Trade Thread: Armchair GMs welcomed

[Repeat 3-peat]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

[kulaz3000]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

We have guards who are good defender put poor offensive players already, in Harrison and Dunn. Why do we add another to that list?

[Repeat 3-peat]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

We have guards who are good defender put poor offensive players already, in Harrison and Dunn. Why do we add another to that list?

To me it's buying low on prospects that are young and have some type of athletic upside to hopefully develop.

[kulaz3000]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

We have guards who are good defender put poor offensive players already, in Harrison and Dunn. Why do we add another to that list?

To me it's buying low on prospects that are young and have some type of athletic upside to hopefully develop.

I understand that, and don't disagree with that approach, but my issue is, we already have 2 players who are relatively young in front of him who play a similar way how are we then going to have time to groom all those players? We are already struggling to give development minutes to all the younger prospects on our team as is, adding to that would be a waste of time in my opinion.

[pipfan]

I have thought about FrankN-could push Dunn to be better, or push him out. We could use 2019 cap space. NY wants to clear for 2 max deals (I think KD/Irving or Walker is possible for them)

Payne/Lopez for FrankN/Lee/Thomas

Bulls could still get max 2019 cap space if possible, and we add some tough vets in Lee and Thomas. We could also move Holiday to a contender with Portis and take back some 2019 salary/pick.

Next year we are
Dunn/FrankN/Archi
Lavine/Lee/Valentine
2019 #1 pick/Hutchinson/Thomas
Lauri/Parker
Carter/Vet FA/Felicio

NY frees up $23 million in 2019 cap space, and ends up paying Cousins and someone else

[sco]

Frank has been disappointing both as a playmaker and as a scorer. They tried to move him to SF without much success...reminds me of MCW. He's young, but has a long ways to go.

[sco]

Maybe Warriors want RoLo?

https://theathletic.com/688386/2018/12/02/after-damian-jones-pectoral-tear-will-the-warriors-add-another-center/

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nba/basketball-player-news/

[Axolotl]

Maybe Warriors want RoLo?

https://theathletic.com/688386/2018/12/02/after-damian-jones-pectoral-tear-will-the-warriors-add-another-center/

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nba/basketball-player-news/

They might have use for RoLo, but who would come back this way? I'm not all that familiar with GSW's roster/salary/contract construction behind the top guys.

[sco]

Maybe Warriors want RoLo?

https://theathletic.com/688386/2018/12/02/after-damian-jones-pectoral-tear-will-the-warriors-add-another-center/

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nba/basketball-player-news/

They might have use for RoLo, but who would come back this way? I'm not all that familiar with GSW's roster/salary/contract construction behind the top guys.

How about Bell (who seems to have fallen out of favor - otherwise, why would they need a RoLo)? I'd take Iggy or Livingston, but I think they are core. Heck, give me 3 guys I've never heard of and their 2019 1st.

[StunnerKO]

Fultz front

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[StunnerKO]

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[StunnerKO]

Steal him while his value is low

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[Belf]

Would you give up the chance of a top 5 pick if it meant a significantly better season (or 2) of development for Markannen/Carter/Dunn/LaVine?

The Clippers currently sit atop the Western conference. But the caveat is that they are only 5.5 games ahead of the 13th place team. A regression to the mean is certainly possible and any slippage could push them out of the playoff picture. Beyond that, I don’t think they have any illusions about their ability to beat the top teams in the West in a best of 7 series. They have a stable organization with an owner who has stated a desire to build a contender, a good proven head coach, a great city in LA, and enough money this summer to max out any FA they want. Add to that the fact that top FAs are publicly flirting with them (Both Durant and Kawhi listed them in their top 3 desired teams) and you have a perfect storm for a team looking to go "all in." If they are able to move Gallinari, Williams, and Bradley for expiring deals, then they actually gain 2 max level contract slots to convince stars to team up in FA. Perhaps they would be willing to give up this season to have the shot at a much better team next season?

Clippers get:
Parker, Lopez, Holiday, Payne ($42m)

Bulls get:
Danilo Gallinari, Lou Williams, Avery Bradley ($41.5m)

Why would the Bulls make this trade? Well quite simply we get the better players. That’s not even close for being up for debate. Of course, we take on years of salary for our trouble. Gallinari and Bradley both have 2019 money, and Williams contract runs through 2020. The upside is that we would actually be surrounding our young core players with competent NBA level supporting players. I believe this would GREATLY help their development. Further, the players we get would get slot in nicely to our current roster construction. Gallinari is a starter at SF for the Clippers and would come in to immediately be a starter on our wing. Bradley and Williams are high usage backups who would come in and be… high usage backups for us. No one should get butt hurt in terms of playing time. An easy transition is always good for players who are changing teams. Gallinari and Williams would add some much needed spacing and range to our roster while Bradley would come in with the defensive mentality that Parker, LaVine and others seem to be lacking. All 3 would offer good veteran mentoring for our young players. Next season all 3 of those players will still have value on the trade market to teams trying to go all in, so they should be easy to move for assets if desired or kept for expiring contract FA reasons.

The move would also open up playing time for our core guys. With Lopez and Parker gone the minutes rotation for our bigs becomes much clearer. Markannen, Carter, and Portis get 20-30m apiece with Felicio spelling them as needed for 10-12 minutes a night. Gallinari and Hutchison split wing duties. It also opens up a huge array of small ball lineups for us. Dunn and Archie get to be the primary ball handlers with LaVine as a nominal 3rd in normal lineups, but I would be most excited about the ability to run some seriously powerful 3 guard lineups.

You get a nice "build you own" small ball lineup with 3 of:
Defensive Guards: Dunn, Bradley, Harrison, Archie
Offensive Guards: LaVine, Williams, Blakeney

With bigs of:
PF Gallinari/Portis
C Markannen

That’s some serious firepower there.

Want defensive bigs instead?
PF Markannen
C Carter/Felicio

Sample lineups:
Dunn, LaVine, Gallinari, Markannen, Carter (Starters)
Dunn, Williams, LaVine, Gallinari/Portis, Markannen (Small ball)
LaVine, Williams, Gallinari, Portis, Markannen (Spacing)
Dunn, Bradley, Gallinari, Markannen, Carter (Lockdown defense)
Archie, Harrison, Bradley, Portis, Felicio (Defensive backups)

Etc

Position by minutes allocation:
PG: Dunn, Archie, LaVine
SG: LaVine, Williams, Bradley, Harrison
SF: Gallinari, Hutchison, Bradley
PF: Markannen, Portis, Gallinari, Felicio,
C: Carter Jr, Portis, Felicio

The obvious con is that we would pretty much be giving up on getting a Top 5 lottery pick. I’m sure a lot of people would rather have that. But I think that there is a case to be made for building a stable organization at this point. We are getting to the point where our core players are up for their 2nd contracts. At some point you have to turn the corner and start trying to win. If Markannen and Carter "grow up" playing with Jabari Parker, Cam Payne, and other trash players then they most likely won’t reach their full potential (after all you can’t practice driving past your man on offense if Cam Payne throws the pass into row Z).

In conclusion, this could be a good chance to turn some really, really crappy players into way more valuable players. Those new players could contribute to our team right away and help to stabilize an organization and roster that is in desperate need of a steadying hand. That organizational stability and increase in on court performance should lead to more and better opportunities for our young players to grow their game and develop their skills. And if they don't work out we should be able to easily move them next year for more/better assets than we give up this year. The trade off most likely would be the chance to draft a Top 5 player in this upcoming draft.

[Ctownbulls]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

What reports are you reading? NY is not done with Frank he is 20 years old.

[Dan Z]

Steal him while his value is low

I don't think he'll get traded during the season. My guess is that he comes back later than the 3-6 weeks timetable and that it's closer to the trade deadline. That won't give teams enough time to evaluate him.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

What reports are you reading? NY is not done with Frank he is 20 years old.

Chris Vernon from The Ringer reported this on their podcast. He said everyone he talked to from the Knicks organization is that they're "out" on Frank.

[sco]

Wonder if the Knicks would trade Ntilikina for Payne lol.

NY are done with Frank per reports and the Bulls can take a young player that has some talent that maybe can be developed without the expectations of being a top 10 pick. Ntilikina's offense is really bad but his defense has intriguing upside.

What reports are you reading? NY is not done with Frank he is 20 years old.

Chris Vernon from The Ringer reported this on their podcast. He said everyone he talked to from the Knicks organization is that they're "out" on Frank.

Living in the NY area, I watch the Knicks (when I want to feel better about the Bulls). I was rooting for Frank to come around this year, but he's a PG who isn't a playmaker or a shooter. Essentially he's a 6'7 Shaq Harrison.

[MrSparkle]

Just wanted to hit pause, and look at the Bulls trades since "Fire GarPax" became a thing:

15/16

Rose/Holiday for Lopez/Grant/Calderon
Calderon/two 2nds for cap (towards Wade)
Bairstow for Dinwiddie (waived)
Snell for MCW
Taj/Doug/2nd for Payne/Morrow/Lauvergne

Basically besides the Dinwiddie trade (which was inconsequential because he was waived), IMO somehow Chicago managed to: lose cap space, lose picks, and lose the better player(s) in almost every trade. I think the OKC trade was a slight improvement in the short-term because Niko and Portis should've been playing more minutes, but obviously Payne was the worst player in the whole deal besides expiring Morrow. Again, we actually added Payne's long-term salary in that terrible trade, and lost a pick.

16/17

Jimmy/Patton for Lauri/Dunn/LaVine
Bell for cash
cap for Pondexter/2nd

The blockbuster saved a lot of face. GarPax couldn't afford to screw the Jimmy trade up. Otherwise, meh. Pondexter was waived, the pick was traded back (with Niko), and Vonleh was a rental.

17/18

Niko/2nd for Hutchinson/Asik/Nelson/Allen/2nd-pick-swap-rights
cap for Vonleh

We added a bunch of dead-salary (including next season with Asik) while sending out the best player. Was Hutchinson worth it? Both sides took a gamble, but perhaps GarPax undervalued Niko's impact, turning NOP into a top West team after the deadline.

Anyway. Point is, the FO still has a trend of making bad trades almost all the time... giving up more talent in trades... waiving the wrong guy (Dinwiddie)... and making mistake FA signings.

What's up with this?

[Ayman78]

Just wanted to hit pause, and look at the Bulls trades since "Fire GarPax" became a thing:

15/16

Rose/Holiday for Lopez/Grant/Calderon
Calderon/two 2nds for cap (towards Wade)
Bairstow for Dinwiddie (waived)
Snell for MCW
Taj/Doug/2nd for Payne/Morrow/Lauvergne

Basically besides the Dinwiddie trade (which was inconsequential because he was waived), IMO somehow Chicago managed to: lose cap space, lose picks, and lose the better player(s) in almost every trade. I think the OKC trade was a slight improvement in the short-term because Niko and Portis should've been playing more minutes, but obviously Payne was the worst player in the whole deal besides expiring Morrow. Again, we actually added Payne's long-term salary in that terrible trade, and lost a pick.

16/17

Jimmy/Patton for Lauri/Dunn/LaVine
Bell for cash
cap for Pondexter/2nd

The blockbuster saved a lot of face. GarPax couldn't afford to screw the Jimmy trade up. Otherwise, meh. Pondexter was waived, the pick was traded back (with Niko), and Vonleh was a rental.

17/18

Niko/2nd for Hutchinson/Asik/Nelson/Allen/2nd-pick-swap-rights
cap for Vonleh

We added a bunch of dead-salary (including next season with Asik) while sending out the best player. Was Hutchinson worth it? Both sides took a gamble, but perhaps GarPax undervalued Niko's impact, turning NOP into a top West team after the deadline.

Anyway. Point is, the FO still has a trend of making bad trades almost all the time... giving up more talent in trades... waiving the wrong guy (Dinwiddie)... and making mistake FA signings.

What's up with this?

You'd have to go back to the middle 2000s in order to properly evaluate Paxson as a talent acquisition manager. Also it seems as you've left out opportunity cost in your analysis. For example if the Bulls had kept Niko it is likely they would have fallen deeper into the lottery thus missing out on WCJ. Imho a big man duo of Markkanen and WCJ is more promising long-term than Markkanen and Nikola Mirotic.

[MrSparkle]

Just wanted to hit pause, and look at the Bulls trades since "Fire GarPax" became a thing:

15/16

Rose/Holiday for Lopez/Grant/Calderon
Calderon/two 2nds for cap (towards Wade)
Bairstow for Dinwiddie (waived)
Snell for MCW
Taj/Doug/2nd for Payne/Morrow/Lauvergne

Basically besides the Dinwiddie trade (which was inconsequential because he was waived), IMO somehow Chicago managed to: lose cap space, lose picks, and lose the better player(s) in almost every trade. I think the OKC trade was a slight improvement in the short-term because Niko and Portis should've been playing more minutes, but obviously Payne was the worst player in the whole deal besides expiring Morrow. Again, we actually added Payne's long-term salary in that terrible trade, and lost a pick.

16/17

Jimmy/Patton for Lauri/Dunn/LaVine
Bell for cash
cap for Pondexter/2nd

The blockbuster saved a lot of face. GarPax couldn't afford to screw the Jimmy trade up. Otherwise, meh. Pondexter was waived, the pick was traded back (with Niko), and Vonleh was a rental.

17/18

Niko/2nd for Hutchinson/Asik/Nelson/Allen/2nd-pick-swap-rights
cap for Vonleh

We added a bunch of dead-salary (including next season with Asik) while sending out the best player. Was Hutchinson worth it? Both sides took a gamble, but perhaps GarPax undervalued Niko's impact, turning NOP into a top West team after the deadline.

Anyway. Point is, the FO still has a trend of making bad trades almost all the time... giving up more talent in trades... waiving the wrong guy (Dinwiddie)... and making mistake FA signings.

What's up with this?

You'd have to go back to the middle 2000s in order to properly evaluate Paxson as a talent acquisition manager. Also it seems as you've left out opportunity cost in your analysis. For example if the Bulls had kept Niko it is likely they would have fallen deeper into the lottery thus missing out on WCJ. Imho a big man duo of Markkanen and WCJ is more promising long-term than Markkanen and Nikola Mirotic.

At the time, I thought the Niko trade was a tough pill to swallow, but it was a best-case scenario for a dead-end. In retrospect, I’m just asking the question — was the dead salary and cost of 2nd picks worth it? You could’ve just declined Niko’s option and come away with cap. Just like the Rose/NYK trade; we ended up adding long-term salary.

Pax’s technique of taking bad contracts and gambling on future picks worked great in his first few years, where he stole Deng and hosed Isiah. Just demonstrating that these dead-end/back-to-your-wall trades have been net negatives in the past few years (not to mention the Deng/SAC trade).

There’s something funky with the player scouting in these returns. Besides the Wolves trade, there has not been one good player acquistion in all the swaps. Maybe the trade markets dead. I dunno. But atleast in 04-06, even Piatkowski and Othella turned out to be decent rotation role-players.

Now they’re total dead-weights. Asik can’t play basketball. Was it too high a price taking a player with 0% chance of recovery? We gave up a red hot stretch big with a cheap non-guaranteed team option.