Would you offer Ayo an extension?

[_txchilibowl_]

Something like 4/50 and I'm in. Maybe up to 4/60 but I'd want a team option.

[Chi town]

Sure. Give him that Tre Jones deal.

Lowest I think Ayo would take would be 12M per.

[PaKii94]

I have an irrational love for ayo. Don't know what contract he's worth but I want him in the team long term

[League Circles]

This is why we can't have nice things

[League Circles]

Let's extend Dalen Terry and Julian Phillips too. Gotta lock in that 3rd unit.

[League Circles]

I would have been sorta OK with an Ayo extension if we hadn't signed Jones, hadn't traded for Okoro, and/or did something with Huerter or Williams, but those guys are providing us all the mediocrity we could ever hope for on the perimeter, so Ayo needs to be the odd man out, if even only due to timing and sequencing.

[rosenthall]

I would be up for re-signing Ayo, but 4/50 is where I top out, and even with that I'm hesitant due to the opportunity cost of cap space. Anything above that is just really risky. After what just happened in FA, I just don't see how you pro-actively offer sizable deals to non-stars.

Other reason not to extend him is that between him, Jones and Okoro, we'd have pre-committed a non-trivial portion of our cap space to mid-tier rotation guys. Even if they're all on value deals, we've used up almost a max contract on guys that don't project to be above 5th starter quality.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

I like Ayo but unless it's a super team-friendly, tradable deal, no way. Anything close to $15mil AAV over multiple years is a Patrick Williams esque contract.

I'd echo the 4/40 figure, maybe like 4/45 if the last year is a team option. He and Pat can command the tank and expire at the same time. That's still probably too much. Can't just keep adding bad money when bad money is finally coming off the books. I think Ayo is realistically worth a Jalen Smith, Jevon Carter esque contract. More than Jevon these days obviously, but 5% or so of the cap, let's say $8.25mil increasing up to about $10mil in the fourth year. $36mil over 4 years seems like a fair deal for both sides. Bump it up to $40mil because he's a cool guy and it's a pretty marginal amount.

The Coby contract was the best thing AK's front office has done but didn't capitalize on it. He really should've been traded. Ayo is not as good as Coby, probably isn't going to 'take a leap' or even improve at all. He's a solid bench player. I think everyone on the bench should be a second rounder/undrafted/Euroleague guy making next to nothing. Maybe you strike gold and have a valuable trade asset or otherwise have cap space to sign a star player.

I think the assertion of paying him $80mil is totally wild. That's how you continue the treadmill.

[kodo]

I really like Ayo but it makes no sense for us with $19M wrapped up in Tre & Okoro.
He's in the opposite situation of Giddey, he showed great play 2 years ago and none of it recently.
Post-ASG in 2024 Ayo: 16.8 ppg 5.2 apg, 49.5% FG 38.3% 3P 87% FT, 59.6% TS.

Ayo shoots 61% on 2s, that's a crazy high FG%. Over the last two seasons he's been 59.4% TS, that's very high for a roleplayer defensive guard.
Caruso 56%, McBride 53%, Nembhard 54%, Sheppard 55%, FVV 51%, Westbrook 53%, Podz 55%. And these are playoff teams.

But with the Tre & Okoro acquisitions, Ayo may not get off the bench unless we start doing the PGs at PF thing again.

Our depth I assume is
G Giddey / Tre
G White / Okoro
F Huerter / Terry
F Buzelis / Pat / Noa
C Vuc / Collins / Smith

So Ayo is a 3rd stringer. Or if he's the first backup, why did we just spend money on Okoro/Tre when neither Giddey or White are resigned.

[MrSparkle]

With the injury and coming off poor numbers, barre a big jump, I think he’s MLE zone. But of Bulls will have to sweeten the offer to keep him, since anybody can offer mle. The right deal is 30/3, but I’m not sure that’ll happen.

The Bulls books are already getting clogged, imo. Just a bunch of pointless bench players who are completely interchangeable with lower salary vets or (good) late first round picks. I like Ayo, but what the hell is the point of having 2 career bench guards locked up, when your starters aren’t even resigned yet?

[Stratmaster]

Ayo's eligible for an extension right now, and given how boring this off-season is, it's kind of surprising we haven't talked about it.

He could get up to 4/88 (MLE+40% with 8% raises).

Would you offer this deal to Ayo? something lower?

Unlike Giddey whom probably has something like 100M in total earnings already between his endorsements, Ayo's not ever had a monster contract yet. If I were him and I got this 4/88 deal, I'd probably take it. If you're the Bulls, this isn't without risk. At the end of last season, this would feel like an overpay, but at the end of the season before, this would look like a deal.

I'd probably be willing to gamble on Ayo, because I think he play multiple positions well and fit next to more or less any players in the league. I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard more about him in extension talk, but likely the challenge in the short term is that any number the Bulls give him becomes an anchor in the Giddey negotiation, so they're likely to wait until after that is concluded before engaging.

So your number for Giddey is a begrudging 25 mil. But you are willing to give Ayo 22 mil?

Ayo is a 36% career 3 point shooter. He had 2 seasons where he shot under 33%, including 32.8% in 46 games last season. At best, an average rebounder and defender for his position, while not being disruptive in either category. For the most part he has only been a starter when pressed into duty due to injuries. He has shown no indication of a yet to be seen upside. The assumption is he will be playing behind Josh and Coby. They just re-signed Tre Jones. Assuming Giddey and White both get 25 mil minimum AAV you have 58 million already invested in the Guard position. If you add 22 mil for Ayo you now have 80 million invested. Granted, with Giddey's size and Billy's approach Giddey will play against the 3 or 4 defensively as much as he plays the 1 or 2. But none of the other 3 impress me as being players who can do that.

I love Ayo and want him on the team. If they offer him 4/88 I don't think there is any "probably" in that equation. He will snatch it in a heartbeat. Personally I would have traded Coby as the Bulls could have gotten something/someone of value for him. In that case I would probably be more apt to consider 22 mil for Ayo. But that didn't happen and the Bulls seem hell-bent on paying Coby White 30 million plus.I don't think they can pay Ayo 22 AAV if they want any chance to fill in the rest of the slots they need to compete for more than the play-in. More like 4/60.

[Stratmaster]

If I offer Giddey 4/80 it would be very strange offering Ayo 4/88. I'm not even sure I would offer him the MLE. 4/40 sounds like a very rich offer for what he brings to the table.

FWIW, I'm not suggesting you have to go 4/88, just that's the max he could get offered, and it's in the range he'd take (ie, there is some deal here that we could work out). It's worth noting that at the end of the 23/24 season, people were looking at Ayo like he might command 30M a year.

I don't recall anyone putting him in the 30M range. But I could be mistaken.

[CROBulls]

Yes, you offer extension. For what his value is. Nothing else nothing more. Either you lock him on 5 year cheap deal, or just find replacement in FA. We also have enough guards where we dont need to go FA.

[Stratmaster]

10 million is obscene for a guy who doesn't play, which Ayo is clearly at risk for even on this mediocre team. I mean at the 1-2-3 spots, clearly Coby, Giddey, Jones and Okoro are already ahead of him in the pecking order. If Essengue plays some at the 3 spot he likely will be too. I also happen to think Patrick and Huerter are likely to be ahead of him.

So he's projecting as the 5th to 8th best perimeter player on an average team. When guys are healthy you don't need any more than 6 max. And on top of all of that, Matas would be better at the 3, and both Terry AND Phillips have more physical upside potential.

I highly doubt that Ayo is going to be a healthy scratch. He is currently the best two-way guard on the team.

Just off principle, paying Ayo 10M for the next four years with a rising cap is a huge win on the margins. There is so much room for him to outplay that salary and he doesn't have to do much to justify it.

He really isn't the best 2-way Guard on the team. He is likely the 3rd best defensively. Someone else put it perfectly. He isn't BAD at anything but he isn't really above average at anything either.

I love Ayo. When the Bulls had Lavine I said for multiple seasons Ayo should be starting next to him, not Coby. But that ship has sailed. With Lavine gone Coby is the volume shooter, and Giddey is going to have the ball in his hands. I said in my previous post 4/60. Honestly, the more I consider it I probably wouldn't go that high.

Which is sad.

[Chi town]

I really like Ayo but it makes no sense for us with $19M wrapped up in Tre & Okoro.
He's in the opposite situation of Giddey, he showed great play 2 years ago and none of it recently.
Post-ASG in 2024 Ayo: 16.8 ppg 5.2 apg, 49.5% FG 38.3% 3P 87% FT, 59.6% TS.

Ayo shoots 61% on 2s, that's a crazy high FG%. Over the last two seasons he's been 59.4% TS, that's very high for a roleplayer defensive guard.
Caruso 56%, McBride 53%, Nembhard 54%, Sheppard 55%, FVV 51%, Westbrook 53%, Podz 55%. And these are playoff teams.

But with the Tre & Okoro acquisitions, Ayo may not get off the bench unless we start doing the PGs at PF thing again.

Our depth I assume is
G Giddey / Tre
G White / Okoro
F Huerter / Terry
F Buzelis / Pat / Noa
C Vuc / Collins / Smith

So Ayo is a 3rd stringer. Or if he's the first backup, why did we just spend money on Okoro/Tre when neither Giddey or White are resigned.

Come on now.

No way Terry gets a min over Ayo.

Ayo or Okoro will most likely start over Huerter because we need the defense.

[rosenthall]

I really like Ayo but it makes no sense for us with $19M wrapped up in Tre & Okoro.

I think this is kind of it. Ayo makes a lot of sense to have on a roster, but between Tre, Okoro and Pat, we've already got $38 million of annual cap wrapped up in mid-rotation defensive role players. Even if on decent contracts, that type of stuff doesn't translate into a greater capability to acquire a Matas level talent on your roster. There's a point of diminishing returns with these types of deals, even if each one individually makes sense.

He's in the opposite situation of Giddey, he showed great play 2 years ago and none of it recently.
Post-ASG in 2024 Ayo: 16.8 ppg 5.2 apg, 49.5% FG 38.3% 3P 87% FT, 59.6% TS.

I actually don't think Ayo has been particularly streaky throughout his career. His shot, maybe, but basically every player is like that, sans the greats. He had a bum shoulder for most of last year, which is the biggest reason for his shooting slump. Everything else was about the same, IMO. And just about any guy who's been in the league for 4+ years has at least one really nice stretch that inflates their actual value if you extrapolate it to an entire season.

Ayo shoots 61% on 2s, that's a crazy high FG%. Over the last two seasons he's been 59.4% TS, that's very high for a roleplayer defensive guard.
Caruso 56%, McBride 53%, Nembhard 54%, Sheppard 55%, FVV 51%, Westbrook 53%, Podz 55%. And these are playoff teams.

Agree here. Getting + TS Add from a defensive role player in the backcourt is a nice touch.

But with the Tre & Okoro acquisitions, Ayo may not get off the bench unless we start doing the PGs at PF thing again.

Our depth I assume is
G Giddey / Tre
G White / Okoro
F Huerter / Terry
F Buzelis / Pat / Noa
C Vuc / Collins / Smith

So Ayo is a 3rd stringer. Or if he's the first backup, why did we just spend money on Okoro/Tre when neither Giddey or White are resigned.

I'd bet that Ayo is part of our core rotation next year, even with our guard glut. Billy has never had an issue finding ways to play guards he likes, and I think Ayo is clearly ahead of Terry, Noa and one of Collins / Smith next year.

I think our rotation is:

White / Tre / Ayo
Okoro / Huerter
Giddey / Pat
Matas / Pat
Vuc / Collins

If he's healthy, pretty sure he'll still see the court for ~20 MPG, because Billy. So I don't think his value tanks next year. But it's hard to see him breaking out with our roster and a likely 1/4 season warmup necessary to get his offensive touch back.

[Chi town]

Yes, you offer extension. For what his value is. Nothing else nothing more. Either you lock him on 5 year cheap deal, or just find replacement in FA. We also have enough guards where we dont need to go FA.

You think a resigned Ayo on a good number will bring Coby back too?

Coby is clearly the better player and will be paid accordingly but this summer has shown scoring guards that don’t defend are being greatly devalued.

I do think Ayo could be crazy good in this pace offense with Giddey.

[Stratmaster]

Yes, you offer extension. For what his value is. Nothing else nothing more. Either you lock him on 5 year cheap deal, or just find replacement in FA. We also have enough guards where we dont need to go FA.

You think a resigned Ayo on a good number will bring Coby back too?

Coby is clearly the better player and will be paid accordingly but this summer has shown scoring guards that don’t defend are being greatly devalued.

I do think Ayo could be crazy good in this pace offense with Giddey.

Hey, if they are willing to trade Coby, I will go 4/65 for Ayo. He would indeed be fun in the offense the Bulls are dead-set on running.

[Chi town]

Yes, you offer extension. For what his value is. Nothing else nothing more. Either you lock him on 5 year cheap deal, or just find replacement in FA. We also have enough guards where we dont need to go FA.

You think a resigned Ayo on a good number will bring Coby back too?

Coby is clearly the better player and will be paid accordingly but this summer has shown scoring guards that don’t defend are being greatly devalued.

I do think Ayo could be crazy good in this pace offense with Giddey.

Hey, if they are willing to trade Coby, I will go 4/65 for Ayo. He would indeed be fun in the offense the Bulls are dead-set on running.

Don’t think you would need to go that high at all.

I think Ayo or Coby will be traded for our defensive C.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

Good thread btw, very active and interesting discussion. Maybe everyone is just here because they all have the day off