lineup to might kill his #s. He mostly played with Coby-Huerter-Matas-Vuc just like Giddey. But the offensive rating went from 124 (Giddey) to 104 (Tre). 104 would be the worst offensive team in the league by a significant margin if that was our full game offense. Either Tre is offensively horrible (hard to believe that) or Giddey is doing something for that group to make it work well that Tre just isn't despite his excellent assists & TS%.

Although it's an interesting small peak at how the team would look if we let Giddey walk in FA because he's too expensive. Which is quite bad.

[MrSparkle]

I for some reason thought Tre Jones had a great little Bulls run once he settled in the starting role… but the on/off numbers seem terrible (fairly small sample size too, but kind of a surprise since I thought he “looked good”)… With 18.8 PER and ultra hot shooting 65% TS, those on/off numbers seem like a red flag?

Maybe someone else can read into these stats better, but he seems like a $2-4M journeyman.

He’s fast, talented at passing and can shoot… but poor on-ball defense makes him yet another liability in a roster full of them. For the record, his on/off was better than Ayo, Pat and Terry. And it could all be a cumulative problem of bad lineups he had to play with… although for a team with a positive rating after ASB, that’s also puzzling.

I'm surprised as well, also thought he looked very good on both ends.

Looked at the lineup data, he mostly played as a direct sub for Giddey. So the same starting lineup as Josh, he wasn't put on a pure bench mob lineup to might kill his #s. He mostly played with Coby-Huerter-Matas-Vuc just like Giddey. But the offensive rating went from 124 (Giddey) to 104 (Tre). 104 would be the worst offensive team in the league by a significant margin if that was our full game offense. Either Tre is offensively horrible (hard to believe that) or Giddey is doing something for that group to make it work well that Tre just isn't despite his excellent assists & TS%.

Although it's an interesting small peak at how the team would look if we let Giddey walk in FA because he's too expensive. Which is quite bad.

Yeah, it's pretty alarming to me. That's a lot of 3P firepower too, so you'd hope the offensive rating would stay up.

I do think Giddey's been a real plus all season long, even when he was the whipping boy early on. He's a very high IQ player, even if a defensive target. He can disrupt lanes, position himself correctly for stops and rebounds. My hunch is paying him a huge long contract has other ramifications, but I do like his game. But he's not a superstar; I'd say he had an all-star stretch, but he's not there. He's not Jokic/Curry. I would he makes us a respectable average team, not a good team.

IMO there's a reason SAS let Tre go, and loading up on guards wasn't the exact reason. Pops ditched him in the rotation after a respectable 3Y. Like other guards of his caliber (Ayo, Tyus, Morris, Jevon), you have to call them what they are: replacement level guards, who are going to lose you games if heavily relied upon in the top-8 rotation. They're capable of great nights, but the advanced stats don't lie. The catch is that AK has ignored advanced stats in almost every stretch of his roster assembly (from Pat to Vuc to Zach to Jevon to whoever). A wildly negative on/off rating or bad line-up stats have not stopped him from overpaying/resigning FAs.

Anyway, on/off obviously doesn't tell the whole story, especially on a team with crazy rotations, mid-season trades, wildly good and wildly bad stretches... But if you do rank the talent, the trends do suggest that Huerter, Lonzo, Collins, THT, Phillips, Lavine, Giddey, Jalen, Matas (barely negative) were the neutral or positive guys (who atleast played 10 MPG - sorry Jevon and Duarte)... While Vuc, Coby, Tre, Patrick, Terry, Ayo comprised the (deeply) negative bunch.

That kind of tracks with my eyes. I think Vuc is a defensive disaster despite his overall hot shooting last year. Coby plays like a headless chicken for 3/4 of a game (or season) and then turns into an all-star guard for the rest of the time... and when he's on, he looks incredible, but when he's not, he's a defensive liability and an irrational and ineffective offensive player. Ayo had a rough season in every department. He had a handful of phenomenal games, but not enough to save a rough year (capped with the season ending injury). I'm just not sure you can play around him, beyond a cheap deep bench player. But of course I feel AK will resign him in the continuity scheme.