It's time to watch Paxson, not blame him.

[kyrv]

Incorrect, it

[coldfish]

Neusch:

I pretty much agree with everything you have said. My point was just a general one in that I think Paxson was trying to get players that satisfied Skiles specifically but also an overall goal of winning with defense and rebounding.

I just think he took it to a ridiculous and possible unintentional extreme.

[JeremyB0001]

Good post Doug. I find the sentiment that we entered the season with a horribly flawed roster atrocious because no one made persuasive arguments that the team massively overachieved last season prior to the start of this season.

Pax assembled a very strong roster and did a decent job at damage control when he eliminated a big problem by firing Skiles. The one place where I do blame him is for handing the job over to Skiles' right hand man without providing any guidelines or restrictions.

[kyrv]

Good post Doug. I find the sentiment that we entered the season with a horribly flawed roster atrocious because no one made persuasive arguments that the team massively overachieved last season prior to the start of this season.

Pax assembled a very strong roster and did a decent job at damage control when he eliminated a big problem by firing Skiles. The one place where I do blame him is for handing the job over to Skiles' right hand man without providing any guidelines or restrictions.

One of the 'problems' I think is that was a player Paxson was taught and believed that GM's should not be seen or heard. However Krause had a HoF coach and HoF players, so that doesn't compare to the Bulls situation.

Paxson's butt is on the line - he may be extended or fired based on what he does with this roster. I would personally want to be able to evaluate the team, and if Paxson does not, that's on him.

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



One of the 'problems' I think is that was a player Paxson was taught and believed that GM's should not be seen or heard. However Krause had a HoF coach and HoF players, so that doesn't compare to the Bulls situation.

Paxson's butt is on the line - he may be extended or fired based on what he does with this roster. I would personally want to be able to evaluate the team, and if Paxson does not, that's on him.

Depends on what the GM is being seen or heard for. Most GM's would make for BAD coachs, and shouldn't pretend to know how to coach same goes for coach's who think they should be GM's.

I believe one of the biggest most recent mistakes that Pax has made is that he is stating one thing publically and allowing his current coach to do the oppisite.

If the coach doesn't share the vision of the GM, then the GM should find a coach who shares his vision....Pax looks like an idiot right now because he is saying one thing while the and his coach does another.

[JeremyB0001]

If the coach doesn't share the vision of the GM, then the GM should find a coach who shares his vision....Pax looks like an idiot right now because he is saying one thing while the and his coach does another.

That's very easy to say and extremely difficult to do in the midst of a season. IMO, that's theoretically one of the benefits of going with an interim coach: you don't have to hand over the reigns completely.

I do agree that if Pax meant what he said in interviews in the wake of Skiles' firing, he shouldn't have given Boylan complete authority even though the two obviously had some differing opinions.

[topper09]

I do not agree with this. I was at that state two years ago when the Bulls were exposed to have major holes in their team that needed to be addressed. Sorry, Paxson had two full season to pull the trigger on a deal or sign the pieces that fit.

Like I said, I was at the same stage you're in now, two years ago, and personally growing sick and tired of it. I blame Paxson for this team why? Because he's the manager that needs to fit the pieces together to make this team rise above all the obstacles. He hasn't done that, he deserves to be fired also.

so you've run out of patience, even though the team recovered from two years ago to win more games than they the prevous two years. didn't they go, 47, 41, 49? which begs the question; what deal do you think he "missed out on"? and since you nor i know what was on the table for gasol or KG, please don't rehash what you don't know. i already know what you don't know. also, if you can recall, name me a gm that's been removed for his team finishing around .500 (which is about where i think the bulls will end up).

sorry to disappoint but paxson's not close to getting fired; he's going to get every opportunity to right the ship, and reinsdorf is right in allowing it.

and here's betting you'll be back on the bandwagon (head cheerleader?) when the team resurrects itself.

It's not the fact that I'm looking for the Bulls to somehow, someway make their appearance in a rediculously bad Eastern conference. It's the fact that while other GM's like Ainge, Dumars, Domonique, even Jordan and Isiah are trying to get better as a team to try and sign/trade for pieces of the puzzle that make sense.. Paxson sits on his behind and is content to be just an average team when the entire world knows what kind of player and positions they need!!

To me as a fan, this is not good enough. I can care less what crack head Reinsdorf thinks about it. I can care less what everybody else thinks about it. From a fans perspective, Paxson is not making the right moves.

Unless Paxson finally wakes up and realizes that changes needed to happen 2 years ago (the clock is still ticking), and gets the pieces of the puzzle, he will always be a failure as a GM.

[JeremyB0001]

Paxson sits on his behind and is content to be just an average team when the entire world knows what kind of player and positions they need!!

If you're aware of deals that transform the team into a huge winner overnight, speak up, don't keep them to yourself.

[Jo Jo English]

-= original quote snipped =-



To me as a fan, this is not good enough. I can care less what crack head Reinsdorf thinks about it. I can care less what everybody else thinks about it. From a fans perspective, Paxson is not making the right moves.

What moves (I assume trades) did he not make that he should have? Also, how are you aware of the specifics of these trades when they are not available to the average Bulls fan?

[gmoney2]

Yeah, Paxon's ultra-conservative gm'ing is frustrating as hell, but standing Pax just might be what we need. With Gordon and Deng having very mediocre year, the chance of another team giving them a ridiculous contract at this point is almost nil. That being the case, we might be able to sign them to a reasonable contract unlike mistake Pax made in overpaying Kirk. We'll get a lotto pick, which may or may not produce that superstar player that we so desperately need. But that lotto pick, coupled with either a combination of Noah, Tyrus, or even Deng or Gordon (if we sign them to a reasonable contract) would be valuable trade pieces.

Remember folks, Krause got impatient and traded away Brand and took a chance on Tyson thinking he and Curry would be the next KG and Shaq. Then he compounded the error wanting to win now by trading away Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose. Krause set the rebuilding process back years by being impatient.

Hopefully, history won't repeat itself.

[theanimal23]

I posted this in today's game thread:



And it won't be John Paxson a guy without any testicles.

I know Doug made a thread, but it is John Paxson's fault. The players are not performing but he assemebled every damn piece on this team. Its his players. Its his coaches. Its his fault along with the coach and the players.

There is no other way around it. Every move he has done (or not) has an affect on where this team is at -- Chemistry, Skill, Mentallly, etc

Everyone is at fault in the organization. No one is getting a free pass. And he is gonna get more of a blame from me if the Kids don't start playing as soon as tomorrow for heavy minutes. I don't care anymore.

[theanimal23]

Yeah, Paxon's ultra-conservative gm'ing is frustrating as hell, but standing Pax just might be what we need. With Gordon and Deng having very mediocre year, the chance of another team giving them a ridiculous contract at this point is almost nil. That being the case, we might be able to sign them to a reasonable contract unlike mistake Pax made in overpaying Kirk. We'll get a lotto pick, which may or may not produce that superstar player that we so desperately need. But that lotto pick, coupled with either a combination of Noah, Tyrus, or even Deng or Gordon (if we sign them to a reasonable contract) would be valuable trade pieces.

Remember folks, Krause got impatient and traded away Brand and took a chance on Tyson thinking he and Curry would be the next KG and Shaq. Then he compounded the error wanting to win now by trading away Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose. Krause set the rebuilding process back years by being impatient.

Hopefully, history won't repeat itself.

I agree we should not make a dumbass move, but we need to evaluate guys. At the least play the guys he touted in the draft. I mean look at the damn results from playing the Vets. It can't get worse.

[theanimal23]

I would like to add: I do not want Pax fired (yet). I'll give him another year or two. But I do not think people should shy away from blaming him. I think he highly deserves a lot of blame.

[bagsboy]

Why do peolpe blame Pax?
How could Pax know this team needed points inside?
How could Pax know this team has three short guards?
How could Pax know that Wallace can't score and TT is a offensive project?
How could Pax know teams need points off the bench?
How can Pax be expected to replace Curry's points in only three short years?
How can you expect Pax to get something for a seven foot center who is getting 12pts and 12 rb per when put next to a PF who can score?
How can you expect Pax to know Wallace plays is better next to a good offensive PF (Rasheed) and Chandler better next to West and his 19 pts per?

It is the coach. It is the palyers. It isn't the roster. Teams don't like scoring down low. Every team is trying to find three short gaurds just like Pax.

[kyrv]

-= original quote snipped =-



Depends on what the GM is being seen or heard for. Most GM's would make for BAD coachs, and shouldn't pretend to know how to coach same goes for coach's who think they should be GM's.

I believe one of the biggest most recent mistakes that Pax has made is that he is stating one thing publically and allowing his current coach to do the oppisite.

If the coach doesn't share the vision of the GM, then the GM should find a coach who shares his vision....Pax looks like an idiot right now because he is saying one thing while the and his coach does another.

I agree. And it's not like Pax mentioned it once in passing. It has been a consistent and running theme, since Thomas was drafted in Tyrus' case.

On Pax looking like an idiot - well frankly, yes, he does. If the coach was doing the opposite of what the coach said, and winning, that would be one thing. First Skiles bent Pax over the table, now he has a freakin' interim GM playing the vets, and losing, against Paxson's stated wishes...and all we get are more vet led losses.

I've never called Paxson an idiot but I can't disagree, he looks like an idiot in this situation.

[Rerisen]

Paxson has been more good than bad. But time is running out on the holes this team has had for 3 years.

All I know is if you put Aldridge and Brewer on this team, it looks radically different. Not just specifically from a talent perspective (because I'm not convinced L.A. is some world beater) but just because the parts suddenly all fit together so much better.

Boylan is looking like a true disaster move as well. We might have had a ship in mutiny under Skiles, but at least the crazy captain knew where he was and had a direction to steer the ship in. The Bulls under Boylan are rudderless, drifting aimlessly and lost out to sea.

[Bulls69]

I've seen a lot of people really pissed about Paxson due to our poor play.

I don't think it's time to be pissed at Paxson. The poor play is not his fault. The poor play is the fault of players who have drastically underperformed their previously established ability levels. The additions to this years team (Joe Smith, Joakim Noah, and Aaron Gray) all look very good in their time (albeit limited for Noah and Gray). The problem is that previously established young veterans have inexplicably played considerably worse.

I don't blame Paxson for that, because there's no way to have predicted that. So the time to blame Paxson isn't now.

It is time to watch what he does. The team needs to be re-evaluated after this year from top to bottom. I don't think things will happen at the deadline, because at the deadline 2 types of teams make moves. Those selling off star players to rebuild (we aren't that team unless Ben Wallace or Joe Smith counts as star players), or the team selling off young pieces to get a star player to push for a title this year (we're definitely not that team either).

The time we can next really shake things up is the off season. We'll have a new coach to hire, and we'll be able to make trades without roster concerns as well as having Hinrich and Nocioni off of BYC deals and far more tradeable and making matching larger salaries far easier.

The time to call for Paxson's ouster as GM will be if he's ineffectual of making viable chances for this team next year and the team is still floundering around. My personal timeline is the end of the 08/09 season I want to feel good about our direction again.

Doug, I agreed with you but the ball is in Pax's court now because he built this team from the ground up so now he must make the repairs.

[Scott May]

The poor play is the fault of players who have drastically underperformed their previously established ability levels. . . .

I don't blame Paxson for that, because there's no way to have predicted that. So the time to blame Paxson isn't now.

I can't abide by this part of your argument, particularly with respect to Wallace.

Maybe I've misread your position on this since Wallace was signed, but I think you've been one of the few people on any of the boards to agree with my general take -- that Wallace was already in an appreciable decline his last couple of years with the Pistons, and that his first year with the Bulls was a borderline disaster.

Now maybe his implosion this year has been unusually abrupt and severe, and no, I don't have a "I Think Ben Wallace Is Going to Suck Balls This Season" thread to point to, but I think even the rosiest outlook for Wallace going into this season would have had him matching his statistical output from last season, hopefully with more consistency. At his age and with his mileage, a return to his DPOY form verges on pipedream, imo.

And while Wallace is at the core of the disintegration, let's not forget about the failure to extend Deng and Gordon, and the race for Kobe. Paxson had a hand in all of those developments, and imo, those developments have had a big hand in why Gordon and Deng haven't performed at the level we hoped they would.

While I pretty strongly disagree with the decision to fire Skiles, I can live with it. I can't live with Pax's failing to make Boylan follow through on fixing what Skiles had supposedly broken.

I agree that now is not the time for rash measures, and sure, let's keep redrawing the line in the sand for Pax and give him another full off-season and season. But any honest assessment of our current predicament can't absolve him completely.

[coldfish]

I hate to speak for Doug, but I think he may agree with this.

I have thought Wallace sucked for quite some time. IMO, my opinion was low enough of him that I didn't really think that him playing poorly would affect the team that much as I anticipated him getting 30 or less minutes per night.

So, in summary, I didn't think Wallace sucking would impact the Bulls' ability to win 58 games this year.

I'm not sure Paxson felt the same way, so that may be a moot point, but it reasonably can explain Doug's position. The people who have impacted this dramatic fall off are Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, etc. in my mind because I didn't expect them to suck this bad.

[Scott May]

I hate to speak for Doug, but I think he may agree with this.

I have thought Wallace sucked for quite some time. IMO, my opinion was low enough of him that I didn't really think that him playing poorly would affect the team that much as I anticipated him getting 30 or less minutes per night.

So, in summary, I didn't think Wallace sucking would impact the Bulls' ability to win 58 games this year.

I'm not sure Paxson felt the same way, so that may be a moot point, but it reasonably can explain Doug's position. The people who have impacted this dramatic fall off are Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, etc. in my mind because I didn't expect them to suck this bad.

I should have clarified this a little better.

I've said for some time now that Skiles's Bulls were kind of a fragile thing -- their calling card, in a nutshell, was playing regular season games with playoff level intensity.

I sincerely believe that Wallace basically destroyed that mindset. He talks a great game about always going all out, and certainly looks the part, but he hasn't been a balls to the wall player for a long time now. He doesn't like to play uptempo, he picks his spots for floorburns, etc.

Skiles was willing to confront Wallace about headbands, all the reports state that he never addressed Ben's lackluster play and piss-poor effort last season or this season. I think this was weak of Skiles, but in many understandable.

The youngs saw this at the same time that Skiles was riding their asses per usual. They got discouraged, and they started putting out a 98% effort, not a 99% one. That's all it takes to start getting your ass beaten a lot when a team wins so many games at the margins.

The bottom line is that this org has to flat-out nut up when it comes to Wallace. He is a spot bench guy AT BEST right now. And if he's not willing to accept that role, the org has to be prepared to Tim Thomas or Jalen Rose him.

Wallace is a douche, sure. But Pax is the GM, and he has not has his finger on the pulse of this particular issue.