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OT: COVID-19 thread #2

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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#201 » by TheEndIsNigh » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:40 pm

Dresden wrote:I'm also just curious from a philosophical perspective, isn't a pandemic like this a good argument for why we sometimes NEED a strong federal govt. response, and why we need to fund things like the CDC, and why we need to have things like federal (or state) stockpiles of medical supplies? By the way, I'm not against many libertarian ideas- the amount of money our govt. spends on the military is just absolutely insane in my opinion- but I would think pandemics offer a strong counter argument to the idea that govt. should be as small as possible.


Yes, Obama led CDC had 1 million tests for H1N1 in 2 weeks after the outbreak began, and aggressive testing continues through out, minimizing the spread.

Trump has told the states they are on there own. And when governors purchase equipment it is being confiscated by the feds, and being given to preferred distributors to resell. Preference is then being given to states friendly to Trump.

It's amazing the difference an administration makes.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#202 » by dice » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:06 pm

EazyAsPie wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Downright painful to read what you just wrote. Seems you have alot of hate for everyone.


Was that comment necessary?

Let’s practice respect instead of hurling empty insults. I’m going to guess you’re a Trump fan, hence the guttural reaction with no substance contributing to the topic. You’ve done this more than once now and it’s not a good look.


Lol the irony. A person getting told by a liberal that he must be a Trump fan because he brings no substance to the topic while at the same time bringing exactly zero substance to the topic. #theperfectexampleofalib :lol:

uh...he wasn't commenting on the topic. he was commenting on the behavior of the poster. get the difference?

and guess what? not everybody that doesn't respect trump is a liberal. not by a longshot. the vast majority of humanity does not respect trump. including many that vote for him
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#203 » by EazyAsPie » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:13 am

dice wrote:
EazyAsPie wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
Was that comment necessary?

Let’s practice respect instead of hurling empty insults. I’m going to guess you’re a Trump fan, hence the guttural reaction with no substance contributing to the topic. You’ve done this more than once now and it’s not a good look.


Lol the irony. A person getting told by a liberal that he must be a Trump fan because he brings no substance to the topic while at the same time bringing exactly zero substance to the topic. #theperfectexampleofalib :lol:

uh...he wasn't commenting on the topic. he was commenting on the behavior of the poster. get the difference?

and guess what? not everybody that doesn't respect trump is a liberal. not by a longshot. the vast majority of humanity does not respect trump. including many that vote for him


No I don't. You gonna be mad when he wins again? Either way. Neither brought anything to this thread and I thought it was funny. I'm not bringing anything to this thread either but I'm not calling people out on it.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#204 » by PlayerUp » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:13 am

TheEndIsNigh wrote:Obama led CDC had 1 million tests for H1N1 in 2 weeks after the outbreak began, and aggressive testing continues through out, minimizing the spread.

It's amazing the difference an administration makes.


2 weeks or 5 months?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/politics/fact-checking-trumps-claim-on-swine-flu-tests/index.html

Says 5 months here.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#205 » by Dresden » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:13 am

"Asked when Americans can expect the country to begin reopening, Fauci said the critical issue will be whether states and localities will be able to "identify, isolate and contact-trace" news cases in real-time. Re-opening parts of the country and economy will happen on a "rolling" basis, he added.

"It is not going to be a light switch that we say, OK, it is now June, July or whatever, click, the light switch goes back on," Fauci said. "It's going to be depending where you are in the country, the nature of the outbreak that you have already experienced, and the threat of an outbreak that you may not have experienced."

"I think it's going to have to be something that is not one size fits all," he added, saying the process could begin next month.

Yeah, so where exactly are those tests???
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#206 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:14 am

Mech Engineer wrote:
Dresden wrote:I'm also just curious from a philosophical perspective, isn't a pandemic like this a good argument for why we sometimes NEED a strong federal govt. response, and why we need to fund things like the CDC, and why we need to have things like federal (or state) stockpiles of medical supplies? By the way, I'm not against many libertarian ideas- the amount of money our govt. spends on the military is just absolutely insane in my opinion- but I would think pandemics offer a strong counter argument to the idea that govt. should be as small as possible.


Everything cannot be solved by small government. The idea of small government is appealing but it is not working as it should. A lot of humans are not wired for that and I feel Millennials and Gen Z are worse. We will have more disasters like this.

The small government ideas have to be kept alive though and we need to gradually move towards them. If you have big organizations, then you have something like WHO who got bloated and ineffective.

There is no perfect answer.


I'm ok with the general philosophical argument as far as it pertains to business; service industry; manufacturing.

I understand the problems with over-regulating and over-sized government. Chicago is a good example of local over-regulation gone bad. You can't legally set up a home-made pie stand in the city because you have to go through some insane loopholes to get the permit and there's some fear that people are gonna be selling home-baked goods with poison in them or something (whereas... your local McDonalds is 100% clean and safe from an employee mangling in your secret sauce?).

But as far as health care goes, I don't know why it all falls together under the umbrella of "business." Sure, leave the plastic surgery, back massages and teeth whitening to private business, but just as we have a national military that "protects" us from bullets and bombs, there should be a national health branch that protects citizens from diseases as well as natural disasters (hurricanes, floods, etc.). It's not a complex concept, and it's not an invasion of privacy. There should be a federal level health branch, and there should be a local level that deals with day-to-day basic ER health. It's like having a fire department or police department. If your house happens to catch on fire due to some reckless fools lighting bonfires next door, I don't see why it would make sense to hire private fire-fighting services to take out the fire. It makes sense for the sirens to go off immediately and put the fire out. Just like if a COVID-19 virus is wiping out all the old people in your city and putting thousands of people on ventilators, than there should be a 'don't-wait, turn on the sirens and save people' health-care force.

The big problem is that health care is lumped into one big industry. Truth is that P.T., chiropractice, brain surgery, pills, psychiatry, viral prevention, ER, dietitians, etc. all these things are drastically different and shouldn't be lumped under "1 health policy."

Create federal and local health branches that take care of the serious **** that needs immediate attention, and save the long-term care, ankle sprains, sore backs, therapy, etc. for the private industry. It would surely streamline responses like this. Of course presidents like Trump would want to take them apart. Why doesn’t he take apart the military then? What’s so special about it? Shouldn’t that be privatized too, in his and Rand Paul’s opinion?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#207 » by dice » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:19 am

EazyAsPie wrote:
dice wrote:
EazyAsPie wrote:
Lol the irony. A person getting told by a liberal that he must be a Trump fan because he brings no substance to the topic while at the same time bringing exactly zero substance to the topic. #theperfectexampleofalib :lol:

uh...he wasn't commenting on the topic. he was commenting on the behavior of the poster. get the difference?


No I don't.

there's your problem

You gonna be mad when he wins again?

nope. but i'll feel bad for the human race, including many of his supporters who continually shoot themselves in the foot either to spite others or in a desperate hail mary attempt to shake up the system and improve their own lot in life. the former group loves a good troll ("u mad?", "own the libs!"). and it's the latter group that carnival barkers appeal to. trump checks both boxes

it's a sad day when in the year 2020 a huge chunk of americans still haven't gotten over losing the civil war...and losing the battle to keep women subjugated...and losing countless civil rights battles...and losing the battle to keep gays in the closet...etc. ad nauseum. and then a black guy gets elected PRESIDENT? hoo boy. that's when the long dormant underbelly of the nation springs into action. they think they're getting their revenge by electing a "white nationalist" with a woman problem, but they don't realize that he's just using them to further his own economic agenda. in most cases, at the expense of theirs. i mean, this is a guy who attended chelsea clinton's wedding for god's sake. a compulsive liar in the name of self-interest. but as long as he's their ally in the culture war, it's aaaaaall good
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#208 » by Dresden » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:21 am

MrSparkle wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
Dresden wrote:I'm also just curious from a philosophical perspective, isn't a pandemic like this a good argument for why we sometimes NEED a strong federal govt. response, and why we need to fund things like the CDC, and why we need to have things like federal (or state) stockpiles of medical supplies? By the way, I'm not against many libertarian ideas- the amount of money our govt. spends on the military is just absolutely insane in my opinion- but I would think pandemics offer a strong counter argument to the idea that govt. should be as small as possible.


Everything cannot be solved by small government. The idea of small government is appealing but it is not working as it should. A lot of humans are not wired for that and I feel Millennials and Gen Z are worse. We will have more disasters like this.

The small government ideas have to be kept alive though and we need to gradually move towards them. If you have big organizations, then you have something like WHO who got bloated and ineffective.

There is no perfect answer.


I'm ok with the general philosophical argument as far as it pertains to business; service industry; manufacturing.

I under the problems with over-regulating and over-sized government. Chicago is a good example of local over-regulation gone bad. You can't legally set up a home-made pie stand in the city because you have to go through some insane loopholes to get the permit and there's some fear that people are gonna be selling home-baked goods with poison in them or something (whereas... your local McDonalds or Sharks is 100% clean and safe from an employee mangling in your secret sauce?).

But as far as health care goes, I don't know why it all falls together under the umbrella of "business." Sure, leave the plastic surgery, back massages and teeth whitening to private business, but just as we have a national military that "protects" us from bullets and bombs, there should be a national health branch that protects citizens from diseases as well as natural disasters (hurricanes, floods, etc.). It's not a complex concept, and it's not an invasion of privacy. There should be a federal level health branch, and there should be a local level that deals with day-to-day ER health. It's like having a fire department or police department. If your house happens to catch on fire due to some reckless fools lighting bonfires next door, I don't see why it would make sense to hire private fire-fighting services to take out the fire. It makes sense for the sirens to go off immediately and put the fire out. Just like if a COVID-19 virus is wiping out all the old people in your city and putting thousands of people on ventilators, than there should be a 'don't-wait, turn on the sirens and save people' health-care force.

The big problem is that health care is lumped into one big industry. Truth is that P.T., chiropractice, brain surgery, pills, psychiatry, viral prevention, dietitians, etc. all these things are drastically different and shouldn't be lumped under "1 health policy." Create a nationalized system that takes care of the serious ****, and save the therapy sessions for the private industry (although mental health is a serious thing in itself).


The NYT ran an excellent article the other day about how bad the public health infrastructure is in this country. Whichever agency runs this (Health and Human Services), requested 5 billion to update their computer systems and modernize their facilities recently. They were given 20 million. That is just plain ridiculous that as rich of a country as we are can't come up with 5 billion for such a vital area. Yet we can spend 13 billion for one lousy aircraft carrier. The pentagon routinely gets more money than they ask for. Just insane what our priorities are.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#209 » by PlayerUp » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:47 am

Dresden wrote:That is just plain ridiculous that as rich of a country as we are can't come up with 5 billion for such a vital area.


We're 23 trillion in debt.

Dresden wrote:Yet we can spend 13 billion for one lousy aircraft carrier. The pentagon routinely gets more money than they ask for. Just insane what our priorities are.


No doubt the federal government has a long history of poor spending.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#210 » by dice » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:40 am

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:That is just plain ridiculous that as rich of a country as we are can't come up with 5 billion for such a vital area.


We're 23 trillion in debt.

now compare 5 billion to 23 trillion
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#211 » by Dresden » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:46 am

The point is, there's some things worth spending money on- like making sure we don't have to send our doctors and nurses in to treat patients during a pandemic without enough frickin' masks, and there are other things that are practically like flushing money down the toilet (spending 650 Billion a year on the military).
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#212 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:16 am

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:That is just plain ridiculous that as rich of a country as we are can't come up with 5 billion for such a vital area.


We're 23 trillion in debt.

Dresden wrote:Yet we can spend 13 billion for one lousy aircraft carrier. The pentagon routinely gets more money than they ask for. Just insane what our priorities are.


No doubt the federal government has a long history of poor spending.


Big business and IMF countries run on debt.

USA can keep borrowing money they don't have because they have a strategic military and economic advantages over every other country in the world, just like a rich guy who can keep buying expensive properties (because he's rich enough to pay the loans). And unlike regular Joe, there are "too big to fail" safety nets for the big boys.

The funny thing is that there is literally no way to tax a population and corporations next to nothing (which libertarians/GOP wants) and eliminate debt. The cost of running a military complex and financial institution like the USA is beyond comprehension, so it's an economic comicality to always hear "conservatives" throwing fits about the US debt (while also having their presidents run that debt up astronomically high due to Wall St, bank loan, pharma/food/oil/plane/auto subsidies and real estate bursts and self-imposed war meddling). At the same time, it's comical hearing liberals and libertarians talk about "just de-funding" the military complex, when there's a whole lot more involved in that **** show (frankly America is "in too deep" to do a radical make-over and trade the bombs for hearts, especially with the distant aggressors racing forward).

It's completely out of "our" hands. USA runs on debt. Always has, always will. It's not even a partisan thing. One side just likes to make the ludicrous argument that they (GOP) push fiscal responsibility while DEMs don't, which is nonsense. There is no evidence of any GOP presidency actually managing a balanced and responsible budget. Actually there's no administration ever in the 20th century that didn't run a high debt; just a couple of presidents exceptionally raised the debt (relatively/%), such as FDR, Woodrow, Bush and Reagan and Obama. At-least Obama made half-respectable efforts and doing something for the public good, instead of trying to destroy the EPA, public education and public healthcare. For a guy who promised to eliminate US debt in 8 years, it's pretty funny that Trump is perhaps on course for one of the top-3 largest deficits ever after just 1 term... while also not having any national medical, education or civil help programs in place. Pretty wild stuff. We might even be losing USPS in about 6 months. Groovy. Wait a minute, I think I just figured it out - he's gonna balance the budget by filing for bankruptcy. :oops: Unfortunately my most stupid ideas/fears have been coming to fruition, so who knows?

What's dangerous is the current situation with high debt and low interest, which Trump had been pushing for 3 years straight. This COVID-19 thing was the lighter, but the fire-wood was already ready to light up. They need to get economic heads to salvage this situation, not bankrupt-ors. Unfortunately it's looking like Congress and the White House have become the Taj Mahal casino.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#213 » by Mech Engineer » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:19 am

Dresden wrote:The point is, there's some things worth spending money on- like making sure we don't have to send our doctors and nurses in to treat patients during a pandemic without enough frickin' masks, and there are other things that are practically like flushing money down the toilet (spending 650 Billion a year on the military).


Yeah...the small government and multiple operators/interests have been responsible for screwing up our healthcare system. If we have shortage of doctors, then encourage kids to become one. It is ridiculous how difficult it is to get into medical school.
That way, you don't have long waiting times. You can have tiers of doctors based on their ability.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#214 » by tedwilliams1999 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:42 am

Mech Engineer wrote:
Dresden wrote:The point is, there's some things worth spending money on- like making sure we don't have to send our doctors and nurses in to treat patients during a pandemic without enough frickin' masks, and there are other things that are practically like flushing money down the toilet (spending 650 Billion a year on the military).


Yeah...the small government and multiple operators/interests have been responsible for screwing up our healthcare system. If we have shortage of doctors, then encourage kids to become one. It is ridiculous how difficult it is to get into medical school.
That way, you don't have long waiting times. You can have tiers of doctors based on their ability.


I'm currently a physician, and I absolutely agree with all the above. I had decent grades and extracurriculars, but even then I needed a master's degree and multiple rounds of applications before I was finally accepted into a couple of medical schools. All I have to show for it now is 500k of student loan debt and a flimsy N95 that I have to keep re-using.

Within the medical community, a large majority of the 'old guard' are extreme conservatives, since they grew up in an era where big money could still be made in a variety of medical fields. The newer age of physicians, however, are almost universally liberal when it comes to social and Healthcare issues. That's definitely encouraging, especially now that the curtain is pulled back to the public on just how broken our healthcare system is.

We have newer medical schools popping up pretty frequently, but the bottle neck effect is occurring at the federal level. Without proper funding from the government, we can't increase the number of residency training slots in the country to keep up with the increasing number of medical school graduates. So now what we have are a ton of MD's and DO's who can't get jobs, and who are stuck with an insurmountable loan burden.

It's mind boggling to me why some of these issues haven't been addressed previously. I have no clue how to fix our healthcare system, but just making a few basic changes to the federal budget could play a significant role in alleviating some of the stress on our system. I understand and respect the idea of small government, but I truly believe that healthcare is not the place to take such shortcuts.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#215 » by dice » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:15 am

tedwilliams1999 wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
Dresden wrote:The point is, there's some things worth spending money on- like making sure we don't have to send our doctors and nurses in to treat patients during a pandemic without enough frickin' masks, and there are other things that are practically like flushing money down the toilet (spending 650 Billion a year on the military).


Yeah...the small government and multiple operators/interests have been responsible for screwing up our healthcare system. If we have shortage of doctors, then encourage kids to become one. It is ridiculous how difficult it is to get into medical school.
That way, you don't have long waiting times. You can have tiers of doctors based on their ability.


I'm currently a physician, and I absolutely agree with all the above. I had decent grades and extracurriculars, but even then I needed a master's degree and multiple rounds of applications before I was finally accepted into a couple of medical schools. All I have to show for it now is 500k of student loan debt and a flimsy N95 that I have to keep re-using.

jesus. hope that you eventually get some degree of relief through federal legislation. and also that it's manageable for you in the interim

we simply do not value an educated populace in this country. if we did, we wouldn't allow so many people to have to choose between the pursuit of knowledge and avoiding the burden of its cost
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#216 » by Dresden » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:18 am

MrSparkle wrote:
At the same time, it's comical hearing liberals and libertarians talk about "just de-funding" the military complex, when there's a whole lot more involved in that **** show (frankly America is "in too deep" to do a radical make-over and trade the bombs for hearts, especially with the distant aggressors racing forward).
[/quote]

Can't think of anything less funny than the fact that the US spends more on the military than all the other nations in the world put together, yet we can't afford to take care of our own people when it comes to health care.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#217 » by dice » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:30 am

Image

i would be amazed if trump has the gall to fire fauci. and it's pretty tough to amaze me these days
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#218 » by dice » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:36 am

Dresden wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
At the same time, it's comical hearing liberals and libertarians talk about "just de-funding" the military complex, when there's a whole lot more involved in that **** show (frankly America is "in too deep" to do a radical make-over and trade the bombs for hearts, especially with the distant aggressors racing forward).


Can't think of anything less funny than the fact that the US spends more on the military than all the other nations in the world put together, yet we can't afford to take care of our own people when it comes to health care.

not quite, but it amazingly close to being true. as of a few years ago we accounted for 37% of the world's military spending (we have 4% of world's population and 29% of the world's wealth)

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/apr/24/bernie-sanders/sanders-says-us-military-spending-bigger-next-12-n/

i may have said this here already, but how does it make sense that the government spends so much taxpayer money on soldiers protecting us but somehow spending taxpayer money on doctors protecting us is anathema?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#219 » by moorhosj » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:12 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:Yeah...the small government and multiple operators/interests have been responsible for screwing up our healthcare system. If we have shortage of doctors, then encourage kids to become one. It is ridiculous how difficult it is to get into medical school.
That way, you don't have long waiting times. You can have tiers of doctors based on their ability.


It’s simple economics. The American Medical Association controls the process to become a doctor (supply). It is in their economic interest to make it harder and harder to become a doctor because it makes them more valuable. You see this a lot in industries that require a certification (think CPAs, lawyers)

This is also why you have the AMA lobbying against giving Nurse Practitioners more responsibilities https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-statements/ama-statement-va-proposed-rule-advanced-practice-nurses. It is a risk to their business model. It’s not about safety or cost, it’s about economics and power.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#220 » by EazyAsPie » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:35 pm

dice wrote:
EazyAsPie wrote:
dice wrote:uh...he wasn't commenting on the topic. he was commenting on the behavior of the poster. get the difference?


No I don't.

there's your problem

You gonna be mad when he wins again?

nope. but i'll feel bad for the human race, including many of his supporters who continually shoot themselves in the foot either to spite others or in a desperate hail mary attempt to shake up the system and improve their own lot in life. the former group loves a good troll ("u mad?", "own the libs!"). and it's the latter group that carnival barkers appeal to. trump checks both boxes

it's a sad day when in the year 2020 a huge chunk of americans still haven't gotten over losing the civil war...and losing the battle to keep women subjugated...and losing countless civil rights battles...and losing the battle to keep gays in the closet...etc. ad nauseum. and then a black guy gets elected PRESIDENT? hoo boy. that's when the long dormant underbelly of the nation springs into action. they think they're getting their revenge by electing a "white nationalist" with a woman problem, but they don't realize that he's just using them to further his own economic agenda. in most cases, at the expense of theirs. i mean, this is a guy who attended chelsea clinton's wedding for god's sake. a compulsive liar in the name of self-interest. but as long as he's their ally in the culture war, it's aaaaaall good


Haha. I couldn't imagine living day to day with those thoughts. It must really terrify you to see Biden as the libs nominee. Yikes.

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