It happened. Pat got 8 Rebounds.

[LateNight]

He has a nice three that is always sort of what it is - but that cut and dunk off the assist from Giddey was one of the nicest plays I’ve seen him complete in a while. Nice action - good movement, aggressive finish

[dougthonus]

Even then, how much does low-volume catch-and-shoot 3s on wide open attempts with poor rebounding, low motor, and decent defense really help as opposed to playing someone like Essengue over him for development purposes and just giving more minutes to our glut of good bench guards + Okoro and maybe Smith?

I think that group could, and probably should, eat up most of his minutes. Even at his best, Pat struggled to make an impact on the game. At this point, I don't even care if he's technically better than some others, just play the guy who will impact the game.

I would probably have the rotation like this, and that's already tight with 11 guys:
PG Giddey 30
SG White 32
SF Okoro 20
PF Buzelis 28
C Vucevic 26
6 Dosunmu 22
7 Jones 22
8 Collins 20
9 Huerter 18
10 Smith 12
11 Essengue 10

Who deserves to have their minutes trimmed to get Pat in the rotation? We just traded for Okoro, so he's going to play, and Essengue needs some PT, whether deserved or not, for his development.

I know Pat WILL get minutes, but he shouldn't unless we're leaning heavily on 3 preseason games.

You seem to be arguing something different. I didn't say we need to give Pat minutes. I just said I hope he can bounce back after his worst year as a pro into at least what he was in the past. I'm not trying to be a Pat stan here. Are you disagreeing that it'd be nice if he can at least recapture being a good defender and open three point shooter?

In the end, Pat will need to earn his minutes IMO, but it's not crazy to think he could beat out Okoro, Smith, or Huerter. We're committed to Pat a lot longer than those guys as well, so if he is playing them to a tie, we should play him over them. I wouldn't give him any entitlement minutes anymore, but it wouldn't shock me if he beats out some of these guys in camp.

[sco]

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Billy on Pat.

Other than the fact that Billy wants Patrick to be aggressive (which to me includes driving off the dribble = BAD), I think he hit the nail on the head. Certainly doesn't sound like PWill is getting starter minutes/role now or in the near future. I'm past the whole #4 and allstar potential thing. If he just becomes a very good defender and 3pt shooter, that would be a big win for us. Not worth the contract, but at least playable for 20 minutes a night.

[waffle]

if he plays 20+ minutes he should average 6+ boards. IT is what is required for someone who plays his position.

[drosestruts]

Depending what linups he plays with rebounds will be hard to come by. Vuc and Giddey are both very good rebounders.

I'd rather see opponents have a low fg% vs Pat (as he often guards the other teams best players) than arbitraily seeing him put up rebound numbers.

I think the main thing is people see Pat play with a lack of drive and then point to stats we can count like rebounding to criticize him.

I want a low OPP FG%, I want steals, I want deflections, I want to see him be able to convert at the rim on offense

If I were to rank my wish list of improvement for Pat, rebounds would be pretty far down the list.

Somewhere below - stop stepping out of bounds, and stop dribbling the ball off your foot

[GoBlue72391]

Even then, how much does low-volume catch-and-shoot 3s on wide open attempts with poor rebounding, low motor, and decent defense really help as opposed to playing someone like Essengue over him for development purposes and just giving more minutes to our glut of good bench guards + Okoro and maybe Smith?

I think that group could, and probably should, eat up most of his minutes. Even at his best, Pat struggled to make an impact on the game. At this point, I don't even care if he's technically better than some others, just play the guy who will impact the game.

I would probably have the rotation like this, and that's already tight with 11 guys:
PG Giddey 30
SG White 32
SF Okoro 20
PF Buzelis 28
C Vucevic 26
6 Dosunmu 22
7 Jones 22
8 Collins 20
9 Huerter 18
10 Smith 12
11 Essengue 10

Who deserves to have their minutes trimmed to get Pat in the rotation? We just traded for Okoro, so he's going to play, and Essengue needs some PT, whether deserved or not, for his development.

I know Pat WILL get minutes, but he shouldn't unless we're leaning heavily on 3 preseason games.

You seem to be arguing something different. I didn't say we need to give Pat minutes. I just said I hope he can bounce back after his worst year as a pro into at least what he was in the past. I'm not trying to be a Pat stan here. Are you disagreeing that it'd be nice if he can at least recapture being a good defender and open three point shooter?

In the end, Pat will need to earn his minutes IMO, but it's not crazy to think he could beat out Okoro, Smith, or Huerter. We're committed to Pat a lot longer than those guys as well, so if he is playing them to a tie, we should play him over them. I wouldn't give him any entitlement minutes anymore, but it wouldn't shock me if he beats out some of these guys in camp.

It'd be nice if his shooting and defense improved over last year, but I'd rather not give him enough minutes to even find out.

I think it's highly unlikely he beats out Okoro and/or Huerter. Smith is definitely possible, as he's not that good and doesn't have Billy's trust.

[Chi town]

My hope is Pat is good enough to be traded away for an expiring contract.

[sco]

After that 8 rb game, he followed it up with a 1 rb game. We can all deflate a little.

[Indomitable]

Is Pat by any chance related to Marvin Williams?

[WesPeace]

Depending what linups he plays with rebounds will be hard to come by. Vuc and Giddey are both very good rebounders.

I'd rather see opponents have a low fg% vs Pat (as he often guards the other teams best players) than arbitraily seeing him put up rebound numbers.

I think the main thing is people see Pat play with a lack of drive and then point to stats we can count like rebounding to criticize him.

I want a low OPP FG%, I want steals, I want deflections, I want to see him be able to convert at the rim on offense

If I were to rank my wish list of improvement for Pat, rebounds would be pretty far down the list.

Somewhere below - stop stepping out of bounds, and stop dribbling the ball off your foot

Exactly.. I dont mind if he has 2 rebs on average in like 18min, as Vooch, Giddey, Matas, Collins will get the majority of rebs, but he should be good defender and consistent on the offense, aggressive to the rim and solid 3pt shooter.

[dougthonus]

It'd be nice if his shooting and defense improved over last year, but I'd rather not give him enough minutes to even find out.

I think it's highly unlikely he beats out Okoro and/or Huerter. Smith is definitely possible, as he's not that good and doesn't have Billy's trust.

FWIW, I don't think you're underrating Pat, but overrating Okoro/Huerter. Those guys aren't very good. They were both viewed as bad contracts on their previous teams.

[Ice Man]

The issue is not about whether Pat's rebounds are needed for the team. It's about the signal that his lack of rebounding sends about his motor and BBIQ. For example, the 2023 Golden State Warriors didn't need Steph's rebounding, as they outrebounded their opponents on the season, but that didn't stop short, 34-year old Steph from getting 6.3 boards per 36, is more than Pat has ever had in a season.

Pat's lack of rebounding may not be harmful in and of themselves, but they indicate two unfixable problems: 1) A low motor, and 2) a shortage of basketball awareness.

[GoBlue72391]

It'd be nice if his shooting and defense improved over last year, but I'd rather not give him enough minutes to even find out.

I think it's highly unlikely he beats out Okoro and/or Huerter. Smith is definitely possible, as he's not that good and doesn't have Billy's trust.

FWIW, I don't think you're underrating Pat, but overrating Okoro/Huerter. Those guys aren't very good. They were both viewed as bad contracts on their previous teams.

I'm not saying Okoro is good, just that we just traded for him so he's surely going to play based off that alone. He's similar to Pat, maybe he's better, maybe he's worse, but his effort is better and that's enough for me to put him over Pat.

Huerter is pretty solid and easily better than Pat. He averaged 13 PPG for us and shot 37% from 3 on high volume. A couple years ago he averaged 15 and shot 40% from 3 on high volume.

[dougthonus]

I'm not saying Okoro is good, just that we just traded for him so he's surely going to play based off that alone. He's similar to Pat, maybe he's better, maybe he's worse, but his effort is better and that's enough for me to put him over Pat.

Historically, I'd say there's little difference in these guys. Maybe Okoro's energy is higher, but he's a crap shooter in comparison historically, and that has as much meaning as the effort. Okoro is probably coming off a better season, but these guys don't have some big historical gap. If you think Pat simply came into last year out of shape due to a foot injury that side lined him until training camp for like 8 months and couldn't maintain conditioning, then had a rough season and has since been able to get back into shape (and a lot of visual signs point to this being true) then there is every reason to think these are similar level guys.

Huerter is pretty solid and easily better than Pat. He averaged 13 PPG for us and shot 37% from 3 on high volume. A couple years ago he averaged 15 and shot 40% from 3 on high volume.

37% isn't all that great for a guy whose best asset is shooting. A year ago he shot 36% and last year he shot 34%, so quoting his two years ago number while ignoring two full seasons of bad to average shooting seems like a stretch to say that he's just going to be automatically good.

I'd give both Okoro and Huerter an edge on Pat entering camp, but I'd have very low confidence in both guys. It's not even remotely difficult to imagine either guy basically being unplayable given they are both one trick ponies that have been inconsistent in their trick.

[Chi town]

The issue is not about whether Pat's rebounds are needed for the team. It's about the signal that his lack of rebounding sends about his motor and BBIQ. For example, the 2023 Golden State Warriors didn't need Steph's rebounding, as they outrebounded their opponents on the season, but that didn't stop short, 34-year old Steph from getting 6.3 boards per 36, is more than Pat has ever had in a season.

Pat's lack of rebounding may not be harmful in and of themselves, but they indicate two unfixable problems: 1) A low motor, and 2) a shortage of basketball awareness.

Bingo. Spot on.

I’d say the most hopeful realistic development for Pat would be an improved motor and physicality on the defensive end and simply shooting more 3s at the 40% clip he has shot it at before.

His shot has looked quicker and smoother this preseason and he’s letting it fly off the dribble and in C+S. I could see him getting 5-6 per game if he gets mid 20s for mins.