Assembling Core 2.0

[TheSuzerain]

I think it wise to consider on-the-floor contributions beyond being adults. Thad is playing great for the most part. How much does it cost to replace that? Temple is on a reasonable contract. Why get rid of that?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

It costs an MLE contract any given year to replace Thad.

Temple is the definition of a replacement level vet.

Find an MLE player that plays Thads position(including small ball center), does what Thad does productivity wise (offense and defense) and influences the younger guys the way he does. Then I will agree.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Jamychal Green was signed on an MLE to the Nuggets.

Lakers signed Harrell on an MLE. DJJ to Portland. Ibaka to Clippers.

Like I said, you can get "Thad" level players for the MLE every year.

[TheSuzerain]

Giving THT 4/90 is a move that gets any GM fired.

The man is a career 31% 3 point shooter (playing next to lebron and AD!), and his advanced stats are below average on offense. Solid defender though.

His advanced stats tell me that he gets to the rim, where he finishes at an extremely high level, whenever we wants. His finishing has been pretty crazy this season, he can finish with either hand and uses his tank body to protect the ball and turn insane shots against good contests into easy layups. Yes, the shooting - and especially the self-creation part of it - isn't 100% there yet, but there are flashes of high-level shot-making off the dribble and the spot-up shooting is already solid. He's also already pretty good at creating shots for others with his drives. THT is also, as you say, solid as a defender right now. With his length, strength and athleticism he should be a pretty big positive on that end once he loses the ball-watching habits he has right now a little bit.

In short, I'd rather have a GM who's willing to get fired for taking a shot at a 20-year-old wing with that combination of skills, length and strength than a GM who doesn't get fired for building a fringe play-in/playoff, no upside team around guys like Drummond or Oladipo.

Bingo. If we're going to change this team's trajectory, it's going involve taking some risks.

To me, THT is the right kind of risk. Over-paying for a player with genuine upside because he's a young, multi-talented wing with plus physical traits seems like a great use of our cap space to me.

Keep in mind, we're collectively paying Sato, Thad, and Felicio over $30 million dollars. I don't know how you can look at that and then act like paying THT $23 million a year is an unthinkable investment.

[LateNight]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

[Tetlak]

Giving THT 4/90 is a move that gets any GM fired.

The man is a career 31% 3 point shooter (playing next to lebron and AD!), and his advanced stats are below average on offense. Solid defender though.

His advanced stats tell me that he gets to the rim, where he finishes at an extremely high level, whenever we wants. His finishing has been pretty crazy this season, he can finish with either hand and uses his tank body to protect the ball and turn insane shots against good contests into easy layups. Yes, the shooting - and especially the self-creation part of it - isn't 100% there yet, but there are flashes of high-level shot-making off the dribble and the spot-up shooting is already solid. He's also already pretty good at creating shots for others with his drives. THT is also, as you say, solid as a defender right now. With his length, strength and athleticism he should be a pretty big positive on that end once he loses the ball-watching habits he has right now a little bit.

In short, I'd rather have a GM who's willing to get fired for taking a shot at a 20-year-old wing with that combination of skills, length and strength than a GM who doesn't get fired for building a fringe play-in/playoff, no upside team around guys like Drummond or Oladipo.

Bingo. If we're going to change this team's trajectory, it's going involve taking some risks.

To me, THT is the right kind of risk. Over-paying for a player with genuine upside because he's a young, multi-talented wing with plus physical traits seems like a great use of our cap space to me.

Keep in mind, we're collectively paying Sato, Thad, and Felicio over $30 million dollars. I don't know how you can look at that and then act like paying THT $23 million a year is an unthinkable investment.

I agree with both of you somewhat, the issue here lies with the amount of money you're both willing to spend on a completely unproven player who we have only seen play among the league's very best.

AAV of 23 mil/year is insanely high for a roll of the dice on a guy who frankly has yet to prove anything. Now maybe he plays his way into these discussions realistically as the season progresses, but there's no way you can justify that contract for him at this point in time.

[sco]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

Just because one of the bottles of milk in the fridge is a week past expiration and doesn't taste as bad as the other bottles that are a month past expiration, doesn't mean there isn't a lot of unspoiled milk to be found out there.

[TheSuzerain]

His advanced stats tell me that he gets to the rim, where he finishes at an extremely high level, whenever we wants. His finishing has been pretty crazy this season, he can finish with either hand and uses his tank body to protect the ball and turn insane shots against good contests into easy layups. Yes, the shooting - and especially the self-creation part of it - isn't 100% there yet, but there are flashes of high-level shot-making off the dribble and the spot-up shooting is already solid. He's also already pretty good at creating shots for others with his drives. THT is also, as you say, solid as a defender right now. With his length, strength and athleticism he should be a pretty big positive on that end once he loses the ball-watching habits he has right now a little bit.

In short, I'd rather have a GM who's willing to get fired for taking a shot at a 20-year-old wing with that combination of skills, length and strength than a GM who doesn't get fired for building a fringe play-in/playoff, no upside team around guys like Drummond or Oladipo.

Bingo. If we're going to change this team's trajectory, it's going involve taking some risks.

To me, THT is the right kind of risk. Over-paying for a player with genuine upside because he's a young, multi-talented wing with plus physical traits seems like a great use of our cap space to me.

Keep in mind, we're collectively paying Sato, Thad, and Felicio over $30 million dollars. I don't know how you can look at that and then act like paying THT $23 million a year is an unthinkable investment.

I agree with both of you somewhat, the issue here lies with the amount of money you're both willing to spend on a completely unproven player who we have only seen play among the league's very best.

AAV of 23 mil/year is insanely high for a roll of the dice on a guy who frankly has yet to prove anything. Now maybe he plays his way into these discussions realistically as the season progresses, but there's no way you can justify that contract for him at this point in time.

That he has yet to prove anything is precisely why he is potentially available.

There are no young, proven, and highly talented players that are ever available in free agency.

[MGB8]

It costs an MLE contract any given year to replace Thad.

Temple is the definition of a replacement level vet.

Find an MLE player that plays Thads position(including small ball center), does what Thad does productivity wise (offense and defense) and influences the younger guys the way he does. Then I will agree.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Jamychal Green was signed on an MLE to the Nuggets.

Lakers signed Harrell on an MLE. DJJ to Portland. Ibaka to Clippers.

Like I said, you can get "Thad" level players for the MLE every year.

Harrell on the MLE was just because it was the defending champions in LA. Ditto Ibaka to the clipps. Bulls couldn't get either for the MLE. In fact, I don't think that the Bulls could get JaMychal Green, who isn't as good as Thad, for the MLE - he went to a team viewed by most as a contender.

List me "Thad level" players who went to bad, clearly non-playoff teams for the MLE....

(aside from passable centers - who yes, can be had cheap).

[Pax for Prez]

Giving THT 4/90 is a move that gets any GM fired.

The man is a career 31% 3 point shooter (playing next to lebron and AD!), and his advanced stats are below average on offense. Solid defender though.

His advanced stats tell me that he gets to the rim, where he finishes at an extremely high level, whenever we wants. His finishing has been pretty crazy this season, he can finish with either hand and uses his tank body to protect the ball and turn insane shots against good contests into easy layups. Yes, the shooting - and especially the self-creation part of it - isn't 100% there yet, but there are flashes of high-level shot-making off the dribble and the spot-up shooting is already solid. He's also already pretty good at creating shots for others with his drives. THT is also, as you say, solid as a defender right now. With his length, strength and athleticism he should be a pretty big positive on that end once he loses the ball-watching habits he has right now a little bit.

In short, I'd rather have a GM who's willing to get fired for taking a shot at a 20-year-old wing with that combination of skills, length and strength than a GM who doesn't get fired for building a fringe play-in/playoff, no upside team around guys like Drummond or Oladipo.

Bingo. If we're going to change this team's trajectory, it's going involve taking some risks.

To me, THT is the right kind of risk. Over-paying for a player with genuine upside because he's a young, multi-talented wing with plus physical traits seems like a great use of our cap space to me.

Keep in mind, we're collectively paying Sato, Thad, and Felicio over $30 million dollars. I don't know how you can look at that and then act like paying THT $23 million a year is an unthinkable investment.

Horton-Tucker has piqued the interest of many scouts around the league. Fortunately for the Lakers, other teams are limited in what they can offer. Since he's an "Arenas Rule" restricted free agent, the Lakers can pay up to about $10.3 million in the first year, while other franchises would be capped at about $9.5 million.

The rule is complex, allowing for a potential massive raise in the third and fourth years of a contract worth up to about $83 million. But that's a lot to ask for a player averaging just 7.2 points per game. If he continues to impress, Horton-Tucker will get a raise, perhaps in the $5 million to $8 million range per season.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2930326-where-should-la-lakers-cut-costs-with-potential-100m-tax-bill-next-season

[TheSuzerain]

Find an MLE player that plays Thads position(including small ball center), does what Thad does productivity wise (offense and defense) and influences the younger guys the way he does. Then I will agree.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Jamychal Green was signed on an MLE to the Nuggets.

Lakers signed Harrell on an MLE. DJJ to Portland. Ibaka to Clippers.

Like I said, you can get "Thad" level players for the MLE every year.

Harrell on the MLE was just because it was the defending champions in LA. Ditto Ibaka to the clipps. Bulls couldn't get either for the MLE. In fact, I don't think that the Bulls could get JaMychal Green, who isn't as good as Thad, for the MLE - he went to a team viewed by most as a contender.

List me "Thad level" players who went to bad, clearly non-playoff teams for the MLE....

(aside from passable centers - who yes, can be had cheap).

Bulls absolutely could have signed Green. He didn't even sign for the full MLE. So you're plainly being disingenuous there.

Same with DJJ who was rumored to be a target of ours as well.

Mavs signed Seth Curry on an MLE last year and he was great. Aminu and DRose signed for MLE as well.

MLE is literally supposed to be a middle-of-the road NBA salary. So of course you can sign fringe starters/quality bench pieces with it. That's what Thad is.

[TheSuzerain]

His advanced stats tell me that he gets to the rim, where he finishes at an extremely high level, whenever we wants. His finishing has been pretty crazy this season, he can finish with either hand and uses his tank body to protect the ball and turn insane shots against good contests into easy layups. Yes, the shooting - and especially the self-creation part of it - isn't 100% there yet, but there are flashes of high-level shot-making off the dribble and the spot-up shooting is already solid. He's also already pretty good at creating shots for others with his drives. THT is also, as you say, solid as a defender right now. With his length, strength and athleticism he should be a pretty big positive on that end once he loses the ball-watching habits he has right now a little bit.

In short, I'd rather have a GM who's willing to get fired for taking a shot at a 20-year-old wing with that combination of skills, length and strength than a GM who doesn't get fired for building a fringe play-in/playoff, no upside team around guys like Drummond or Oladipo.

Bingo. If we're going to change this team's trajectory, it's going involve taking some risks.

To me, THT is the right kind of risk. Over-paying for a player with genuine upside because he's a young, multi-talented wing with plus physical traits seems like a great use of our cap space to me.

Keep in mind, we're collectively paying Sato, Thad, and Felicio over $30 million dollars. I don't know how you can look at that and then act like paying THT $23 million a year is an unthinkable investment.

Horton-Tucker has piqued the interest of many scouts around the league. Fortunately for the Lakers, other teams are limited in what they can offer. Since he's an "Arenas Rule" restricted free agent, the Lakers can pay up to about $10.3 million in the first year, while other franchises would be capped at about $9.5 million.

The rule is complex, allowing for a potential massive raise in the third and fourth years of a contract worth up to about $83 million. But that's a lot to ask for a player averaging just 7.2 points per game. If he continues to impress, Horton-Tucker will get a raise, perhaps in the $5 million to $8 million range per season.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2930326-where-should-la-lakers-cut-costs-with-potential-100m-tax-bill-next-season

Yep. The hope for us would be they extend Schroeder on a decent deal before the end of the season (this is fairly likely I'd say), and then we put them in a tough spot for THT by offering a very aggressive deal.

That could potentially lead them to choosing to retain Caruso and/or Harrell instead of THT.

[Am2626]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

This has less to do with Carter Jr. and more to do with Center being a big weakness for the Bulls. If people are thinking consolidation trade, would be interesting to see what the team would look like with pairing Zach and Karl Anthony Towns. Bulls should have enough pieces to make an offer to Minnesota without including Zach or Pat Williams.

[LateNight]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

This has less to do with Carter Jr. and more to do with Center being a big weakness for the Bulls. If people are thinking consolidation trade, would be interesting to see what the team would look like with pairing Zach and Karl Anthony Towns. Bulls should have enough pieces to make an offer to Minnesota without including Zach or Pat Williams.

Agree on the center part - disagree on KAT. I think you need more D from your center if Zach is one of your lead players.

[TheSuzerain]

KAT is probably the next superstar that comes to mind as far as availability. Still might be a couple years out though.

If he gets down to 2-3 years left on his deal, and the TWolves are still nowhere, then he could easily demand a trade.

[Am2626]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

This has less to do with Carter Jr. and more to do with Center being a big weakness for the Bulls. If people are thinking consolidation trade, would be interesting to see what the team would look like with pairing Zach and Karl Anthony Towns. Bulls should have enough pieces to make an offer to Minnesota without including Zach or Pat Williams.

Agree on the center part - disagree on KAT. I think you need more D from your center if Zach is one of your lead players.

Yeah I can see that. Would love for the Bulls to try and take a flier on Mo Bamba. His value is low and he has all the traits of being a beast defensively. I’m sure the Bulls can get him without giving up much. Let Carter Jr. earn his playing time versus just having it handed to him.

[MrSparkle]

What's the end game, trading for a guy like Bamba? He's been injured most of his career, and fallen short of draft expectations. Just like Lauri, Wendell and Hutchison. The big-man problem can be addressed in the off-season with a few cheap FAs. This team is missing more than half of its front-court rotation.

This year is a burner year. You don't go into a season expecting to win games when your primary guys are very injury prone, and half your roster consists of G-League talent with $1-3m UFA value: Felicio, Kornet, Valentine, Hutchison and Arci. Furthermore, Coby and Patrick are clearly starting despite being bench-caliber prospects.

Step 1 is letting these penny-stocks expire, or dumping them. Valentine's showcased his better qualities, but even then, you realize he's more of a 10-15 guy than a top-8 rotation player on any competent squad. GarPax succeeded in creating a pseudo Hinkie tank-job while stocking just enough veteran talents each year to lock us out the top-3 pick range.

One thing I anticipate will be different is this concept of "drafting and building a farm" that GarPax cultivated. Name one rookie that they traded within their first 2 years? They entirely over-relied on the draft to the point of absurdity, choosing to even fill their "contending" bench with junk rookie prospects over cheap and proven veteran FAs. You can not have a roster with over 10 prospects, half of whom were drafted with your picks or throwaway salary filling junk from elsewhere. The timelines and salaries make no sense, the gamble of each pick doesn't make sense.

We're going to have a busy FA off-season, and it's going to be cool having a decent team in 2 years that's not built on a sandbox.

[TheSuzerain]

What's the end game, trading for a guy like Bamba? He's been injured most of his career, and fallen short of draft expectations. Just like Lauri, Wendell and Hutchison. The big-man problem can be addressed in the off-season with a few cheap FAs. This team is missing more than half of its front-court rotation.

This year is a burner year. You don't go into a season expecting to win games when your primary guys are very injury prone, and half your roster consists of G-League talent with $1-3m UFA value: Felicio, Kornet, Valentine, Hutchison and Arci. Furthermore, Coby and Patrick are clearly starting despite being bench-caliber prospects.

Step 1 is letting these penny-stocks expire, or dumping them. Valentine's showcased his better qualities, but even then, you realize he's more of a 10-15 guy than a top-8 rotation player on any competent squad. GarPax succeeded in creating a pseudo Hinkie tank-job while stocking just enough veteran talents each year to lock us out the top-3 pick range.

One thing I anticipate will be different is this concept of "drafting and building a farm" that GarPax cultivated. Name one rookie that they traded within their first 2 years? They entirely over-relied on the draft to the point of absurdity, choosing to even fill their "contending" bench with junk rookie prospects over cheap and proven veteran FAs. You can not have a roster with over 10 prospects, half of whom were drafted with your picks or throwaway salary filling junk from elsewhere. The timelines and salaries make no sense, the gamble of each pick doesn't make sense.

We're going to have a busy FA off-season, and it's going to be cool having a decent team in 2 years that's not built on a sandbox.

Bamba is one to keep in mind once he hits unrestricted free agency. Orlando could potentially just not make a QO to him if he's entirely out of their rotation.

[mtron32]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

This has less to do with Carter Jr. and more to do with Center being a big weakness for the Bulls. If people are thinking consolidation trade, would be interesting to see what the team would look like with pairing Zach and Karl Anthony Towns. Bulls should have enough pieces to make an offer to Minnesota without including Zach or Pat Williams.

Agree on the center part - disagree on KAT. I think you need more D from your center if Zach is one of your lead players.

Jimmy exposed those boys in Minnesota for having no heart, we don't need anymore of that on this squad

[TheSuzerain]

Towns is a monster and a legitimate superstar talent.

We should be positioning ourselves to trade for him in 2-3 years to become a contender.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Read on Twitter

I want Mark to come defend this tweet. I don't dislike Carter, but I have no idea how last nights game reflects on him. I'm sure we are missing Carter in general because he's better on defense - but we were also getting owned by ANYONE with length and size while Carter was still on the court.

This has less to do with Carter Jr. and more to do with Center being a big weakness for the Bulls. If people are thinking consolidation trade, would be interesting to see what the team would look like with pairing Zach and Karl Anthony Towns. Bulls should have enough pieces to make an offer to Minnesota without including Zach or Pat Williams.

our all star was owned by Len in that last possesion. Outsmart and outplayed him defensively

[MGB8]

Jamychal Green was signed on an MLE to the Nuggets.

Lakers signed Harrell on an MLE. DJJ to Portland. Ibaka to Clippers.

Like I said, you can get "Thad" level players for the MLE every year.

Harrell on the MLE was just because it was the defending champions in LA. Ditto Ibaka to the clipps. Bulls couldn't get either for the MLE. In fact, I don't think that the Bulls could get JaMychal Green, who isn't as good as Thad, for the MLE - he went to a team viewed by most as a contender.

List me "Thad level" players who went to bad, clearly non-playoff teams for the MLE....

(aside from passable centers - who yes, can be had cheap).

Bulls absolutely could have signed Green. He didn't even sign for the full MLE. So you're plainly being disingenuous there.

Same with DJJ who was rumored to be a target of ours as well.

Mavs signed Seth Curry on an MLE last year and he was great. Aminu and DRose signed for MLE as well.

MLE is literally supposed to be a middle-of-the road NBA salary. So of course you can sign fringe starters/quality bench pieces with it. That's what Thad is.

No, you are the one who is CONSTANTLY disingenuous with the ridiculous hyperbole. Green went to Denver to play for a winner. Bulls had no shot.

And since you can't answer my question about a Thad level player (because there aren't good examples of players going to bad teams for the MLE that are veterans who are good enough to start on a number of NBA teams at any position other than lumbering center)... you just distract.

But thanks for reminding everyone about Derrick Jones Jr., a guy who you pumped and who signed on a playoff team for the MLE... and is putting up 7 points and 4 rebounds in 27 minutes on garbage efficiency and poor defense.