PG: Can't stop, won't stop

The Evidence · Post #201 » by **The Evidence** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:08 am

Anyone who complained about the Bulls being "unwatchable" is not allowed to complain about the 4 game win streak.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1644470

PaKii94 · Post #202 » by **PaKii94** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:09 am

Indomitable wrote:
GameBredAPBT wrote:
AKfanatic wrote:If Niko has figured it out, things get tough.
It’s easy to say trade him, but if this Niko is reality he’s worth more than what teams have seemed to give for him.

This seems to be the Niko you get when he’s given more responsibility dating back to his rookie season.

It’s a damn shame the Bulls didn’t roll with Jimmy, Niko, and guys like McDermott/Valentine last season.....

Niko didn't play well alongside Jimmy. None of those guys did. Mirotic in particular plays well inside of a fluid fast paced offense. During his tenure as The Guy, Butler didn't raise up those around him.

Butler was good for dribbling down the clock and pass it to you to protect his shooting numbers.

You cannot blame this on Jimmy. These players obviously put in work over the summer. Actually, maybe we have Jimmy to thank for that. He showed that dedicated nonstop selfimprovement can produce results

Post #203 » by **Rerisen** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:09 am

Shill wrote:
Rerisen wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:
You can't possibly blame the front office for young players playing hard and wanting to win games.

You can blame them for doing a rebuild backwards. You don't start by acquiring 3 players that are going to help you win, but aren't likely to be your franchise guy.

So they should’ve gotten *less* value for Jimmy?

I know you were against the deal, but if they were going to deal him, I think the return was good.

How many times do I have to explain this, the first big piece that makes you win should ideally be your franchise player. After a year of being horrible getting you a top 3 pick.

Because once you start winning with lesser players, your odds to get a superstar start dwindling. And then its pointless to blow up a .500 team if you are just going to rebuild a Skiles like team of average-above average grinders.

At the rate the Bulls are going - even with just the young guys we are going to keep - we will likely only get 1 swing at a franchise player next summer, and then combined with that player, probably won't be picking in the top 5 again, because we'll have too much talent.

So they better not miss landing a star with that pick. But every game they win right now is hurting that chance.

WindyCityBorn · Post #204 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 am

Rerisen wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:
So, during the summer people were blaming the front office for not getting enough value for Butler.

Now, the front office is to blame for getting too much value for Butler.

It's inherently flawed to trade for 3 roster players and then also announce at the press conference that your plan is to build through the draft.

Especially if you are going to keep players like RoLo and Niko.

So what did your want for Butler? Or did you just want to keep him?

madvillian · Post #205 » by **madvillian** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 am

just starting this thread and missed the last 2 minutes of the game -- wow that step back crossover rainbow from Dunn was a dead ringer for Isiah Thomas -- the one us old farts remember.

Watch on YouTube

Stratmaster · Post #206 » by **Stratmaster** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 am

Ice Man wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:people keep saying this... and we keep pointing out that the Bulls have ALWAYS performed better with Niko on the court. Especially when he is allowed to actually play and not just roam the arc.

You're not quoting plus/minus, are you? But it is true.

Why yes, yes I am. For 5 man groupings which I have always been a proponent of and never scoffed at. It's the individual +/- I giggle at you guys over.

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TheSuzerain · Post #207 » by **TheSuzerain** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 am

Red Larrivee wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:It's inherently flawed to trade for 3 roster players and then also announce at the press conference that your plan is to build through the draft.

How is it flawed? Dunn was the 5th pick overall the year before. Markkanen was the 7th pick this year. They acquired three players still on their rookie deals. "Building through the draft" is just code for "Our team is inexperienced as hell and we expect to have a top pick because of it."

It's flawed because if you're building through the draft, you want lotto balls. Yet your young players playing well will subtract lotto balls. Rebuilding should be about raising the ceiling. In the situation that GarPax has designed, the success of one plank of the rebuild directly harms the other plank. This lowers the ceiling of this rebuild.

Warren G · Post #208 » by **Warren G** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 am

PaKii94 wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
GameBredAPBT wrote:
Niko didn't play well alongside Jimmy. None of those guys did. Mirotic in particular plays well inside of a fluid fast paced offense. During his tenure as The Guy, Butler didn't raise up those around him.

Butler was good for dribbling down the clock and pass it to you to protect his shooting numbers.

You cannot blame this on Jimmy. These players obviously put in work over the summer. Actually, maybe we have Jimmy to thank for that. He showed that dedicated nonstop selfimprovement can produce results

I think this is a little backwards, I think this team is showing Jimmy that if you listen to this coach you truly can become more than the sum of the parts.

Aka teamwork makes the dream work when you're not the lead star of the Jimmy Show™

Indomitable · Post #209 » by **Indomitable** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 am

PaKii94 wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
GameBredAPBT wrote:
Niko didn't play well alongside Jimmy. None of those guys did. Mirotic in particular plays well inside of a fluid fast paced offense. During his tenure as The Guy, Butler didn't raise up those around him.

Butler was good for dribbling down the clock and pass it to you to protect his shooting numbers.

You cannot blame this on Jimmy. These players obviously put in work over the summer. Actually, maybe we have Jimmy to thank for that. He showed that dedicated nonstop selfimprovement can produce results

Jimmy did have a bad habit of dribbling down the clock and pass the ball to protect his numbers. Jimmy was a very aware player. I can say what I want and you can defend Hollywood. I am still glad he is gone.

wonderboy2 · Post #210 » by **wonderboy2** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:12 am

Man Niko has to be the most annoying player of all time. Dude used to piss me off and have me shaking my head when I actually wanted the bulls to win. Now this guy is playing like a 6’10 Prime Manu Ginobli out there lol. The bulls were on the verge of loosing and Niko basically took over the game and got the bulls a win. F*** you Niko, F*** you. I’m kidding, I’m actually happy that he is figuring it out. Even when Mirotic would have his hot stretches in years past, he did not look this desisive and confident. Maybe watching Markkanen play really sparked Niko.

WindyCityBorn · Post #211 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:12 am

BeatDaCavs420 wrote:FYI winning just helps Gar/Pax/Fred

I don't know how anyone can see how this is good lol

I like Hoiberg and I hope he sticks around.

StunnerKO · Post #212 » by **StunnerKO** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:12 am

Read on Twitter

Post #213 » by **Rerisen** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:13 am

Jvaughn wrote:If their plan is anything other than getting a top pick, then that just leads back to my original point: they have to go. They can't contend, so if we're not tanking, then their goal is basketball hell. Sitting outside the playoffs drafting talent that isn't good enough to change their position.

Ayup. Anyone that wanted to blow it up, who is now happy we've won 4 straight.... just mind-boggling.

MC3 · Post #214 » by **MC3** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:13 am

It's time to bring them back

https://streamable.com/1jiyc

Stratmaster · Post #215 » by **Stratmaster** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:13 am

Rerisen wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:
bulliedog8 wrote:Came to say this. Legit the worst front office in the league. When they want to win, they put a tragic team together. When they want to lose, they put a stacked team together. Its crazy

You can't possibly blame the front office for young players playing hard and wanting to win games.

You can blame them for doing a rebuild backwards. You don't start by acquiring 3 players that are going to help you win, but aren't likely to be your franchise guy.

Now they are going to have to possibly make a dump trade, lose Niko for little value, to correct this from going 'on' track, if not more people.

Yeah they should have done it like Hinkie so they could be .500 in 4 or 5 seasons. I don't have green font available... on my phone... sorry.

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TheSuzerain · Post #216 » by **TheSuzerain** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:14 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
Rerisen wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:It's inherently flawed to trade for 3 roster players and then also announce at the press conference that your plan is to build through the draft.

Especially if you are going to keep players like RoLo and Niko.

So what did your want for Butler? Or did you just want to keep him?

If we assume that no one will part with a young piece with superstar potential,then future picks are the ideal form of compensation.

Someone like Zach Lavine (expiring contract, lacks star potential) is the exact opposite of the type of assets that should have been sought.

MC3 · Post #217 » by **MC3** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:14 am

StunnerKO wrote:

Read on Twitter

reminded me when rose had cold nights and yet he still nailed daggers at the end.

Stratmaster · Post #218 » by **Stratmaster** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:15 am

Red Larrivee wrote:
Rerisen wrote:You can blame them for doing a rebuild backwards. You don't start by acquiring 3 players that are going to help you win, but aren't likely to be your franchise guy.

So, during the summer people were blaming the front office for not getting enough value for Butler.

Now, the front office is to blame for getting too much value for Butler.

well put. When people don't want you to win... it's hard to win.

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Red Larrivee · Post #219 » by **Red Larrivee** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:16 am

TheSuzerain wrote:It's flawed because if you're building through the draft, you want lotto balls. Yet your young players playing well will subtract lotto balls. Rebuilding should be about raising the ceiling. In the situation that GarPax has designed, the success of one plank of the rebuild directly harms the other plank. This lowers the ceiling of this rebuild.

Paxson expected the Bulls to get lottery balls and they are still probable to. Trading for future picks would've only made the rebuild even more skeptical. Picks guarantee losing but they don't guarantee a brighter future.

madvillian · Post #220 » by **madvillian** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:17 am

Red Larrivee wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:I think people forget that having the worst record does not equal no.1 pick.

Yep.

The last 3 winners of the draft lottery had the worst record in the league, which is tied for the longest streak in the lottery's history. We're probably overdue for some variance this year. It's very possible the Bulls could have the worst record and end up at 4.

stop this madness. There's no "overdue for variance" (casino would love you) --it's probability. You. want. the. best. odds. And, most critically, the worst record cannot fall below 4 AND has an almost 50% chance of being top 2.

That's what you have to know. No **** "the worst record doesn't usually get the 1st pick" -- it's 24% odds. So 1/4. Tell us something we don't know.

You want to suck. You DO NOT want to be around 5 or 6. 4 would be bad enough. We need to suck, bottom three at absolute worst.