What would YOUR rotation look like to start the season?

[dougthonus]

Sure - my question was more based in whether a demotion of Vooch to the 3rd string is likely to cause locker room issues, complaining in the media, etc. that would outweigh the potential utility to keeping him as a trade chip or depth piece in the event you trade others.

I maybe buried it a bit, but I would rather keep him and meet him in the middle on his playing time demands as the 2nd string guy or maybe even as a token starter guy then to buy him out because I think the outcome wouldn't change much and we aren't committed to any of the other guys long term anyway so it isn't important to get them playing time.

[jnrjr79]

Sure - my question was more based in whether a demotion of Vooch to the 3rd string is likely to cause locker room issues, complaining in the media, etc. that would outweigh the potential utility to keeping him as a trade chip or depth piece in the event you trade others.

I maybe buried it a bit, but I would rather keep him and meet him in the middle on his playing time demands as the 2nd string guy or maybe even as a token starter guy then to buy him out because I think the outcome wouldn't change much and we aren't committed to any of the other guys long term anyway so it isn't important to get them playing time.

I hadn't thought about token starter status - but yeah, giving him the Bogans treatment could make some sense.

[dougthonus]

Isn't that what BPM is though? Plus/minus with some adjustments? I posted about it a couple weeks ago, I don't think it's a great stat, I'm also not paying too much credence to +/- in general. Too many factors at play. Defensive stats in basketball are hard in general...I might actually be thinking about "real plus minus" but I don't think that's used anymore.
Although I think this is a pretty good post about its potential usefulness: https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/cvoiq9/basketball_stat_box_plusminus_bpm/

BPM doesn't actually use +/- it uses some weird formula to create estimates.

What was that website that showed the on/off stats of various lineups? I'll take a look but can't remember what it's called. I'm definitely dubious that every other center is producing better outcomes though.

I'm getting numbers from basketball-reference, look at the play-by-play section and click on "on-off" which is the number that weighs outcome when on the court vs when off the court

Only including rotation players in guys worse:

2025:
Vuc -2 (Pat, Ayo, Coby, Terry worse)
Collins +6.6
Smith +.04

2024:
Vuc -6.3 (2nd worst behind Craig)
Drummond +3.4
Terry/Sanogo much higher but barely played

2023:
Vuc -8.1 (2nd worst behind Pat)
Drummond 2.1
Bradley much higher but barely played

2022:
Vuc -3.7 (3rd worst behind Ayo/Pat)
Bradley 9.5
Simonovic / Tristan Thompson both much higher but barely played

Of this years, he's consistently been among our worst rotation players in how well we play with him on the court. Pat (whom everyone universally accepts as awful) is the only guy whom has been a consistent terrible outlier in this over that same time span. On/Off numbers are always dicey for a lot of different reasons, but the gap between Vuc and literally any other center we put on the floor is pretty jarring regardless of who the center is, over a 4 year span.

I don't want to put time and effort into coming up with an accurate per minute weight gap, but eyeballing it, I'd guess it's something like a 10 points per 48 minute negative differential when Vuc plays vs any other center plays over the past four years. This isn't all causality at all, I don't think the actual gap is entirely Vuc and there are other factors at play, but the number is so huge and consistent that its pretty eyepopping.

I will say 2025 is his best year here too, even though there is a huge gap with Collins, I think that's partially due to the whole team doing better after the trade deadline.

[League Circles]

I like this thread, especially if we can avoid making it a Vuc thread (which unfortunately I'm probably about to help do, though it is not my intent ).

One question: Are we to consider that these guys are real human beings? As in (sorry to invoke Vuc so quickly) can I just DNP Vuc the whole season and not worry that this would in fact be a ridiculously stupid idea on a "these are real humans" level?

I'll do it both ways.

THESE ARE NOT REAL HUMAN BEINGS:

PG: Giddey/Ayo/Tre
SG: Coby/Huerter/Ayo/Okoro
SF: Okoro/Pat/Buzelis
PF: Buzelis/Essengue/Pat
C: Smith/Collins

I didn't attach specific minutes to these players but some basic thoughts: (a) Giddey and Coby play 32+ mpg; (b) Smith and Collins essentially split time at the 5; (c) Essengue would be brought along relatively slowly early but I would look to play him at both forward positions in time if it is not visibly counter-productive to his own development; and (d) Okoro can be treated as a sunk cost - if he doesn't appear to have it, he should be demoted pretty quickly.

I would DNP Vuc, Carter, Terry and Phillips. The latter 3 because they are terrible and there are significantly higher upside players than them all over the roster.

With Vuc its due to 2 things: (a) his style of play inhibits our ability to fully evaluate the guys we need to be evaluating (most urgently Ayo and Coby, but also to a lesser extent Essengue, Matas and Giddey) in the setting we expect them to play in; and (b) I prefer small decisions here and there that depress winning next season. I do think completely benching him makes us a little worse, which is a good thing in my view.

THESE ARE REAL HUMAN BEINGS:

Same thing except Vuc begins as the starter at about 24 mpg and then gets about 20 MPG or less if I can't trade him by December 1st. One of Collins or Smith gets their minutes whacked until the trade deadline. After the trade deadline Vuc doesn't play anymore and can request to be waived to join a playoff team.

I would say we should answer as if we really were Billy Donovan ourselves. So for me, yes I'd consider the human impact (locker room chemistry let's call it) of entirely benching Vuc, and for me that's part of the reason that I'd play Vuc as our 6th or 7th man off the bench. I happen to also think that we should try to win games this year, and since I don't view Collins as part of our future, and my other 2nd unit guys are better defensively than offensively for the most part, I actually think Vuc is the short term basketball choice also. I do think Collins (and Smith) are a bit better overall than Vuc, but in the second unit we need scoring more than more defense. Especially if Ayo beats out Huerter largely.

I basically see the second unit offense as being Jones feeding Vuc and Patrick mostly.

[sco]

I like this thread, especially if we can avoid making it a Vuc thread (which unfortunately I'm probably about to help do, though it is not my intent ).

One question: Are we to consider that these guys are real human beings? As in (sorry to invoke Vuc so quickly) can I just DNP Vuc the whole season and not worry that this would in fact be a ridiculously stupid idea on a "these are real humans" level?

I'll do it both ways.

THESE ARE NOT REAL HUMAN BEINGS:

PG: Giddey/Ayo/Tre
SG: Coby/Huerter/Ayo/Okoro
SF: Okoro/Pat/Buzelis
PF: Buzelis/Essengue/Pat
C: Smith/Collins

I didn't attach specific minutes to these players but some basic thoughts: (a) Giddey and Coby play 32+ mpg; (b) Smith and Collins essentially split time at the 5; (c) Essengue would be brought along relatively slowly early but I would look to play him at both forward positions in time if it is not visibly counter-productive to his own development; and (d) Okoro can be treated as a sunk cost - if he doesn't appear to have it, he should be demoted pretty quickly.

I would DNP Vuc, Carter, Terry and Phillips. The latter 3 because they are terrible and there are significantly higher upside players than them all over the roster.

With Vuc its due to 2 things: (a) his style of play inhibits our ability to fully evaluate the guys we need to be evaluating (most urgently Ayo and Coby, but also to a lesser extent Essengue, Matas and Giddey) in the setting we expect them to play in; and (b) I prefer small decisions here and there that depress winning next season. I do think completely benching him makes us a little worse, which is a good thing in my view.

THESE ARE REAL HUMAN BEINGS:

Same thing except Vuc begins as the starter at about 24 mpg and then gets about 20 MPG or less if I can't trade him by December 1st. One of Collins or Smith gets their minutes whacked until the trade deadline. After the trade deadline Vuc doesn't play anymore and can request to be waived to join a playoff team.

I would say we should answer as if we really were Billy Donovan ourselves. So for me, yes I'd consider the human impact (locker room chemistry let's call it) of entirely benching Vuc, and for me that's part of the reason that I'd play Vuc as our 6th or 7th man off the bench. I happen to also think that we should try to win games this year, and since I don't view Collins as part of our future, and my other 2nd unit guys are better defensively than offensively for the most part, I actually think Vuc is the short term basketball choice also. I do think Collins (and Smith) are a bit better overall than Vuc, but in the second unit we need scoring more than more defense. Especially if Ayo beats out Huerter largely.

I basically see the second unit offense as being Jones feeding Vuc and Patrick mostly.

Well said all around.

IMO, if we're stuck with Vuc, him coming off the bench for 20MPG is the least damaging approach. IMO, the value of his offense is diminished with White/Matas/Giddey playing bigger roles. Whether or not Vuc is good (he isn't overall) or bad, isn't the most important thing. It's that he doesn't play well with pace/in transition (which is our stated style of play) coupled with the fact that his high need for touches on the offense hinders Matas' development into a 3rd (ideally 2nd) scoring option next season (with plays run for him), coupled with the fact that he's not here after next season. I've also noted before that Vuc's bad defense, removes our ability to see if/how well the White/Giddey pairing can work when playing with 3 good defenders (including a decent defensive C). So we'll go through all or most of the season with Vuc mucking things up, and then need to make an uninformed decision on keeping Coby.

A starting line-up of White/Okoro/Giddey/Matas/Smith makes sense to roll with. Off the bench, I just want Jones to get as close to 30MPG as possible and Noa to get at least 10MPG...the others can battle for the scraps. It'd be great if Pat or Ayo won those battles and be better than they were.

[drosestruts]

My starting lineup would be:

Giddey
White
Huerter
Buzelis
Vucevic

This was our best lineup that played significant minutes last year, amongst players still here. If it ain't brok,e don't fix it school of thought.

My bench unit would be:

Jones
Ayo
Okoro
Williams
Smith

I'd expect both units to play FAST.

I'd like to find minutes for Noa, Collins, and Phillips, but I'm unsure where those minutes would come from.

I hope we're healthy enough to never see Carter or Terry.

[kodo]

For Vuc's rim protection, it's better to just look at his defended FG% at the rim.
Vucevic: 67.8%
Smith: 56.6%
Collins: 57.1%
---------
Capela: 56.0%
Porzingis: 51.5%
Claxton: 58.7%
Allen: 52.2%
Duren: 62.3%
Turner: 57.7%
Ware: 62.8%
Lopez: 58.6%
Robinson: 62.0%
Carter: 57.2%

He's clearly not good at rim protection. That doesn't take into account how he defends out in space...but the eye test doesn't look great for him there.

The most damaging part of Vuc's (lack of) rim protection isn't even giving up more layups, Billy has established a defensive scheme of just collapsing everyone in the paint so we leave the 3P line wide open on any drive. Bulls Opponent 3PA rank last 3 years:
2025: 27th
2024: 30th
2023: 29th

We can go for the play-in, but if the hope is the Bulls are a playoff team I don't see how that's possible in the modern era when your defense is designed to give opponents as many 3P shots as possible.

Getting a paint protector center who doesn't need all 4 other players helping him when the ball starts moving into the paint would be a huge first step in establishing something better than a bottom defense. And this isn't a Billy complaint...actually a compliment that Billy somehow got us to just a below average defense giving up this many 3s.

I guess to the original question of who starts, Vuc is better than Smith at scoring (61% TS vs 58.6% TS) but Collins is better than either (63.5%). I think even if Smith is slightly less efficient, it's a small difference where there's a huge difference in rim protection. And if Collins plays all year like he did last year, he's better than either overall.

And both are better rebounders than Vuc. Per 36 it's Smith (13.4) then Collins (12.2) and Vuc last (11.6).

There isn't much compelling reason to start Vuc for offense or defensive reasons. I guess it would be mainly intangibles. He's certainly a vet. Or maybe a trade showcase for a mid season trade.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

Isn't that what BPM is though? Plus/minus with some adjustments? I posted about it a couple weeks ago, I don't think it's a great stat, I'm also not paying too much credence to +/- in general. Too many factors at play. Defensive stats in basketball are hard in general...I might actually be thinking about "real plus minus" but I don't think that's used anymore.
Although I think this is a pretty good post about its potential usefulness: https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/cvoiq9/basketball_stat_box_plusminus_bpm/

BPM doesn't actually use +/- it uses some weird formula to create estimates.

What was that website that showed the on/off stats of various lineups? I'll take a look but can't remember what it's called. I'm definitely dubious that every other center is producing better outcomes though.

I'm getting numbers from basketball-reference, look at the play-by-play section and click on "on-off" which is the number that weighs outcome when on the court vs when off the court

Only including rotation players in guys worse:

2025:
Vuc -2 (Pat, Ayo, Coby, Terry worse)
Collins +6.6
Smith +.04

2024:
Vuc -6.3 (2nd worst behind Craig)
Drummond +3.4
Terry/Sanogo much higher but barely played

2023:
Vuc -8.1 (2nd worst behind Pat)
Drummond 2.1
Bradley much higher but barely played

2022:
Vuc -3.7 (3rd worst behind Ayo/Pat)
Bradley 9.5
Simonovic / Tristan Thompson both much higher but barely played

Of this years, he's consistently been among our worst rotation players in how well we play with him on the court. Pat (whom everyone universally accepts as awful) is the only guy whom has been a consistent terrible outlier in this over that same time span. On/Off numbers are always dicey for a lot of different reasons, but the gap between Vuc and literally any other center we put on the floor is pretty jarring regardless of who the center is, over a 4 year span.

I don't want to put time and effort into coming up with an accurate per minute weight gap, but eyeballing it, I'd guess it's something like a 10 points per 48 minute negative differential when Vuc plays vs any other center plays over the past four years. This isn't all causality at all, I don't think the actual gap is entirely Vuc and there are other factors at play, but the number is so huge and consistent that its pretty eyepopping.

I will say 2025 is his best year here too, even though there is a huge gap with Collins, I think that's partially due to the whole team doing better after the trade deadline.

Neat, thanks. Didn't know this even existed.

But I mean, it's also suggesting that Coby is twice as bad as Vuc. Duarte, THT, Javon are at the top and Huerter is BY FAR the best on the team last year.
Just glancing around at some other teams, LeBron was -5 last season. Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brown were 0.5 and -0.5 respectively 'outplayed' by Derrick White. Ant Edwards at -1.5 to Mike Conley's 3.6. Jalen Brunson -4.6, Cam Payne 7.4. Joakim Noah would've been the worst player on our 62-20 2011 Bulls sans Scalabrine John Lucas III at -4.4. And -4.9 the next season.

I'm definitely cherry-picking these. Jokic, Shai, Embiid, Giannis, Steph look very good in the +/- department. I liked that website I was referring to in the last post because it showed how a lineup of, say, 'Coby-Giddey-Matas-Okoro-xPlayer' performed vs 'Coby-Giddey-Matas-Okoro-yPlayer'. I think what you're showing is interesting for sure, I'm just not sure it's super telling. Or what it's telling exactly. The absolute best players are definitely high up there, but I think we know how impactful Jo Noah was compared to Asik (loved the guy) or Taj. Great bench players for sure. Taj is grading close to Jokic in strictly +/- per 100 possessions actually.

Omer the starter looked good in this way in Houston, but got benched anyway. Was simply average in NOP, 0.5 meanwhile Tyreke Evans was 5.4. The next season, Omer and Anthony Davis are both really bad +/- and Tyreke is still third best below Jrue and Ryan Anderson (two guys off the bench). Effective bench units is kinda what I'm thinking and Vuc/Noah aren't MVP caliber players putting the team on their back. Of course, my guys Jimmy and Niko Mirotic are grading out very well here...so I might have to change my view. 2013-2014 Spurs when they won the title had a memorable bench unit as I recall. Parker and Duncan are toward the bottom and Manu and Patty Mills are top 2.

I just think there are too many things going on for +/- to be super useful to measure individual performance. But it's interesting nonetheless. I dunno that there's any real good way to measure defensive impact beyond traditional stats and stats we don't have access to (spatial statistics like how fast are players rotating, success in pick and roll, etc). I'm also thinking the coaching schemes do the heavy lifting.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

LOL I'm sorry we turned this into the Vuc discussion thread

[dougthonus]

I just think there are too many things going on for +/- to be super useful to measure individual performance. But it's interesting nonetheless. I dunno that there's any real good way to measure defensive impact beyond traditional stats and stats we don't have access to (spatial statistics like how fast are players rotating, success in pick and roll, etc). I'm also thinking the coaching schemes do the heavy lifting.

FWIW, I agree and I don't generally believe in this number for a lot of reasons.

I said what is interesting about Vuc is that it is highly consistent over a very high number of years. Massive outliers over 4+ years are more likely to have some meaning in this very noisy stat, and Vuc has reached massive outlier status consistently for four years.

[GoBlue72391]

PG Giddey 30
SG Coby 32
SF Okoro 18
PF Matas 27
C Collins 20

6 Vuc 24
7 Huerter 20
8 Jones 18
9 Ayo 16
10 Smith 15
11 Essengue 10

12 Terry DNP
13 Phillips DNP
14 Pat DNP
15 Carter DNP

[SalmonsSuperfan]

I just think there are too many things going on for +/- to be super useful to measure individual performance. But it's interesting nonetheless. I dunno that there's any real good way to measure defensive impact beyond traditional stats and stats we don't have access to (spatial statistics like how fast are players rotating, success in pick and roll, etc). I'm also thinking the coaching schemes do the heavy lifting.

FWIW, I agree and I don't generally believe in this number for a lot of reasons.

I said what is interesting about Vuc is that it is highly consistent over a very high number of years. Massive outliers over 4+ years are more likely to have some meaning in this very noisy stat, and Vuc has reached massive outlier status consistently for four years.

So now I'm looking at his on/off numbers in Orlando.
2019: 4.3
2018: 8.3
2017: 6.0
2016:5.8

To me, this speaks to schemes and team-building more than anything else. And role. It's consistently lower in Chicago, right, but these have been the worst basketball teams I've ever watched...to the point that I've tuned out of Bulls bball--though expecting to watch more this coming year.

I don't think Vuc suddenly got worse after being traded to Chicago. Frankly, he kinda looks like the guy he was in Orlando just in a reduced role. Not a superstar, not even an all-star, but a useful player. Someone that would've done better in a more ball movement heavy offense. Less dominated by Zach. Agreed that going to him in the post was not smart unless you 'need' a reasonably high percentage bucket in certain situations. I think I am on record saying I think his game would age well, and it seems to. This past season was arguably his best year, right?

Again, sorry to fixate on this, I don't really care and my homerism re: Vuc has definitely faded from years past. But I think it's just wrong to say that Zach Collins or Jalen Smith or...Tony Bradley... are better at basketball and contribute more to winning. I think people around the NBA agree with me. Vuc reportedly had a trade market, meanwhile Smith signed a longterm, low-paid deal to be a backup. Why would Klutch Sports allow that if he was actually better? Zach Collins just straight up sucks and his contract (the same as Vuc) was simply highway robbery. We had to take him back as bad money, meanwhile I think the Bulls front office didn't want to move Vuc for bad money and picks. And also they keep **** up trades.

[Chi town]

The game has changed in the worst way for Vuc.

Chicago is leading the way in how it’s played with pace and 3s. What they are missing is the defensive C to get their defense to match up with their pace and help with easy baskets after turnovers.

Vuc is def holding them back.

[dougthonus]

I don't think Vuc suddenly got worse after being traded to Chicago. Frankly, he kinda looks like the guy he was in Orlando just in a reduced role. Not a superstar, not even an all-star, but a useful player. Someone that would've done better in a more ball movement heavy offense. Less dominated by Zach. Agreed that going to him in the post was not smart unless you 'need' a reasonably high percentage bucket in certain situations. I think I am on record saying I think his game would age well, and it seems to. This past season was arguably his best year, right?

Again, sorry to fixate on this, I don't really care and my homerism re: Vuc has definitely faded from years past. But I think it's just wrong to say that Zach Collins or Jalen Smith or...Tony Bradley... are better at basketball and contribute more to winning. I think people around the NBA agree with me. Vuc reportedly had a trade market, meanwhile Smith signed a longterm, low-paid deal to be a backup. Why would Klutch Sports allow that if he was actually better? Zach Collins just straight up sucks and his contract (the same as Vuc) was simply highway robbery. We had to take him back as bad money, meanwhile I think the Bulls front office didn't want to move Vuc for bad money and picks. And also they keep **** up trades.

I don't think those guys are better at basketball per se.

I think the problem is that Vuc is highly skilled, very talented, but not dominant enough, and his skills no longer match the NBA. His usage is generally a negative relative to letting better players use the ball instead. That wasn't a problem in Orlando because they didn't have better players, and they were a disaster.

The game has also evolved a lot over the past 5 years to push hard into the more heliocentric players with shooters around them, and so that shift overall has lessened Vuc's value because the overall efficiency of the league has gone up.

So it isn't that Vuc is less talented than Collins, he's definitely more talented. It's that Vuc isn't talented enough that he should be the main guy taking shots, and he uses the ball way too much relative to his talents compared to others. Jalen Smith and Zach Collins (or lesser players) don't do that. Their lack of talent actually allows them to fit into their roles better and the ball is then distributed to more talented players on offense.

On defense, literally every one of those players, even the lousy ones like Bradley are simply better than Vuc. So you are left with a guy who is really talented offensively but utilizing those talents tends to create a slight negative affect while he is the worst defender compared to guys whom are less talented offensively, but also touch the ball way less and only touch it at times where they're more likely to create a good outcome and give you more on defense.

I think the conundrum of the "talented scorer" that you don't want to utilize is a niche the Bulls play a lot in. Giddey is basically a poster child for the same problem, but he's a lot younger so obviously more of a chance he fixes it.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

I don't think those guys are better at basketball per se.

I think the problem is that Vuc is highly skilled, very talented, but not dominant enough, and his skills no longer match the NBA. His usage is generally a negative relative to letting better players use the ball instead. That wasn't a problem in Orlando because they didn't have better players, and they were a disaster.

The game has also evolved a lot over the past 5 years to push hard into the more heliocentric players with shooters around them, and so that shift overall has lessened Vuc's value because the overall efficiency of the league has gone up.

So it isn't that Vuc is less talented than Collins, he's definitely more talented. It's that Vuc isn't talented enough that he should be the main guy taking shots, and he uses the ball way too much relative to his talents compared to others. Jalen Smith and Zach Collins (or lesser players) don't do that. Their lack of talent actually allows them to fit into their roles better and the ball is then distributed to more talented players on offense.

On defense, literally every one of those players, even the lousy ones like Bradley are simply better than Vuc. So you are left with a guy who is really talented offensively but utilizing those talents tends to create a slight negative affect while he is the worst defender compared to guys whom are less talented offensively, but also touch the ball way less and only touch it at times where they're more likely to create a good outcome and give you more on defense.

I think the conundrum of the "talented scorer" that you don't want to utilize is a niche the Bulls play a lot in. Giddey is basically a poster child for the same problem, but he's a lot younger so obviously more of a chance he fixes it.

If usg% is to be believed, Vuc has consistently been the third option until Zach was traded. DeMar and Zach not being "that guy" seemed like a bigger cause of a bad team. Vuc seemed to adapt and was, last season, second fiddle to Coby who is less efficient and we all love. Arguably third to Giddey but he isn't really a scorer. Vuc isn't the main guy and isn't paid like one.
To me, Vuc was a fine "third option" if DeMar and Zach had been better as 1 and 2. Stacey always complained that they weren't getting him shots where he excelled. Which is what it is and King's POV was kinda dumb (more post-ups) but I also think it's part of Billy's bad coaching. He doesn't get the most out of his players. Players come here and perform worse. Leave and do better (Lauri should still be on the team though he seemingly regressed).

The three-headed monster obviously didn't work and I had high hopes. It might've been more effective if Lonzo was healthy or if we had Giddey from the start. In retrospect, I wish we had that pick that became Wagner. And did a lesser deal for Wendell who actually kinda sucks. I kinda wish we built our team like Orlando did post-Vuc. They're not a great team but they're better than the Bulls.

I'd ask: who should be taking shots instead of Vuc on this Bulls team? Coby, I'd say. Maybe Matas but that's yet to be proven. There isn't really anyone else and, when we were trying to be good, he deferred to the guards. But I don't think a center who can stretch the floor, handle the ball a little bit and pass the ball well doesn't have a place in the NBA. He's kind of a homeless man's Jokic. A guy like Roy Hibbert doesn't really have a place in NBA these days although Gobert is kind of a stud...but sort of overrated to me.

[dougthonus]

If usg% is to be believed, Vuc has consistently been the third option until Zach was traded. DeMar and Zach not being "that guy" seemed like a bigger cause of a bad team. Vuc seemed to adapt and was, last season, second fiddle to Coby who is less efficient and we all love. Arguably third to Giddey but he isn't really a scorer. Vuc isn't the main guy and isn't paid like one.
To me, Vuc was a fine "third option" if DeMar and Zach had been better as 1 and 2. Stacey always complained that they weren't getting him shots where he excelled. Which is what it is and King's POV was kinda dumb (more post-ups) but I also think it's part of Billy's bad coaching. He doesn't get the most out of his players. Players come here and perform worse. Leave and do better (Lauri should still be on the team though he seemingly regressed).

The three-headed monster obviously didn't work and I had high hopes. It might've been more effective if Lonzo was healthy or if we had Giddey from the start. In retrospect, I wish we had that pick that became Wagner. And did a lesser deal for Wendell who actually kinda sucks. I kinda wish we built our team like Orlando did post-Vuc. They're not a great team but they're better than the Bulls.

I'd ask: who should be taking shots instead of Vuc on this Bulls team? Coby, I'd say. Maybe Matas but that's yet to be proven. There isn't really anyone else and, when we were trying to be good, he deferred to the guards. But I don't think a center who can stretch the floor, handle the ball a little bit and pass the ball well doesn't have a place in the NBA. He's kind of a homeless man's Jokic. A guy like Roy Hibbert doesn't really have a place in NBA these days although Gobert is kind of a stud...but sort of overrated to me.

You can agree or disagree on my opinions on Vuc and why he has been so bad. The reality is the Bulls have been awful whenever he plays in a way that has been consistent for four years and consistently worse than any other center and worse over that time period than any other player on the roster.

I've given you reasons why I think it is true. Here's what I think will be true next year:
1: He will be the worst defensive big we have by a large margin
2: He is the slowest big we have, least able to play at the pace we want
3: He will not draw anyone out with his threat as a shooter, so even if he shoots well he will make the offense harder on everyone else
4: His post game will yield bad possessions overall of inefficient scoring and taking too much time off the clock to get better shots elsewhere
5: Should he play, he'll continue to compile posting stats and terrible floor impact numbers

[pipfan]

I know this is not possible, but here's my rotation
Giddey/Jones/Ayo
Okoro/CWhite/Ayo
Matas/Huerter/Okoro
PWill/Matas/Phillips
JSmith/Collins
Trade Vuc for something

I know, starting PWill is crazy-but we need something from him

[sco]

I don't think those guys are better at basketball per se.

I think the problem is that Vuc is highly skilled, very talented, but not dominant enough, and his skills no longer match the NBA. His usage is generally a negative relative to letting better players use the ball instead. That wasn't a problem in Orlando because they didn't have better players, and they were a disaster.

The game has also evolved a lot over the past 5 years to push hard into the more heliocentric players with shooters around them, and so that shift overall has lessened Vuc's value because the overall efficiency of the league has gone up.

So it isn't that Vuc is less talented than Collins, he's definitely more talented. It's that Vuc isn't talented enough that he should be the main guy taking shots, and he uses the ball way too much relative to his talents compared to others. Jalen Smith and Zach Collins (or lesser players) don't do that. Their lack of talent actually allows them to fit into their roles better and the ball is then distributed to more talented players on offense.

On defense, literally every one of those players, even the lousy ones like Bradley are simply better than Vuc. So you are left with a guy who is really talented offensively but utilizing those talents tends to create a slight negative affect while he is the worst defender compared to guys whom are less talented offensively, but also touch the ball way less and only touch it at times where they're more likely to create a good outcome and give you more on defense.

I think the conundrum of the "talented scorer" that you don't want to utilize is a niche the Bulls play a lot in. Giddey is basically a poster child for the same problem, but he's a lot younger so obviously more of a chance he fixes it.

If usg% is to be believed, Vuc has consistently been the third option until Zach was traded. DeMar and Zach not being "that guy" seemed like a bigger cause of a bad team. Vuc seemed to adapt and was, last season, second fiddle to Coby who is less efficient and we all love. Arguably third to Giddey but he isn't really a scorer. Vuc isn't the main guy and isn't paid like one.
To me, Vuc was a fine "third option" if DeMar and Zach had been better as 1 and 2. Stacey always complained that they weren't getting him shots where he excelled. Which is what it is and King's POV was kinda dumb (more post-ups) but I also think it's part of Billy's bad coaching. He doesn't get the most out of his players. Players come here and perform worse. Leave and do better (Lauri should still be on the team though he seemingly regressed).

The three-headed monster obviously didn't work and I had high hopes. It might've been more effective if Lonzo was healthy or if we had Giddey from the start. In retrospect, I wish we had that pick that became Wagner. And did a lesser deal for Wendell who actually kinda sucks. I kinda wish we built our team like Orlando did post-Vuc. They're not a great team but they're better than the Bulls.

I'd ask: who should be taking shots instead of Vuc on this Bulls team? Coby, I'd say. Maybe Matas but that's yet to be proven. There isn't really anyone else and, when we were trying to be good, he deferred to the guards. But I don't think a center who can stretch the floor, handle the ball a little bit and pass the ball well doesn't have a place in the NBA. He's kind of a homeless man's Jokic. A guy like Roy Hibbert doesn't really have a place in NBA these days although Gobert is kind of a stud...but sort of overrated to me.

I don't think the question is who should be taking the shots instead of Vuc. I think the question is what can Giddey, Coby and Matas do as your scoring trio, if you put a couple of good defenders next to them? Because that is the easiest direction to move forward from here. It is especially important to answer that this season before you have to pay Coby. If Vuc is here and starting, you really won't get that sense, and have wasted the season for no good reason.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

You can agree or disagree on my opinions on Vuc and why he has been so bad. The reality is the Bulls have been awful whenever he plays in a way that has been consistent for four years and consistently worse than any other center and worse over that time period than any other player on the roster.

I've given you reasons why I think it is true. Here's what I think will be true next year:
1: He will be the worst defensive big we have by a large margin
2: He is the slowest big we have, least able to play at the pace we want
3: He will not draw anyone out with his threat as a shooter, so even if he shoots well he will make the offense harder on everyone else
4: His post game will yield bad possessions overall of inefficient scoring and taking too much time off the clock to get better shots elsewhere
5: Should he play, he'll continue to compile posting stats and terrible floor impact numbers

lol it's true, I don't think we're changing each other's mind. I think we might agree that we should try to trade him for anything and otherwise I'm OK with a buyout. I think there might be evidence to either one of our points if he's bought out and if a playoff team does or doesn't pick him up.

I don't think the question is who should be taking the shots instead of Vuc. I think the question is what can Giddey, Coby and Matas do as your scoring trio, if you put a couple of good defenders next to them? Because that is the easiest direction to move forward from here. It is especially important to answer that this season before you have to pay Coby. If Vuc is here and starting, you really won't get that sense, and have wasted the season for no good reason.

Yeah I agree with this actually. I'm just operating under the assumption that the Bulls are trying to 'win now' (which I think is silly) and not necessarily looking to see what they have with their young players. I'd start Matas if this were true, give the rookie significant minutes, and Vuc would've been gone a long time ago.

[Infinity2152]

Was actually a huge proponent of Smith starting next year, but change my vote to Collins. He doesn't seem like a crazy good defender but the Bulls were a LOT better with him on the court, 10 pts per 100 possessions better on defense. Half a season is not a small sample size. Vuc seems like a guy with a good temperament, and he's DESTROYING backup bigs, he could still get the lion's share of minutes coming off the bench if that's necessary to keep the peace.

He's older now, and that adds shooting, scoring, playmaking and rebounding to the bench unit, while improving the starting defense. I hope Billy is brave enough to do it, I really don't think Vuc would go crazy.

Giddey/Jones/Carter
White/Huerter/Ayo
Okoro/Williams/Terry
Buzelis/Essengue/Phillips
Collins/Vucevic/Smith

Vuc's scoring and vet presence would be a huge plus with a bench unit of Jones, Huerter, Williams, Essengue. If the second unit plays at a slower pace with Vucevic on the floor, most of those guys are half court players anyway.

If the Bulls are concerned at all about maximizing Vucevic's and Collins' trade value before the deadline, starting Collins and giving him minutes should push his value up, while demoting Vucevic to sixth man likely doesn't affect his much.