NBA Trade Thread #13

[Infinity2152]

They're both chuckers, Coby has shown that he can be efficient but he's still a chucker.

Simons will never be a plus defender regardless of physical tools, he's not a smart player.

You can call him a chucker if you want. The guy is a career 38% 3pt shooter. Chuck away. He was placed in the number 1 scoring role. His efficiency is not below average. He was supposed to take the most shots, who else was going to take them, lmao! Scoot Henderson? Jeremi Grant?

You talk like you've carefully watched the guy his whole career. If that's true, I'll bow to your superior knowledge. His numbers do not show chucker. His circumstances show that as the SG on that untalented team, he faced the top defender most nights with high usage from 19 thru his early 20's. He'd have to be a superstar to score 20+ efficiently under those conditions. Not saying he's a superstar, or even a star. He's the guy teams put Caruso, or Jrue Holiday or Derrick White, or Lu Dort, whoever's the best guard defender, on.

Now justify why it's better to keep Vucevic. Give one reason. There's zero chance we'd want to re-sign Vucevic after this season, there is a chance we re-sign Simons. Better to keep waiting and let the Celtics and Warriors fill their center holes, and start Vucevic all season than take a chance on a 25 year old who's been scoring 20+ for years?

Simons is at least SOME insurance for our soon to be unrestricted free agent shooting guard, Vucevic is just in the way.

Tell me this: Are you on Team "Get rid of Coby right now!", then? Because all those arguments could be applied to White. Actually, don't know if Coby would have been as efficient on that team as the number 1 option. What about Huerter?

How does a 6'3 "not a smart player", chucker, on a bad team as #1 option manage to average 20+ for years? If he's that bad, everybody should be doing it and shooting 38% from 3. Teams haven't been able to stop that motherchucker?

[Dez]

There's a reason the Blazers got rid of him despite him being young, he doesn't play winning basketball. A one way inefficient chucker, they are a dime a dozen.

I wanted Coby traded last season while he still had time on his value contract which has now diminished because he's expiring.

I'd rather keep Vuc because there's more chance of a team getting desperate at the deadline for him than Simons.

[Infinity2152]

There's a reason the Blazers got rid of him despite him being young, he doesn't play winning basketball. A one way inefficient chucker, they are a dime a dozen.

I wanted Coby traded last season while he still had time on his value contract which has now diminished because he's expiring.

I'd rather keep Vuc because there's more chance of a team getting desperate at the deadline for him than Simons.

Or they wanted Jrue Holiday back. They got back an All Defense team just last year NBA champion who has made every team he's been on better. They did not "get rid of him". They have two young guards in Shaedon Sharpe and Scoot Henderson. Adding one of the best vet guards in the league makes total sense. Jrue Holiday's are NOT a "dime a dozen". I wanted him for the Bulls. Bucks replaced him with Damian Lillard and got smacked, Portland sent him away and played like crap while the Celtics won the championship. That's called "sellers remorse".

If Simons has a good season, you might get a first back in a trade for him, maybe more. He's only 25. What do you think the best possible deadline offer for Vucevic would be? Nobody's giving up much for a half season of expiring Vucevic.

I think Coby and Simons could both be great sixth men. I think Simons might accept it if a better player is front of him. there's a fair chance Coby is no longer with us next year. That's on-ball scoring, 3pt shots at high volume, ballhandling, some playmaking, gone. If the best we're going to get is a second plus two mid expiring players for Vucevic plus having to waive somebody to ride out the season, would rather have the insurance.

We currently have three guys who NEED guard minutes. Giddey, Tre Jones, White. Huerter and Giddey can both play SF. It's likely one or two of those guys will be injured at any given time. Plus it gets Vucevic out of the way. Collins shows out, maybe he's the deadline expiring trade.

NBA average PG TS% in 2024-2025 was 56.4%. Simons career TS% is 56.4%. I'm putting him with the PG's because he's 6'3". His first two years he shot poorly, his TS% would be higher than last years average if you took those out. Over the last 5 years, his TS% is above average. What metrics are you using to call him inefficient? Especially when you consider he's been the number 1 scoring option, which automatically makes it tougher.

His TS% last 5 years is 57.8%, or above NBA average for shooting guards or NBA average payer as well.

[Dez]

Simons is a dime a dozen not Jrue Holiday.

The Blazers got rid of Holiday originally to tank, they didn't get him back because of "sellers remorse" that's just flat out false. They got rid of Simons because he's one dimensional, doesn't play defense and is an undersized SG to get back Jrue because they are looking to develop internally.

Collins is more likely to get injured than any of the guards so it makes more sense to keep Vuc and his expiring than needlessly taking on Simons.

The Bulls have an abundance of cap space opening up after next season, if they're using it on someone like Simons then they aren't serious about rebuilding.

[Infinity2152]

Simons is a dime a dozen not Jrue Holiday.

The Blazers got rid of Holiday originally to tank, they didn't get him back because of "sellers remorse" that's just flat out false. They got rid of Simons because he's one dimensional, doesn't play defense and is an undersized SG to get back Jrue because they are looking to develop internally.

Collins is more likely to get injured than any of the guards so it makes more sense to keep Vuc and his expiring than needlessly taking on Simons.

The Bulls have an abundance of cap space opening up after next season, if they're using it on someone like Simons then they aren't serious about rebuilding.

25 year old 20+ pt scorers averaging that consistently for 3 years are not a dime a dozen. Present proof to support your opinion. There are 30 teams in the league, more than room for a dozen anyway. And we're talking about trading him for Vucevic. Now he's valuable and special? Centers who can't play defense aren't a dime a dozen? Put up the contracts of some of those "dime a dozen" players. Like Jordan Poole. Or Simons. Or Green. They're clearly valued.

You're talking like you're in the front office meetings. You have no idea why they did either trade. Neither do I. Guesses and speculation. Vucevic has been on the trade block the whole time, what are the odds a center is coming back in trade? From a team that needs Vucevic? Any Vucevic trade likely brings back a guard or forward, maybe both. You say it's flat out false, present proof. You say you know the reasons why the Blazers traded Simons after keeping him for 7 years and he's been the same player, present proof.

Collins played 64, 69 and 63 games last three seasons. That doesn't include and DNP-coaches decision, whic is certainly possible. You can't possibly think all our guards have better injury history the last three years.

They would still have the same cap space, that argument is a non-starter. Somehow you know exactly what type of season Simon will have on a new team in a new offense, know everything about a player you've probably only seen when they're playing the Bulls, believe Vucevic's value will go up instead of go down which is far more likely at his age.

I'm not going to act like I know why Portland traded Holiday in the first place, why they wanted him back, or why they traded Simons. Even if they came out and said why, we still wouldn't know the reasons. I presented an alternative. If you know it's wrong, prove it. It took them 7 years to realize Simons was short and one-dimensional? They didn't know his height when they drafted him? Thought he would score 30 pts/gm on crazy effieciency and be a lockdown defender?

Again, make an argument for why Vucevic is better for this team than Collins might get injured, bro. Smith could be starter level. No team keeps three starter level centers for insurance. Plus we drafted a center and Noa could get center minutes. We have 4 centers not including Noa. Explain why keeping a 34 year old who no one wants to start is smarter than trading for a 25-year-old with a similar expiring contract who can come off the bench and not be in anyone's way for a team that's trying to get younger.

[2weekswithpay]

Eh scoring 20ppg isn't what it used to be. 50 players scored 20ppg or more this season, and as long as you get the usage, it isn't that hard. Poole has done it twice, RJ Barrett four times, Cam Thomas twice, Lamelo four times, and Sexton twice, before tearing his ACL and being traded to Utah.

[Infinity2152]

Eh scoring 20ppg isn't what it used to be. 50 players scored 20ppg or more this season, and as long as you get the usage, it isn't that hard. Poole has done it twice, RJ Barrett four times, Cam Thomas twice, Lamelo four times, and Sexton twice, before tearing his ACL and being traded to Utah.

Look at who's done it the last three years in a row. That number is closer to 25-30. Top 6%. What do those guys get paid? There are 450+ players in the league, 50 players would put that around the top 15% of actual scorers, instead of these theoretical super efficient scorers. There are 30 teams in the league, 50 20 pt scorers is not a lot, that's less than 2 per team. Out of 15+ players. It's actually quite valuable. 400 players a year don't do it, and plenty get the opportunity. It's wild that you all think it's easy to score 20 points consistently in the NBA. Poole got a 4 yr/$128 mill deal for doing that. Not for his defense or playmaking. Just that. Almost like NBA games are determined by points, and shooting 3pt'ers at high volume at a good percentage is valuable.


Like how you compare him to those guys and not Morant, or Kyrie, or the fact that most of those 50 players who score 20+ are considered top 50 players. There are way less Jordan Poole's in the 20+ group than Jokic, Booker and Embid. Poole and Lamelo would probably be considered their team's top player. Cam Thomas was the Nets top scorer.

If being a top 15% scorer consistently in the toughest league in the world is just easy, what do you guys consider an elite scorer? Consistently top 5%? Few players in the NBA just "get the usage", especially after 4-5 years. They've earned the usage. The other 13-14 players on that team want the usage and want to score 20+ and get a huge contract too, at least most of them.

Bulls currently don't have 1 player who has averaged 20 the last three seasons. Coby barely made it for the first time last year (20.4). Vucevic last did it 5 years ago. Don't think we have another player who's done it once. Both of them are on the block. Leaving us with zero if they go.

But hey, y'all prefer keeping Vucevic, more power to you. The argument between keeping Vucevic or adding Simons is so obvious to me, I'm pretty much done arguing. I don't think any of you really prefer Vucevic to Simons. Maybe I'm wrong and you really want to keep Vuc, but it feels like trolling.


Hilarious people are upvoting you when you list four of the bottom players out of that 50 as your examples. Maybe if I list four of the best in that group as comparison, I'll be popular too. There are probably 5 guys total scoring 20+ multiple years not considered stars or their team's top option.

Watch some videos of NBA players when fans tell them it's easy to score 20pts every night on a bad team, lol.

[Jello Biafra]

Regarding Ayo trade rumours.

I want to know why the Bulls are shopping him and what they're looking for in return. This is the roster as I see it (just projecting what it will might look like):

Giddey/Jones/Carter
White/Ayo/Huerter
Williams/Okoro/Terry
Buzelis/Essengue/JP
Vuc/Smith/Collins

You can move players to whichever position you think is more accurate, but it looks as though every position is 3 deep. So is it a "we have too many guards" problem, if so, are they then going to trade for a forward or center? Than you'll have a logjam at those positions as well.

If it's straight up for a 2nd rounder or two without a player coming back then that makes somewhat sense.

Unless the Bulls plan on doing a 2-for-1 trade with Ayo included I don't really see why they should look into trading him.

I agree. He's one of the most tenured players and has a pretty good chance of rehabbing his value. Good bet to sign a value contract. I'd think he's much more likely to be-re-signed and be of value than say Huerter, Vucevic, Terry, Phillips, Carter, Collins. He's pretty far down the list of players I'd be actively LOOKING to trade.

This Ayo to the Lakers for Dalton Knecht rumor is kinda silly. The Bulls stated goal is to play fast with two way players. That's Ayo.

Ayo (age 25) was:
-Mentored by Lonzo and Caruso.
-Very good defender
-High motor
-great off the ball cutter
-phenomenal fast break player
-elite driving the basket going right
-attacks teams slow to get back
-solid c&s guy, can be streaky
-League average 3 at above average attempts.

Dalton Knecht (age 24) is Jimmy McBuckets 2.0 and the Bulls already have Huerter who showed a decent all around floor game last year.

The trade idead doesn't fit the Bulls stated goals. It does make the Lakers much better and we know how the Lakers seem to get those Pau, Luka one sided deals so maybe the Bulls become a Lakers feeder franchise too.

[MrSparkle]

Ayo’s one of those guys you wish you could see in a playoff series… on a competent team… where he’s not some 5th guard in the rotation. I’m positive he’d be making impact plays on both ends, like a young Rozier (before his downfall) or even Jrue.

He’s got a bit of everything in his bag- the 2 things holding him back most are iso handles and 3P shooting. It doesn’t seem like the Bulls are moving him.

Huerter’s gonna want a $15M+ salary, heading into his late prime. That’s the guy you probably don’t want to keep. Along with Terry, Patrick (however untradeable he is, doesn’t mean he has to play)… Ayo still looks like a top-7 guy, while just hitting season 5.

[jnrjr79]

Regarding Ayo trade rumours.

I want to know why the Bulls are shopping him and what they're looking for in return. This is the roster as I see it (just projecting what it will might look like):

Giddey/Jones/Carter
White/Ayo/Huerter
Williams/Okoro/Terry
Buzelis/Essengue/JP
Vuc/Smith/Collins

You can move players to whichever position you think is more accurate, but it looks as though every position is 3 deep. So is it a "we have too many guards" problem, if so, are they then going to trade for a forward or center? Than you'll have a logjam at those positions as well.

If it's straight up for a 2nd rounder or two without a player coming back then that makes somewhat sense.

Unless the Bulls plan on doing a 2-for-1 trade with Ayo included I don't really see why they should look into trading him.

I agree. He's one of the most tenured players and has a pretty good chance of rehabbing his value. Good bet to sign a value contract. I'd think he's much more likely to be-re-signed and be of value than say Huerter, Vucevic, Terry, Phillips, Carter, Collins. He's pretty far down the list of players I'd be actively LOOKING to trade.

This Ayo to the Lakers for Dalton Knecht rumor is kinda silly. The Bulls stated goal is to play fast with two way players. That's Ayo.

Ayo (age 25) was:
-Mentored by Lonzo and Caruso.
-Very good defender
-High motor
-great off the ball cutter
-phenomenal fast break player
-elite driving the basket going right
-attacks teams slow to get back
-solid c&s guy, can be streaky
-League average 3 at above average attempts.

Dalton Knecht (age 24) is Jimmy McBuckets 2.0 and the Bulls already have Huerter who showed a decent all around floor game last year.

The trade idead doesn't fit the Bulls stated goals. It does make the Lakers much better and we know how the Lakers seem to get those Pau, Luka one sided deals so maybe the Bulls become a Lakers feeder franchise too.

I'm not all that high on Knecht, but it would seem the argument is:

1) Huerter won't be around is an obvious trade chip
2) the Bulls probably won't pay both Coby and Ayo when they hit FA
3) the Bulls could use more shooting
4) Knecht is cost-controlled

Defensively, though, I don't really see it if Coby is retained.

[Infinity2152]

What does Coby's contract have to do with Ayo's? The Bulls will have like 6-8 players, they're going to have to sign multiple free agents in 2026 barring more trades this year anyway. Ayo's contract is likely to be much more reasonable, imo. He'd probably be signed as the bench SG. He and Coby aren't competing for the same spot or contract. Anybody expecting Ayo to see $25+ mill next season?

They should trade Huerter first using that logic. At least Ayo is a two way player we're familiar with who's already signed one good deal with us.

Expiring players: White, Huerter, Collins, Vucevic, Carter, Phillips (option), Ayo, Terry. I don't think we're adding 8 new players next year. Wouldn't be a bad idea to offer both Huerter and Ayo extensions during the season if we can and the numbers are reasonable. Coby's not likely to accept one, but he'd get offered one too.

[sco]

Eh scoring 20ppg isn't what it used to be. 50 players scored 20ppg or more this season, and as long as you get the usage, it isn't that hard. Poole has done it twice, RJ Barrett four times, Cam Thomas twice, Lamelo four times, and Sexton twice, before tearing his ACL and being traded to Utah.

Look at who's done it the last three years in a row. That number is closer to 25-30. Top 6%. What do those guys get paid? There are 450+ players in the league, 50 players would put that around the top 15% of actual scorers, instead of these theoretical super efficient scorers. There are 30 teams in the league, 50 20 pt scorers is not a lot, that's less than 2 per team. Out of 15+ players. It's actually quite valuable. 400 players a year don't do it, and plenty get the opportunity. It's wild that you all think it's easy to score 20 points consistently in the NBA. Poole got a 4 yr/$128 mill deal for doing that. Not for his defense or playmaking. Just that. Almost like NBA games are determined by points, and shooting 3pt'ers at high volume at a good percentage is valuable.


Like how you compare him to those guys and not Morant, or Kyrie, or the fact that most of those 50 players who score 20+ are considered top 50 players. There are way less Jordan Poole's in the 20+ group than Jokic, Booker and Embid. Poole and Lamelo would probably be considered their team's top player. Cam Thomas was the Nets top scorer.

If being a top 15% scorer consistently in the toughest league in the world is just easy, what do you guys consider an elite scorer? Consistently top 5%? Few players in the NBA just "get the usage", especially after 4-5 years. They've earned the usage. The other 13-14 players on that team want the usage and want to score 20+ and get a huge contract too, at least most of them.

Bulls currently don't have 1 player who has averaged 20 the last three seasons. Coby barely made it for the first time last year (20.4). Vucevic last did it 5 years ago. Don't think we have another player who's done it once. Both of them are on the block. Leaving us with zero if they go.

But hey, y'all prefer keeping Vucevic, more power to you. The argument between keeping Vucevic or adding Simons is so obvious to me, I'm pretty much done arguing. I don't think any of you really prefer Vucevic to Simons. Maybe I'm wrong and you really want to keep Vuc, but it feels like trolling.


Hilarious people are upvoting you when you list four of the bottom players out of that 50 as your examples. Maybe if I list four of the best in that group as comparison, I'll be popular too. There are probably 5 guys total scoring 20+ multiple years not considered stars or their team's top option.

Watch some videos of NBA players when fans tell them it's easy to score 20pts every night on a bad team, lol.

I agree that efficient 20 ppg scorers aren't a dime a dozen. That said, your 3 year point is confused by the fact that we traded two guys who fit that bill recently. Also, it's a positional point too. PF's and C's tend to score more efficiently when they are #1 or #2 options vs. guards.

The other issue is, even if guys are efficient scorers, if they are exploitable as defenders, it offsets their value to their team. IMO, the trio of White, Giddey and Vuc is so flawed defensively, you are never going to be a good team with those 3 as starters. I really want to know if that equation changes by removing Vuc from the equation this season. Coby/Giddey plus 3 above average defenders may be OK, as Giddey seems harder to exploit, so we may only need to hide White.

I would be good getting nothing back for Vuc, but Simons has value as 6th man and insurance.

[2weekswithpay]

Eh scoring 20ppg isn't what it used to be. 50 players scored 20ppg or more this season, and as long as you get the usage, it isn't that hard. Poole has done it twice, RJ Barrett four times, Cam Thomas twice, Lamelo four times, and Sexton twice, before tearing his ACL and being traded to Utah.

Try doing it three years in a row. And once again, what do those guys get paid? There are 450+ players in the league, 50 players would put that around the top 15% of actual scorers, instead of these theoretical super efficient scorers. There are 30 teams in the league, 50 20 pt scorers is not a lot, that's less than 2 per team. Out of 15+ players.

Jalen Green has averaged 20ppg in 3 consecutive seasons, if we round up the 19.6ppg he averaged in his 3rd season. As long as you can get up the shots, scoring 20ppg isn't that hard. I'd guess they get paid more than 30M AAV, since looking at 20+ppg scorers includes a good amount of max contract players, but Simons isn't one of those guys. If you exclude all the max contract and rookie contract players, you get around 15 players who make about 29M AAV.

Compared to where the game was, 50 20ppg scorers is a lot. The number of 20+ scorers has doubled in the last decade. A lot of the 16-18ppg players like Mobley, Sexton, Randle, and Beal could average 20ppg if they played more or jacked up a few more shots. Mikal Bridges went from 17ppg on the Suns to 19.9ppg on the Nets. I'm not saying everyone can do it, but if given a reasonable opportunity, the number of players that could is closer to around 70-80.

When players like RJ Barrett can do it, I don't consider 20ppg to be a major accomplishment.

[Infinity2152]

Eh scoring 20ppg isn't what it used to be. 50 players scored 20ppg or more this season, and as long as you get the usage, it isn't that hard. Poole has done it twice, RJ Barrett four times, Cam Thomas twice, Lamelo four times, and Sexton twice, before tearing his ACL and being traded to Utah.

Look at who's done it the last three years in a row. That number is closer to 25-30. Top 6%. What do those guys get paid? There are 450+ players in the league, 50 players would put that around the top 15% of actual scorers, instead of these theoretical super efficient scorers. There are 30 teams in the league, 50 20 pt scorers is not a lot, that's less than 2 per team. Out of 15+ players. It's actually quite valuable. 400 players a year don't do it, and plenty get the opportunity. It's wild that you all think it's easy to score 20 points consistently in the NBA. Poole got a 4 yr/$128 mill deal for doing that. Not for his defense or playmaking. Just that. Almost like NBA games are determined by points, and shooting 3pt'ers at high volume at a good percentage is valuable.


Like how you compare him to those guys and not Morant, or Kyrie, or the fact that most of those 50 players who score 20+ are considered top 50 players. There are way less Jordan Poole's in the 20+ group than Jokic, Booker and Embid. Poole and Lamelo would probably be considered their team's top player. Cam Thomas was the Nets top scorer.

If being a top 15% scorer consistently in the toughest league in the world is just easy, what do you guys consider an elite scorer? Consistently top 5%? Few players in the NBA just "get the usage", especially after 4-5 years. They've earned the usage. The other 13-14 players on that team want the usage and want to score 20+ and get a huge contract too, at least most of them.

Bulls currently don't have 1 player who has averaged 20 the last three seasons. Coby barely made it for the first time last year (20.4). Vucevic last did it 5 years ago. Don't think we have another player who's done it once. Both of them are on the block. Leaving us with zero if they go.

But hey, y'all prefer keeping Vucevic, more power to you. The argument between keeping Vucevic or adding Simons is so obvious to me, I'm pretty much done arguing. I don't think any of you really prefer Vucevic to Simons. Maybe I'm wrong and you really want to keep Vuc, but it feels like trolling.


Hilarious people are upvoting you when you list four of the bottom players out of that 50 as your examples. Maybe if I list four of the best in that group as comparison, I'll be popular too. There are probably 5 guys total scoring 20+ multiple years not considered stars or their team's top option.

Watch some videos of NBA players when fans tell them it's easy to score 20pts every night on a bad team, lol.

I agree that efficient 20 ppg scorers aren't a dime a dozen. That said, your 3 year point is confused by the fact that we traded two guys who fit that bill recently. Also, it's a positional point too. PF's and C's tend to score more efficiently when they are #1 or #2 options vs. guards.

The other issue is, even if guys are efficient scorers, if they are exploitable as defenders, it offsets their value to their team. IMO, the trio of White, Giddey and Vuc is so flawed defensively, you are never going to be a good team with those 3 as starters. I really want to know if that equation changes by removing Vuc from the equation this season. Coby/Giddey plus 3 above average defenders may be OK, as Giddey seems harder to exploit, so we may only need to hide White.

I would be good getting nothing back for Vuc, but Simons has value as 6th man and insurance.

Those two guys we traded off were multiple time All Stars. They got paid a HUGE amount as primarily volume scorers. Efficient scorers who brought nothing to the defense. You cannot keep watching these guys get huge contracts every year and just keep saying they are not valuable. The excuse cannot be that NBA GM's every year know less about basketball than fans. Luka's bad defensively, Kyrie is bad defensively, Tra Young is bad defensively, Brunson is bad defensively, the list goes on.

Nobody's saying Anfernee Simons is a superstar. The league values 20pt scorers and it's shown every single time they hit free agency. Any trade for Vucevic is bringing a player(s) back. We're not getting some elite two way star for him.

[Infinity2152]

Eh scoring 20ppg isn't what it used to be. 50 players scored 20ppg or more this season, and as long as you get the usage, it isn't that hard. Poole has done it twice, RJ Barrett four times, Cam Thomas twice, Lamelo four times, and Sexton twice, before tearing his ACL and being traded to Utah.

Try doing it three years in a row. And once again, what do those guys get paid? There are 450+ players in the league, 50 players would put that around the top 15% of actual scorers, instead of these theoretical super efficient scorers. There are 30 teams in the league, 50 20 pt scorers is not a lot, that's less than 2 per team. Out of 15+ players.

Jalen Green has averaged 20ppg in 3 consecutive seasons, if we round up the 19.6ppg he averaged in his 3rd season. As long as you can get up the shots, scoring 20ppg isn't that hard. I'd guess they get paid more than 30M AAV, since looking at 20+ppg scorers includes a good amount of max contract players, but Simons isn't one of those guys. If you exclude all the max contract and rookie contract players, you get around 15 players who make about 29M AAV.

Compared to where the game was, 50 20ppg scorers is a lot. The number of 20+ scorers has doubled in the last decade. A lot of the 16-18ppg players like Mobley, Sexton, Randle, and Beal could average 20ppg if they played more or jacked up a few more shots. Mikal Bridges went from 17ppg on the Suns to 19.9ppg on the Nets. I'm not saying everyone can do it, but if given a reasonable opportunity, the number of players that could is closer to around 70-80.

When players like RJ Barrett can do it, I don't consider 20ppg to be a major accomplishment.

So add Jaen Green to the 25-30 that have actually done it the last three years. Still a very low number, compared to the 450 players and 60 two-ways that have the chance every year to do just that. Do you think every player in the NBA doesn't want to score at least 20 pts/gm?

Ok, so you don't consider scoring in the top 10% of NBA players multiple years in a row an accomplishment. Around $29 mill AAV would be considered a pretty valuable player, right? Are most players getting that, or are most players getting significantly less? Why are GM's paying these guys then?

[jnrjr79]

What does Coby's contract have to do with Ayo's? The Bulls will have like 6-8 players, they're going to have to sign multiple free agents in 2026 barring more trades this year anyway. Ayo's contract is likely to be much more reasonable, imo. He'd probably be signed as the bench SG. He and Coby aren't competing for the same spot or contract. Anybody expecting Ayo to see $25+ mill next season?

It's a salary cap sport. Every contract has something to do with every other contract on a roster. I doubt the Bulls want to use all their 2026 FA flexibility just to re-sign existing players, because we know the roster is pretty sucky as currently constructed.

I don't know that I see Ayo at $25M+, but KC Johnson said yesterday that he expects Ayo to decline any extension offer, which would mean Ayo minimally sees himself as earning more than the MLE (because that's roughly what he can be extended for). I'm not sure I agree he'll get that, but we'll see.

[jnrjr79]

Look at who's done it the last three years in a row. That number is closer to 25-30. Top 6%. What do those guys get paid? There are 450+ players in the league, 50 players would put that around the top 15% of actual scorers, instead of these theoretical super efficient scorers. There are 30 teams in the league, 50 20 pt scorers is not a lot, that's less than 2 per team. Out of 15+ players. It's actually quite valuable. 400 players a year don't do it, and plenty get the opportunity. It's wild that you all think it's easy to score 20 points consistently in the NBA. Poole got a 4 yr/$128 mill deal for doing that. Not for his defense or playmaking. Just that. Almost like NBA games are determined by points, and shooting 3pt'ers at high volume at a good percentage is valuable.


Like how you compare him to those guys and not Morant, or Kyrie, or the fact that most of those 50 players who score 20+ are considered top 50 players. There are way less Jordan Poole's in the 20+ group than Jokic, Booker and Embid. Poole and Lamelo would probably be considered their team's top player. Cam Thomas was the Nets top scorer.

If being a top 15% scorer consistently in the toughest league in the world is just easy, what do you guys consider an elite scorer? Consistently top 5%? Few players in the NBA just "get the usage", especially after 4-5 years. They've earned the usage. The other 13-14 players on that team want the usage and want to score 20+ and get a huge contract too, at least most of them.

Bulls currently don't have 1 player who has averaged 20 the last three seasons. Coby barely made it for the first time last year (20.4). Vucevic last did it 5 years ago. Don't think we have another player who's done it once. Both of them are on the block. Leaving us with zero if they go.

But hey, y'all prefer keeping Vucevic, more power to you. The argument between keeping Vucevic or adding Simons is so obvious to me, I'm pretty much done arguing. I don't think any of you really prefer Vucevic to Simons. Maybe I'm wrong and you really want to keep Vuc, but it feels like trolling.


Hilarious people are upvoting you when you list four of the bottom players out of that 50 as your examples. Maybe if I list four of the best in that group as comparison, I'll be popular too. There are probably 5 guys total scoring 20+ multiple years not considered stars or their team's top option.

Watch some videos of NBA players when fans tell them it's easy to score 20pts every night on a bad team, lol.

I agree that efficient 20 ppg scorers aren't a dime a dozen. That said, your 3 year point is confused by the fact that we traded two guys who fit that bill recently. Also, it's a positional point too. PF's and C's tend to score more efficiently when they are #1 or #2 options vs. guards.

The other issue is, even if guys are efficient scorers, if they are exploitable as defenders, it offsets their value to their team. IMO, the trio of White, Giddey and Vuc is so flawed defensively, you are never going to be a good team with those 3 as starters. I really want to know if that equation changes by removing Vuc from the equation this season. Coby/Giddey plus 3 above average defenders may be OK, as Giddey seems harder to exploit, so we may only need to hide White.

I would be good getting nothing back for Vuc, but Simons has value as 6th man and insurance.

Those two guys we traded off were multiple time All Stars. They got paid a HUGE amount as primarily volume scorers. Efficient scorers who brought nothing to the defense. You cannot keep watching these guys get huge contracts every year and just keep saying they are not valuable. The excuse cannot be that NBA GM's every year know less about basketball than fans. Luka's bad defensively, Kyrie is bad defensively, Tra Young is bad defensively, Brunson is bad defensively, the list goes on.

Nobody's saying Anfernee Simons is a superstar. The league values 20pt scorers and it's shown every single time they hit free agency. Any trade for Vucevic is bringing a player(s) back. We're not getting some elite two way star for him.

It's kinda funny saying the league values 20 PPG scorers, yet Nikola Vucevic (18.5 and 10 RPG) has no value. I guess that 1.5 PPG makes a big difference!

[Infinity2152]

What does Coby's contract have to do with Ayo's? The Bulls will have like 6-8 players, they're going to have to sign multiple free agents in 2026 barring more trades this year anyway. Ayo's contract is likely to be much more reasonable, imo. He'd probably be signed as the bench SG. He and Coby aren't competing for the same spot or contract. Anybody expecting Ayo to see $25+ mill next season?

It's a salary cap sport. Every contract has something to do with every other contract on a roster. I doubt the Bulls want to use all their 2026 FA flexibility just to re-sign existing players, because we know the roster is pretty sucky as currently constructed.

I don't know that I see Ayo at $25M+, but KC Johnson said yesterday that he expects Ayo to decline any extension offer, which would mean Ayo minimally sees himself as earning more than the MLE (because that's roughly what he can be extended for). I'm not sure I agree he'll get that, but we'll see.

We will have to likely add 6-8 players next summer. I don't think bringing back 2-3 bench players would be considered using all their cap space to re-sign existing players, lmao! Bit of an exaggeration. Does it make more sense to sign an unfamiliar player at the same level for the same amount of money, rather than bringing Ayo back? Why?

Not to mention, regardless of the Bulls intentions, NOBODY knows what's happening with Coby's contract summer 2026. He's an unrestricted free agent whether we bring Ayo back or not. Both are free agents at the same time. Why would they make the decision now, when both can go anywhere they want? We could trade Ayo right now and Coby can still leave. We'll have more than enough cap space to easily sign both if we want to keep both and they want to stay.

I don't think Ayo gets more than the MLE without a really strong season either.

[jnrjr79]

What does Coby's contract have to do with Ayo's? The Bulls will have like 6-8 players, they're going to have to sign multiple free agents in 2026 barring more trades this year anyway. Ayo's contract is likely to be much more reasonable, imo. He'd probably be signed as the bench SG. He and Coby aren't competing for the same spot or contract. Anybody expecting Ayo to see $25+ mill next season?

It's a salary cap sport. Every contract has something to do with every other contract on a roster. I doubt the Bulls want to use all their 2026 FA flexibility just to re-sign existing players, because we know the roster is pretty sucky as currently constructed.

I don't know that I see Ayo at $25M+, but KC Johnson said yesterday that he expects Ayo to decline any extension offer, which would mean Ayo minimally sees himself as earning more than the MLE (because that's roughly what he can be extended for). I'm not sure I agree he'll get that, but we'll see.

We will have to likely add 6-8 players next summer. I don't think bringing back 2-3 bench players would be considered using all their cap space to re-sign existing players, lmao! Bit of an exaggeration. Does it make more sense to sign an unfamiliar player at the same level for the same amount of money, rather than bringing Ayo back? Why? We have to fill out our bench with players.

Not to mention, regardless of the Bulls intentions, NOBODY knows what's happening with Coby's contract summer 2026. He's an unrestricted free agent whether we bring Ayo back or not.

I don't get this. They are both UFAs. Nobody knows what's happening with either.

The Bulls figure to have a lot of space next year (subject to whatever deals they may or not make this year). But free agency is no longer really the way to go get big players. I don't know if the Bulls will go big game hunting, but obviously signing both Coby and Ayo would really limit their flexibility to do so.

IMO, given that free agency is dicey these days, it's more likely that the Bulls try to package expirings for someone significant at the deadline this year and then whoever that acquisition is impedes their ability to sign Coby and Ayo. But if the Bulls can't swing that (and I"m pessimistic), I have no real opinion on what they'll do.

[Infinity2152]

It's a salary cap sport. Every contract has something to do with every other contract on a roster. I doubt the Bulls want to use all their 2026 FA flexibility just to re-sign existing players, because we know the roster is pretty sucky as currently constructed.

I don't know that I see Ayo at $25M+, but KC Johnson said yesterday that he expects Ayo to decline any extension offer, which would mean Ayo minimally sees himself as earning more than the MLE (because that's roughly what he can be extended for). I'm not sure I agree he'll get that, but we'll see.

We will have to likely add 6-8 players next summer. I don't think bringing back 2-3 bench players would be considered using all their cap space to re-sign existing players, lmao! Bit of an exaggeration. Does it make more sense to sign an unfamiliar player at the same level for the same amount of money, rather than bringing Ayo back? Why? We have to fill out our bench with players.

Not to mention, regardless of the Bulls intentions, NOBODY knows what's happening with Coby's contract summer 2026. He's an unrestricted free agent whether we bring Ayo back or not.

I don't get this. They are both UFAs. Nobody knows what's happening with either.

The Bulls figure to have a lot of space next year (subject to whatever deals they may or not make this year). But free agency is no longer really the way to go get big players. I don't know if the Bulls will go big game hunting, but obviously signing both Coby and Ayo would really limit their flexibility to do so.

IMO, given that free agency is dicey these days, it's more likely that the Bulls try to package expirings for someone significant at the deadline this year and then whoever that acquisition is impedes their ability to sign Coby and Ayo. But if the Bulls can't swing that (and I"m pessimistic), I have no real opinion on what they'll do.

Exactly the point. Free agency is the worst way to add players usually. We currently have no big contracts. Giddey probably signs sub-$$30 mill and Williams at $18 mill is all we really have on the books. They could easily re-sign Coby, Ayo, and add a big name player. Assuming we're not maxing Coby. What are you thinking Coby's salary is going to be? Is Coby's salary likely to be MUCH more than Ayo's? I think so.

Hard to speculate on what Ayo is going to get. Ayo from last year might get Tre Jone's contract. Find out if we can re-sign or extend guys that fit like Huerter, Ayo, keep Phillips, at value prices. They remain value pieces and trade bait we retain at better than free agency prices.

I'm a firm believer in trade pieces over cap space when you're big game hunting. Seems backwards to trade Ayo to pay Coby, when Coby's far more likely to overpaid. People crapping on getting Anfernee Simons for damn near free (Vucevic!!!!), Coby's basically the same guy.

Agree with the package expirings to get a big player at the deadline possibility. Coby's the most valuable expiring player by a lot. Who else could be the centerpiece of a trade for a big name player?

So many teams with money, predicting some BAD contracts summer 2026, despite what it looks like this summer when everybody's broke.