Did Paxson REALLY want Ben Wallace for $15 mil per?

[Tommy Udo 6]

If the Bulls would have taken away the offer, Ben's agent Arn Tellum probably would have been pretty pissed, and he's somewhat of a "powerful agent" so I don't think that was an option.

Arn Tellum was Jerry Reinsdorf's college roomie & they are still close.

I believe the Wallace signing was another favor to his old buddy. Of course, JR expected Ben to contribute more to the Bulls than he has.

Paxson just follows Reinsdorf financial directions. The signing may not have been Paxson's idea - but he certainly didnt object strongly or talk JR out of it. A signing of that magnitude has to come from Reinsdorf

[Tommy Udo 6]

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Fixed.

Reports had the signing being a Reinsdorf move, I also remember Pax saying Tyson was gone regardless of them signing Ben

I think you are wrong. Paxson never said this publically. If no Ben or FA signing, we would have kept Tyson.

[Johnston797]

Arn Tellum was Jerry Reinsdorf's college roomie & they are still close.

What's your source on this? The only thing that Google shows is your past posts.

[Tommy Udo 6]

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What's your source on this? The only thing that Google shows is your past posts.

It has been reported many times in articles that must have gone in archive. Sam Smith has mentioned it many times as has McGraw.

E-mail Sam Smith or McGraw - they'll confirm.

I also remember it being mentioned when Reinsdorf gave Albert Belle that huge contract. Tellum was Belle's agent

[Johnston797]

Arn Tellum was Jerry Reinsdorf's college roomie

What college?



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jerry_reinsdorf.html

Reinsdorf graduated from George Washington University in Washington, D.C. and earned a law degree from Northwestern University after moving to Chicago in 1957

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arn_Tellem

Tellem is an alumnus of Haverford College, a liberal arts school outside of Philadelphia. He graduated from the highly ranked University of Michigan Law School, at Ann Arbor, in 1979

Tellem graduated in 1976 according to http://www.wmgllc.com/. Looks like he is at least 15 years younger than Reinsdorf.

[Johnston797]

Its clear that "the Bulls" intended to get Wallace, not make the Pistons match. There were reports, however, even when it happened that the move was driven by Reinsdorf and not Paxson.

At the time, there may have been reports that Reinsdorf helped facilitate the discussions, but I don't recall anything to the extent of "driven".

Right before Krause got fired, Krause supporters claimed more and more of the basketball decisions were Reinsdorf moves. I didn't but much credence in that either.

Reinsdorf does give financial boundaries but he is no Jerry Jones.

[DuckIII]

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At the time, there may have been reports that Reinsdorf helped facilitate the discussions, but I don't recall anything to the extent of "driven".

Right before Krause got fired, Krause supporters claimed more and more of the basketball decisions were Reinsdorf moves. I didn't but much credence in that either.

Reinsdorf does give financial boundaries but he is no Jerry Jones.

I'm just writing what I recall reading. I agree that he's no Jerry Jones. But I do think he steps in from time to time. It has been reported that his happened with both the Wallace signing and the Rose trade. You don't have to believe the reports. I don't know if I do or not. I'm just noting that such reports existed.

[Johnston797]

I'm just writing what I recall reading. I agree that he's no Jerry Jones. But I do think he steps in from time to time. It has been reported that his happened with both the Wallace signing and the Rose trade. You don't have to believe the reports. I don't know if I do or not. I'm just noting that such reports existed.

There has never been a credible report that Reinsdorf overruled his GM and forced a decision that the GM was not on board with.

ADD: For instance, on the Rose deal, it was reported that JR was said to want to do it and Krause didn't get on board until Pacers agreed to take Mercer rather than an expiring contract.

But there was no report that said Krause said "It's a bad deal".

[richard]

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I'm just writing what I recall reading. I agree that he's no Jerry Jones. But I do think he steps in from time to time. It has been reported that his happened with both the Wallace signing and the Rose trade. You don't have to believe the reports. I don't know if I do or not. I'm just noting that such reports existed.

i remember listening to the radio after the 2004 draft, and hearing that if emeka okafor had fallen to the 3rd pick, paxson had orders from reinsdorf not to take him.

[Kneepad]

i remember listening to the radio after the 2004 draft, and hearing that if emeka okafor had fallen to the 3rd pick, paxson had orders from reinsdorf not to take him.

And of course everything you hear on the radio these days is true.

[Johnston797]

And of course everything you hear on the radio these days is true.

You can't be too careful these days. Shoot, maybe McGraw did say that Reinsdorf and Tellum were college roommates after seeing Bulls6 post that so many times.

[dougthonus]

The Bulls organization definitely wanted Ben Wallace.

Whether you put that on Paxson or Reinsdorf is really irrelevant. If it was Paxson then Paxson is really in charge and made a bad move. If it was Reinsdorf, then he can overrule the GM, and it was still a bad move. Either way, whomever had the real power here made that decision and it was a bad one.

I suppose it's probably better if it was all on Paxson seeing as that if it was on Reinsdorf, then you'd have Paxson generally making good decisions and Reinsdorf butting in and making a bad one which would then undermine my confidence in the team ever doing well. However, I think that the most likely scenario was that Paxson wanted Wallace and Reinsdorf agreed. My guess is that when they get to 60 million dollar figures the deals are talked about collaboratively. It may be that Paxson couldn't make such a move without Reinsdorf's approval, but my guess is that if Paxson said "Trust me Jerry, this guy is done." that Reinsdorf sure as heck wasn't going to force the move through anyway.

[DuckIII]

There has never been a credible report that Reinsdorf overruled his GM and forced a decision that the GM was not on board with.

ADD: For instance, on the Rose deal, it was reported that JR was said to want to do it and Krause didn't get on board until Pacers agreed to take Mercer rather than an expiring contract.

But there was no report that said Krause said "It's a bad deal".

I never claimed any of that stuff. There is a difference between being the driving force in getting something done vs. coming in and overruling someone who objects to that thing being done.

And again, I'm not saying that I believe the reports one way or another. I'm just saying they exist.

[Johnston797]

I never claimed any of that stuff. There is a difference between being the driving force in getting something done vs. coming in and overruling someone who objects to that thing being done.

Good. Of course, I'm sure you agree that others here have claimed or strongly imply that JR has overruled his GM.

[Kneepad]

The Bulls organization definitely wanted Ben Wallace.

Whether you put that on Paxson or Reinsdorf is really irrelevant. If it was Paxson then Paxson is really in charge and made a bad move.

You know, I think with perfect hindsight it's all so easy to say signing Wallace was a bad move. But let's try to keep some sense of perspective.

At the time of the Wallace signing, the Bulls were in dire need of a solid big man. Tyson Chandler was NOT the player he is today for the Hornets. Joakim Noah and Aaron Gray were NOT on the roster. Tyrus Thomas had just been drafted and was considered a project. The Bulls were getting killed in the post. Fans were clamoring for the Bulls to acquire an established big man. Ben Wallace was clearly the best free agent big man that season (if not the best free agent outright). The Bulls had cap space they were going to lose if they didn't use it that summer. Someone else mentioned that Wallace was considered the heart and soul of the Pistons, a division rival. Signing him was a chance not only to improve your team but also severely hurt a division rival. Everyone knew at the time the Bulls were overpaying, but given all of the above, it was still generally considered a good move.

The only downside, really, is the one that it turns out has bitten the Bulls in the backside-- the aging of Wallace and subsequent decline in his play.

[Rerisen]

Oh, I'm sure we wanted him.

Even though his decline was obvious in the stats, people thought he still had enough left in the tank. This board was mostly jubilation at the signing with only a few dissenters and a couple lukewarm.

I think the organization clearly overrated how close this Bulls team was to the final step. And Wallace was the best FA available after all. He had won a title, and was to be seen as that missing veteran that not only had the experience but would also bring confidence (ha) and lead by his example of toughness and energy (curse our naivety!).

And of course the double whammy, of hurting, nay crippling, the key conference power in Detroit. Which also didn't happen.

I think the desire of the organization to sign a big name might have played some part in the willingness to pay so much as well. After bumbling around with Krause so many times and failing to get the big catch, they probably figured this would set some groundwork that the team wanted and could get a big star again.

[DuckIII]

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Good. Of course, I'm sure you agree that others here have claimed or strongly imply that JR has overruled his GM.

Not really. But I'll take your word for it.

[dougthonus]

You know, I think with perfect hindsight it's all so easy to say signing Wallace was a bad move. But let's try to keep some sense of perspective.

At the time of the Wallace signing, the Bulls were in dire need of a solid big man. Tyson Chandler was NOT the player he is today for the Hornets. Joakim Noah and Aaron Gray were NOT on the roster. Tyrus Thomas had just been drafted and was considered a project. The Bulls were getting killed in the post. Fans were clamoring for the Bulls to acquire an established big man. Ben Wallace was clearly the best free agent big man that season (if not the best free agent outright). The Bulls had cap space they were going to lose if they didn't use it that summer. Someone else mentioned that Wallace was considered the heart and soul of the Pistons, a division rival. Signing him was a chance not only to improve your team but also severely hurt a division rival. Everyone knew at the time the Bulls were overpaying, but given all of the above, it was still generally considered a good move.

The only downside, really, is the one that it turns out has bitten the Bulls in the backside-- the aging of Wallace and subsequent decline in his play.

Whether or not there were valid, logical reasons for making the move is not relative to whether it was a good move or a bad move.

It has turned out to be one of the worst free agent signings in recent memory. It has been an absolutely, atrociously, horrible, awful move. Especially given how clear it is that the Bulls are going to be a penny pinching franchise. If they were going to spend money in a fair ratio to the amount of money they make vs the rest of the league then it wouldn't be magnified so much.

This isn't to say that the move wasn't made with some logical reasons. I'm not saying that the decision to make the move was nearly as bad as the move turned out to be. Expecting Wallace to decline from defensive MVP type player (even if he won it largely on notoriety rather than ability) to guy who is lazy, doesn't give a crap, and is a below average big man couldn't have been anticipated. I think even his largest detractors figured he'd not reach that level until year 3 or 4 and that he would have a more gradual decline.

I don't feel as bad about the decision to bring in Wallace as I do about how poorly it has turned out if that makes sense. I can see the logical reasons for it, especially given how Chandler absolutely whithered his last season here. If we were going to play moneyball (which it seems that we are) then it was a bad move regardless though. You don't overpay a 33 year old guy if your franchise is ultra cheap. You can't make signings like you're the Yankees if your payroll is really in the Tampa Devil Ray range. It seems apparent in retrospect that the Bulls did this. They knew they were cheap, and they knew they needed to save money for Gordon/Deng, but they didn't do it.

I never believed it would happen before, but Ben Wallace will likely cost us Ben Gordon in the off season.

[DuckIII]

I never believed it would happen before, but Ben Wallace will likely cost us Ben Gordon in the off season.

How much would Ben Gordon need to be demanding (or offered from another team) for that to happen, do you think?

[dougthonus]

How much would Ben Gordon need to be demanding (or offered from another team) for that to happen, do you think?

I'm not sure, and clearly it's only going to be one factor if he leaves. However, having Ben Wallace on the roster gives us very little room to pay/overpay other players.